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Assume the gear as given by Loffelur with the addition of the alt weapons (normal 2hs and a firetooth crossbow) and replace the 2nd ring by something. Do not assume he has no summon deva as Loffelur says "many G Whirlwind and more" .. Deva falls in the more category. Assume he wasn't a moron and has a decent spread of HLAs (at L32 he should have 15 or so total). What else was unclear about his gear? Both sides should have access to a stack of sup healing potions. If you need more potions than that then he gets more potions too.

I don't think this gear is at all optimal but its a reference point and optimal gear might make life kind of rough.

@Littiz: We need at least a brief description of weapons/tactics and a bit of analysis on how the fight will come out in your favor. Also remember no hacks means no GM hack.

inquisitor, cleric spells - my fault. but he could really have some devas. the casting time would be 5 if keldorn can wear the amulet of power it would only be 4. (i have to restart a game with keldorn, long time ago since i last played with him...) btw i am quite shure keldorn can use skull of death. hmm, i think i have to restart a game right now before posting more propably false informations.

A man's duty

Now he can even change his equipment on the fly,
to unsummon my swords! IIRC, he had the Helm of Balduran...
We are really giving him too many advantages...
I have to surrender, then. The Deva would be enough, anyway.
IMHO a high level mage is needed to beat him, with these
assumptions, and the Cloak

But with a dual... ok, as you wish Glod.
Let's do the long way... *sigh*
This is my char, spell selection, choices of contingencies
and all.
Equipment:
Ioun Stone (just one),Celestial Fury, D'akkon Blade, Robe of Vecna,
Ring of Wizardry, Boots of Speed, Girdle of Strenght (any),
Amulet of Power, Improved Cloak of Prot. +2
HP: around 130. Consider the fighter levels, 24 hp if you cast
Find Familiar in ToB (ever noticed?) ecc. (I had 180 in the end, with a
card from the deck, Lum machine, Wong Fei's Stone and all....)
Let's not consider the Immunity to Normal Weapons, but Find Familiar
is a right for every mage...
Or take less HPs if you wish.

Once reactivated the Kensai, this char died only in two
circumstances (forcing me to reload):

-First time vs Improved Abazigal.
Two Dragons at once, she remained alone after a blink and
was hit by unavoidable stunning wing buffets by the TWO dragons
and their breaths killed her, as she didn't raise her protections..
-The FINAL Ascension battle. This needed a lot of reloads, but
if you've tried it, this is no surprising at all!!!!

In the rest of the game, she always, always survived
ANY fight, bosses or not, sorrounded by hordes of "whirlwinding"
fighters or not.
I only had to reload sometimes when Immie died, or when Sarevok was
not resurrectable...
I cannot even figure Keldorn as a problem....

Of course, reducing the level, we have to remove something,
and things would become a little harder.
Let's say level 12/16 so I can't be contradicted.
Being the defense the primary concern for this char (read the post..)
we'll remove the offensive or fancy spells when needed.

Removing the GrandMastery patch, as you ask, we have 3 attacks
per round. (not important, but I always strike first... Kensai
have a speed bonus and CF has already speed 1).

Now, the point is that practically every combat spell has 0 casting
time. This means you can cast them at the rate of 1/round without
being interrupted (this could happen only if YOU allow it, setting
autopause when hit and casting in that very pause...
In truth they should be considered "Spells_Casted_At_Will").
So, even if Keldorn takes the time to dispel them, every round
you can gain time and one or two free attacks.
Choose from:
Stoneskin (allright, this CAN be dispelled by Carsomyr), Imp.Invisibility,
Shadow Door, Prot.Magical Weapons, Mirror Image, Imp. Haste (so 6 attacks
round until dispelled) Mislead.
Then I have Minor Sequencer: Mirror Image + Blur
Sequencer: Mirror Image + Imp. Invisibility + Stoneskin.
Then I have at least the normal contingency, being level 16 I cannot
choose from level 6, so let's put there Shadow Door or Stoneskin.
As a LAST resort the Trigger: Imp. Haste, Tenser, Mislead.
(Hp doubled... you're healed... ahahahah)
Good moment to cast would be when he launches a whirlwind.
(I've done it many times in game), so he wouldn't be able
to use another special ability for that round.

IF, for some reason, he hits you twice, disengage him IMMEDIATLY.
If he has boots of speed as well, he can follow.
(In truth, even with boots of speed he should be slower because
of the complete armor, while the Kensai is free. But I'm not
sure how it is implemented with the boots, so let's say he's fast)
So stop, he reaches you, strike (you hit first, remember?)
Now, thinking about it, maybe you could even go for Hit and Run
tactics
Or maybe he could stop and use the crossbow... you could use
Melf's Meteor then, 10 attacks round, assuming he dispels them
fast, you'll deliver in any case more damage than his crossbow
(the cloak absorbs only the fire damage, the meteors have the highest
rate and you add the kensai bonuses.....)

But these are all hollows words. In truth I'd go for another tactic.
We start from a certain distance, you said.
I would cast Spell Immunity: Abjuration as first spell, then I would
run for a while, EVEN ACCEPTING SOME RANGED DAMAGE, then I would
cast Spell Immunity: Divination.
So all the spells listed above would have TEN times their effectiveness.
And let him summon his Deva. Who cares?
And when you're hasted....

