Point Buy

Kayless · Post by **Kayless** » Wed Mar 20, 2002 6:58 am

Point buy also prompts people to actually think about character creation and not just roll and hope for the best (and re-roll, and re-roll, ad infinitum

). Now, instead of having people posting how uber-powerful their characters are, we can have illuminating posts on why certain stats were chosen (and the benefits/disadvantages therein).

Go point buy!

Mr.Waesel · Post by **Mr.Waesel** » Sun Mar 24, 2002 2:33 pm

I like rolling in stead of point-buy. The only games that i played with point-buy were PS:T (in wich it sucked) and MM6/MM7 (where you had potions and shrines and stuff, so it didn't mattter.) So i agree: go with rolling! That way not all adventurers in the entire world have the same stat totals (wich would be silly) and since the chance of rolling straight 18's are really small (for six stats, it would 0.012860082 %, wich is 1 in 7776) and only freaks would sit behind their computer with that chance, waiting for that "perfect" roll. (sorry XYX)

Kayless · Post by **Kayless** » Sun Mar 24, 2002 7:56 pm

Originally posted by Mr.Waesel
I like rolling in stead of point-buy. The only games that i played with point-buy were PS:T (in wich it sucked) and MM6/MM7 (where you had potions and shrines and stuff, so it didn't mattter.) So i agree: go with rolling! That way not all adventurers in the entire world have the same stat totals (wich would be silly) and since the chance of rolling straight 18's are really small (for six stats, it would 0.012860082 %, wich is 1 in 7776) and only freaks would sit behind their computer with that chance, waiting for that "perfect" roll. (sorry XYX)

You'd be amazed how many freaks play computer games.

I liked PS:T (as did many others) so I don't see how that proves that point buy is inferior. And what's wrong with having the same stat totals? How does that reflect on the PC's indivisual ability? Say for example, Dingus likes his fighter min/maxed and has pumped all his points into Str, Con, and Dex, neglecting the other stats. Wingus on the other hand likes a more balanced fighter and so has divvied up the points more evenly. Dingus is the better combatant but is going to be in trouble when the enemy starts casting. Wingus isn't as powerful as Dingus but is less susceptible to mind altering spells, etc. Same stat totals, different characters. And then there's Joe Blow who doesn't even play a fighter but a wizard instead. So his stats are going to be quite different from Wingus and Dingus.

Dice rolling is not needed any more. In the past there were useless stat zones where you would need high stats to get bonuses. Now bonuses start at 12. Besides, no Infinity Engine game even has a "rolling" system. What the IE engine does is not "rolling," its free spend. You press a button until you get enough points and then you redistribute them amongst your other stats. It is a randomized free spend which is more closely related to point buy then rolling. If the IE games had dice rolling, but no reallocating of points, would you still be complaining?

Go Point Buy!

Mr.Waesel · Post by **Mr.Waesel** » Mon Mar 25, 2002 2:59 am

IFirst off: i didn't say PS:T sucked, i said the point-buy in PS:T sucked. about the infinity engine: if it feels like rolling, it's a-ok with me.

Kayless · Post by **Kayless** » Mon Mar 25, 2002 5:32 am

Huh. I didn't really see a problem with PS:T's point buy system. Care to elaborate?

Mr.Waesel · Post by **Mr.Waesel** » Tue Mar 26, 2002 3:55 am

You start out really weak, and it takes a long time to get your required stat (e.g intelligence for mages) up to max, while maintaining the other stats in a way that you don't get killed by the first thug in the game.

Kayless · Post by **Kayless** » Tue Mar 26, 2002 4:30 am

Hmmm, I didn't really experience a problem (but then again my Nameless One was always more combat oriented, rather than a spellcaster). By the time the NO even obtained the ability to become a mage he already had sufficient points in his stats to survive combat and still branch out a little. Different strokes, I guess.

Mr.Waesel · Post by **Mr.Waesel** » Wed Mar 27, 2002 5:51 am

Yeah, i guess so too.

About IWD2: I heard from a friend of mine you could already download it from somewhere (as he did, but he has already removed it from his harddrive) (a bit vague, but i've yet to ask him the details) is this true?

Kayless · Post by **Kayless** » Wed Mar 27, 2002 6:58 am

If he really did download Icewind Dale II then it was through illegal warez. However, could it be possible that your friend downloaded Trials of the Luremaster instead? BIS released that free expansion for Heart of Winter online.

Mr.Waesel · Post by **Mr.Waesel** » Thu Mar 28, 2002 2:40 am

No, he specifically said "IWD 2".

Kayless · Post by **Kayless** » Thu Mar 28, 2002 3:45 pm

It had to be a warez copy then, if he was telling the truth ("warez" is the internet code word for free copies of proprietary software). It's dangerous to download warez due to the large amount of virus and bugs associated with it, but if you're lucky you can sometimes get a beta version of an unreleased game.

Obligatory legal warning: Warez is illegal and wrong. Recycle and stay in school kids.

The Stranger · Post by **The Stranger** » Fri Mar 29, 2002 9:39 am

Point System

I think that the point system will be great! I have been play DnD since '81 and I am so tired of rolling up characters! This will help me out immensely by removing the opportunity to spend hours rolling! I finally will get some sleep!

zzzzzzz....

