GameBanshee Forums

Two writes:
I really don't see how anyone can object to save points 5 min. away from one another. Are you really telling me you don't want to replay 5 min? Ever? Wouldn't you rather replay 5 min. every once in a while if it increased your sense of tension, realism, and participation in the game? I would, for one!

I'd have no problem with that, @Two, but why can't other people simply disagree with you, and everybody be right? Isn't this a matter of personal taste?

Originally posted by two:
<STRONG>Even saves 5 min. apart are FAR better then what we have now, which is insta-save everwhere anytime. This is the issue.</STRONG>

What's the point of that? I don't even use the Quicksave every two hours, and I doubt there's anyone that uses it every five minutes.

Originally posted by fable:
<STRONG>I'd have no problem with that, @Two, but why can't other people simply disagree with you, and everybody be right? Isn't this a matter of personal taste? </STRONG>

Because I'm ALWAYS RIGHT --

BWAAAAA HAAAA HAAAA HHAAA BWWAAAA HAAA HAAAA

[more evil laugher here, then ...]

BWAAA HAAA HAA HAAAAAA BWAAA HAAA HAAA HAAAA

[end evil laughter]

I think it has something to do with too much time spent in graduate school (humanities); people were so open-minded, so incapable of making any judgement about right and wrong that you were left with a totally flat playing field. Everything was ok. Nothing was right, wrong, better, worse -- it's all just opinions. "Moby ****" "better" than "Gilligan's Island episode 4?" You think so? Nah -- that's just your opinion. Etc. And no, I am not exaggerating here; I met more than one person that thought (and argued) this way. Sometimes in very sophisticated terms; but at the end of the day they are still wrong, I maintain. Their loss, really; I'll gladly take Melville to bed while they search the TV for grist for their critical mill.

When it comes to game design, one aspect of which I think we are discussing (quick save), I think there IS a right/wrong, better/worse result. A good game is generally a well-balanced game. Even the worst-designed CRP game has its adherants; they will be happy to say it's fun, great, they don't want the rule changed that says you can start the game at either 1st, 5th, or 50th level (and the game does not change to meet the different initial power levels). If they were to claim this extreme example of a game is well-designed, they would, simply, be wrong. Yes, it's their opinion. Yes they like killing orcs with a level 50 figher, but no, they are wrong with their opinion. The game is badly designed -- period.

Similarly I think there IS a "better" and "worse" when it comes to quicksaves. The infinite "save as often as you like" is less balanced then some other more complex schemes (like save points, however close/far away).

Now, I might also be wrong. I think I'm closer to right. But there certainly is an answer. It might be too small to measure - possibly. Maybe QS just is not that big a deal. But I think if the game made it even a LITTLE harder to save, it would be a better game overall. If the game made it hugely more difficult to save, it would be a worse game. I'm looking for the golden mean. As it is, QS is over in "infinity" (save as often as you like).

But it's probably not a big deal, no.

Originally posted by Xyx:
<STRONG>What's the point of that? I don't even use the Quicksave every two hours, and I doubt there's anyone that uses it every five minutes.</STRONG>

I was just talking about people that use quicksave to go back instantly and run through a dialogue again changing the options; or re-picking a failed lock; or re-memorizing a scroll; etc. those sorts of cheesy things. There ARE people that do that a lot, beleive me.

I know it ain't you Xyx dude! I got your back! No bad blood here!

What's wrong with reloading the game to copy a scroll to your spellbook. I just always write scroll with an intelligence of 25, you fail about 1 in 30. But I think it is fair to reload if you want in this circumstance because I think it is ludicrous that you can be a specialist mage and fail to write scrolls to your spellbook in the school you are specialized. That bothers me. O.K., I'm a diviner, I think I'll write identify in my spellbook. Hmmm, it didn't work. What's the point of being a specialist mage? You can't use certain spells and can still fail when trying to write spells in your school of magic. Maybe I'm being a little too uptight but this is one of my greatest pet peeves in the game.

If it's just for a scroll, save yourself the time to reload by setting your difficulty option to one level easier than normal, write the scroll (100% success), then reset the difficulty to core rules (or whatever you normally use).

Since i got ToB i've forced myself to NOT do this...it means Imoen still can't cast Time Stop, and she just FINALLY successfully learned spell trigger.

Hey this is a good thread here's MY experience with the dreaded "quicksave":

since my machine bites and gameplay slows down after any save other than an autosave, i try to only save when i'm done playing. It definitely alters my gaming style...i tend to overbuff my characters before a battle, and i definitely take time to scope ahead with an invisible Imoen before charging into a room. For me the less i save, the more exciting the play. And, it seems, a lot of the really tough battles in ToB ARE preceeded by an autosave. So far I've only had to redo one major secion: the maze in watcher's keep. Because for EVERY battle i have Korgan going in beserk (for the immunities), Imoen hanging back invisibly 'til we assess the threat, and Vico casts True Seeing about 5 times a day. It also means we have no gold (!!), and our reputation (despite being an evil party i like to keep it around 14 or so) is around 8. So be it.

So, do what you want to, but if you find the game getting dull or easy try not saving in the middle of a screen.

NB: I made an exception to my self-imposed limitation for the deck of many things, and for the really tough battle when you unlock the imprisoned one' seal. Anyone trying to wean themselves off the quicksave will have to decide these for themselves. After all, there are definitely parts of the game designed with the quicksave feature in mind (or was i supposed to let my protagonist stay female after a sex change during some wild surges?)

Just my opinion, but quicksave does kill atmosphere. But my NPC's are happy: i take less chances and they don't die (or even get hurt) as often.

Originally posted by two:
<STRONG>I was just talking about people that use quicksave to go back instantly and run through a dialogue again changing the options; or re-picking a failed lock; or re-memorizing a scroll; etc. those sorts of cheesy things. There ARE people that do that a lot, beleive me.

I know it ain't you Xyx dude! I got your back! No bad blood here!</STRONG>

Uhm... Er... Ahhh...

I do all of that!

Don't worry about me, though. I won't like the game or this discussion any less whatever you think of it.

I consider CRPGs to be fundamentally different from PnP, and don't go around pretending they're the same thing (or even meant to be *Xyx puts up his flame retardant shield*).

I was thinking... How are save points supposed to stop me from abusing a save/reload to...

• finally pickpocket Drizzt in BG1
• get maximum Hit Points on leveling up
• always write scrolls
• get the best stuff from the Deck of Many Things (took me a while! )

All of these things can be done whenever you damn well feel like them. So, if you just had your one-per-two-hours save point, what's to stop you from trying to level up and reload just about endlessly until you get it "right"?

I consider the whole concept of saving to be some meta-game aspect. I gladly leave it up to the designers to build the adventure I'm playing, but I'll damn well decide how I play it.

Guess what I don't do if I don't feel like saving?