Do I really need to add more?
Ok.
If he fails his save just ONCE, he gets stunned by CF...

I may seem arrogant, but I'm sure, if I was controlling the char,
it would be a win.
The Kensai/Mage has ALL the necessary: melee capabilities,
spells to help in any situation, quickness of action...
No match.

This all said without changing the chart!!!
If allowed to prepare for him, I would set the sequencer
Invisibility, Non Detection, Haste, so I would be really
faster, and cast all of my protections in safety,
then I would use the trigger Lower Resistance x3 and go
for melee.
When he's low on HPs.... Power Word: Stun!
This way I could even remove all of his gear and spare
his life, for my friend Aubrey!!!

For a regular mage, who can't harm him in melee, it's another
story

.....OOOooooooooof!!!!!

EDIT: hmmm, Inquisitors are immune to hold... now stun is another
thing, it has even a different symbol on the character screen...
But, if he's immune to stun too, then I'll have to kill him!
Sorry Aubrey!

That's some fine work there Littiz as usual...I'm sure a kensai/mage or fighter/mage could finish Keldorn off. But, as you say, the real challenge would be a low level (below 18th) ordinary mage.

In truth, even with boots of speed he should be slower

Do kensai get a movement bonus like monks? Other than that you'd be both the same running speed...crazy I know considering one is wearing full plate.

Not sure what you mean when you say Keldorn takes the time to dispell...he can dispell just by using his sword or by using his innate inquisitor ability which IIRC is very quick to cast.

I'll check and see if inquisitors are immune to the stun from CF.



EDIT No, inquisitors are not immune to stun from CF. (Imoen was the one dishing the damage out this time )

All checked. You're right, they have the same speed, though
it's stupid.. well, there's magic after all.
(I raised the question 'cause I'm quite sure that without magical items non-armored characters are faster)
He isn't immune to Power Word: Stun either, which I wanted to
spare his life!!

About the melee actions: of course I was trying to make order in
my own mind, his abilities are a little slower to cast, but the
trick would be to cast spells when he goes whirlwind, so his special
abilities are blocked for a round.
BUT I MADE AN ERROR: His True Sight lasts a while, so you'd gain
little advantage from illusionary spells, just a few seconds every time.
So the REAL strategy to follow would be (as I explained) cast the two Spell
Immunity, starting from abjuration, otherwise he could dispel the other one with dispel magic.
Doing so, we could win easily even with level 12/14, absolutely safe plan

Ahh, I'd forgotten about that spell immunity:abjuration...dispell magic would be useless for a while. Bravo!

As I said, kensai/fighter/mage should be able to do it but a better equipment selection by Loffelur might have made things different. I think that maze/6 hasted mord's swords is a tricky one though (although the rod of rezzing would have helped, ah well there's no point in what ifs), other than that Keldorn could run away himself - very unlike him I know - till the spell immunity combo had worn off.

ok, this is a bit lame but is it possible to beat a ravager +6 wielding keldorn? IIRC there is no protection and saves against the decapitation of ravager +6. so if keldorn uses whirlwind against the mage, fighter/mage, kensai/mage or whatever he quite shure wins. is there any protection against that?

Ravager+6

I've just read up on that weapon (wow, I am definitely spending some prof points on halberd this time round) and you're correct, there is no save. Jeez even the silver sword had a save against vorpal hits...

That is what prot from magical weapon is for. To be safe from vorpal hits that is.

does it also work against +5 or higher weapons?

Prot from magical weapons work against all magical weapons, even the +6 ones.

Still skeptical?!?!?!?!?!?!?

The Ravager?
First: We can have it too. It's not Carsomyr... We're even here.
Second: I thought random effects were out of the discussion, or I would
have used Greater Malison + insta-kill spell with the plain mage...
Third: Protection From Magical Weapons! And NO magic weapon
in the game can harm you at all (unlike Mantle). Vorpal effects, ah ah!!
Fourth: We don't plan to be hit in melee...

And NO, he CANNOT wait till Spell Immunity expires, 'cause we
cast Imp. Haste. Try with a character who already wears the Boots of
Speed, and see him fly. We just need to come close and we have
a sure hit, thanx to the quickness of our swords!

REASSUMING (All uninterruptable 0 casting time spells):
-Cast Spell Immunity: Abjuration on sight.
-Cast Spell Immunity: Divination while you run and maybe are hit by
his crossbow, or while he summons a Deva.
-If he keeps hitting you, the Contingency may trigger, Shadow Door
we said. You're invisible.If not this may happen later. No matter.
-Cast Improved Haste, Stoneskin, Mirror Image.
None of these counts as an attack, you're still concealed.
-Move close, cast Protection From Magical Weapons, attack.
Carsomyr or Ravager will be ineffective, if he switches to NORMAL
weapons he has to punch through the images and the stoneskins.
This will take at least 1 round, after which you could cast
Mislead, undispellable like all the rest, so he has to kill
the decoy, first!
Next round cast somewhat else, or the Trigger: Stoneskin, Improved Invisibility,
Mirror Image, which was set for my original character.
Then again you'll have Stoneskin, Protection From Magical Weapons..
Or throw in a KAI or Tenser for good measure.