Kayless · Post by **Kayless** » Fri Mar 29, 2002 5:37 pm

You're preaching to the choir, Stranger! Go point buy!

hwttdz · Post by **hwttdz** » Fri Mar 29, 2002 6:01 pm

I just checked out the IWD 2 website and in the forums people were talking about 30 points to distribute but in the game info I came across 16. 16 seems ridiculously low to me so I tend to believe the 30 more. Also it said all points are worth the same, eg. it costs one point to go from 10 to 11 but it also costs one point to go from 17 to 18.

Can someone clear up the number of points you start with?

Kayless · Post by **Kayless** » Fri Mar 29, 2002 6:50 pm

Last I heard it was going to be a 30 point non-scaling point buy.

The Stranger · Post by **The Stranger** » Thu Apr 04, 2002 1:46 pm

I guess that I am alone in thinking that a hero can be a normal person... All 10s is pretty good! Think about it. No negatives to your rolls and there are people that have worse stats than that in real life that are heros. Steven Hawkins comes to mind. I think that with 30 points in point buy, you will be able to make a really powerful character that will stand the test of time (and the bad guys!) With 30 pts, you get all 15's! That is huge! You would have a hell of a time rolling 6 15s as it is! Now, stop your whining and look for some good points to the game!

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Thu Apr 04, 2002 3:49 pm

Originally posted by The Stranger
I guess that I am alone in thinking that a hero can be a normal person... All 10s is pretty good! Think about it. No negatives to your rolls and there are people that have worse stats than that in real life that are heros. Steven Hawkins comes to mind. I think that with 30 points in point buy, you will be able to make a really powerful character that will stand the test of time (and the bad guys!) With 30 pts, you get all 15's! That is huge! You would have a hell of a time rolling 6 15s as it is! Now, stop your whining and look for some good points to the game!

I would tend to agree; though if you think about it, someone who travels around on adventures is likely to have at least some high stats.

Look at various people in our world that some might call heroes. I would estimate many of them having some stats much higher than the 'normal' person.

Stephen Hawking - Str6, Dex10, Con15, Int18, Wis18, Cha16

He may not do much in melee, but just give him a spell book.

Personally, I prefer rolling, though I don't mind the point buy so much. I especially didn't like what was in Arcanum, but it's not too bad in PS:T. I think the rolling gives you a more natural character. You roll the dice and you're stuck with what you rolled.

@Kayless, about IE games with dice rolling stats, perhaps what would be better is to limit the rerolling to one or two times. The point reallocation seems to me to reflect, though not perfectly, the PnP fairly well. In DnD, do you not roll your stats and then pic which stat the number goes to? The difference between the reallocation and this is that in reallocating, you can distribute more, but how good you can make your stats is still limited by the total of what you rolled.

I, for one, dont' have the patience to sit for hours rolling stats for my chars in the BG series and in IWD, so I tend to go with one of my first few rolls. With rolls, you can sometimes get great stats(such as my Halfling Assassin with stats 17, 19, 18, 18, 16, 18 in BG2), while at other times get barely above average scores(such as my friend in PnP who got 14, 14, 13, 13, 11, and 10). (My Halfling Assassin has the stats I rolled on my first and only reroll, btw.) Likewise, in real life, some people would naturally have very high stats while others would likely have much lower stats.

The Stranger · Post by **The Stranger** » Fri Apr 05, 2002 9:36 am

Sorry about my rude post, I just had gotten off of the BIS Boards and everyone over there is so agressive! Anyways, I agree with the fact that we all like to have exceptional characters to play. I guess my point is that the feats and such are there to balance out the characters. A fighter with 13/10/10/11/12/10 with a few feats becomes a unique and capable character. You don't necessarily need the high stats to make a good guy, but the help...

By the way, I think that Steven Hawking (sorry about the previous spelling) may have a lower Dex than 10. But I agree with all the other stats.

Mr.Waesel · Post by **Mr.Waesel** » Mon Apr 08, 2002 2:22 am

Yes, but give the fighter 13 int also, so he can get whirlwind attack.

@ Kayless:

Originally posted by Kayless
"warez" is the internet code word for free copies of proprietary software

I know

Originally posted by Kayless
It had to be a warez copy then, if he was telling the truth

I asked him, and he said it was the ***** newsgroup.

*****Moderator edit - not sure what this was and didn't want to go find out. Please don't discuss piracy or warez unless to say it is a bad, bad thing (as Kayless is doing).

Kayless · Post by **Kayless** » Fri Apr 12, 2002 5:15 pm

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn
I@Kayless, about IE games with dice rolling stats, perhaps what would be better is to limit the rerolling to one or two times. The point reallocation seems to me to reflect, though not perfectly, the PnP fairly well. In DnD, do you not roll your stats and then pic which stat the number goes to? The difference between the reallocation and this is that in reallocating, you can distribute more, but how good you can make your stats is still limited by the total of what you rolled.

People don't really expect parity in PnP RPGs, but demand it in online games. Point Buy is the only way to ensure equality in multi-player enviroments. The Icewind Dale series is the most online friendly of the Infinity Engine games (due to the lack of in-depth plot and no single protagonist). It’s not really fair when Johnny Twinkmeister comes online with his lucky “three 18” hackmaster while Joe Roleplayer's character doesn’t even have a single 18, let alone three. The 30 point non-scaling point buy is more than enough to produce good characters, but thankfully not any BG2 “no stat lower than 15” munchkins. To quote Martha Stewart: It's a good thing.

Originally posted by Mr.Waesel
I asked him, and he said it was the ***** newsgroup.

Can't say I'm familiar with it (but then again I'm not really into warez). Just remember that Game Banshee's policy is against software piracy and other illegal activities. Stay in school and don't do drugs.