We can hit him freely for somewhat like 8 rounds, with a Kensai
wearing a Girdle of Strenght and with SIX attacks/round....
You'll need half of this time.


INTERESTING NOTE: I tested the Ravager + 6 with Sarevok vs my Kensai/Mage.
Prot from Magical Weapons active, he tried 4 Greater Whirlwind,
only to say 40 times: "This one is invulnerable!"
Then he scored a vorpal hit WITHOUT the spell active, so my Kensai
should have died! I got even the animation of the soul that
flies away.....But she still lived!!!!!!!!!!
She had Death Ward granted by Hindo's Doom, apparently this protects
even against vorpal!
Kensai/Mages rock.

Nah no ravager, I was merely commenting on it as I hadn't really noticed it before...

Interesting about the deathward protecting from vorpal hits, must remember that when facing a certain floating skull's new guardians.

@ Littiz

ok, you convinced me that it will get tricky to win with keldorn. if not almost impossible. but maybe he could win using the surprising moment. if he uses war cry and you aren't prepared for this attack and also don't save keldorn will propably win.

@littiz The earlier strategy post I have to disagree with. Prot from Magic weapons is going to be essential to your defense against keldy. You're right about SI:abjure early in the fight to stop his dispel casts, but it won't stop carsomyr from raping your defenses, only prot from magic weapons will do that. Your most recent post is more along the lines of what I had in mind for this. Remember that he can also cast improved haste (3 times) so your chase him and hit him strategy is not sufficient as described as he will match your speed. You'll want to get invisible faster than your current plan otherwise you'll get smited. Also remember that at 12/14 you don't get spell trigger.

I never said anything about not alllowing strategies that rely on failed saves, you just have to show that there is a very large chance of him failing enough saves for you to win (say 95 percent).

@showoebli good point about warcry, I'd forgotten that one. Anyone know if fear protection defeats that or do we need stun protection? On the upside we'll have a good save vs spells with decent SoA gear so its not too likely to succeed.

maybe keldorn will have a chance by using different bolt and arrows and ww of course. if using right paralytic bolts, bolts of biting, arrows of detonation and arrows of dispelling could be a very powerful combination. a fighter / mage would have a disadvantage here if using the same strategy because i am quite shure he won't have put any points in crossbows or bows profiency and if he has then he will lack melee capability.

btw keldorn could always run a way by wearing the boots of speed.

@Glod: you're incorrect, with Spell Immunity: Abjuration Carsomyr
can't dispel anything. (as it should be!!!!)
I already tested that. You read the line: "Dispel Effects", but all
the enchantments of the char remain up and running.
Tested many times with a mage of level 15, so that the chance was
reasonable. Nothing was ever dispelled. Try yourself.

About the speed thing. Schwoebly, you missed something.
We BOTH have boots of speed, but when you cast Imp. Haste, you
run twice as fast, something like four times the normal speed.
So keldorn could not flee, unless he uses the Ring of Gaxx, as
Glod pointed out.
But the effect granted by the ring lasts VERY shortly.

So: I still say, let's just cast Spell Immunity: Abjuration on sight.
And KEEP running. He can hit you from distance, or use one of his
three haste and come close.
He can inflict damage, either case the spell immunities and other
things you cast WON'T be dispelled.
And when you go to 50% HPs, we'll have a contingencied invisibility,
which still he can't dispel.
After the few buffs I listed earlier, we strike.
He can flee only for a little time, in any case a Kensai/Mage is a
terrific "range fighter" thanx to Melf's Meteor, which gain the kit bonuses (and no waste of prof points!), while Keldy's ammo would break against our protections.

Maybe we can memorize one additional Melf's Meteor...

AND I REPEAT just to stay sure, we could start the battle with the sequencer:
Invisibility, Non Detection, Haste, and prepare safely!!!!!!

While with War Cry you catch me unprepared, now I'll check what
type of save would be needed, as Glod said, the chance of success
has to be reasonable...

@littiz: intereting. I had assumed Carsomyr worked the same as other dispel weapons --- SotM and dispel arrows both bypass immunity. Just did a test run on it and Carsomyr's dispel doesn't seem to work at all in my tests on party members so now I'm a bit baffled. Tested against level 12 characters with stoneskin/ironskin and nothing else and Carso just kept saying "dispel effects" but never actually dispelled. I could swear I've seen it work against NPCs, so whats the deal here? Anyone have a clue?

Anyway I think we definitely want to start off with a non-detcted invis either with items or spells or else we're going to be stunned and killed waiting on spell refresh that first round.

@ Glod; wow you're right, the SotM does dispel through spell immunity...how strange. I assumed weapons like that wouldn't dispel through SI:A, but you say even a lowly arrow of dispelling works. Maybe its something to do with the level the SotM dispels at...but the inquisitor's dispel level is 40 and that's as high as it gets.

Maybe we should re-equip Keldorn with heartseeker and 40 arrows of dispelling

Actually from the files the SotM dispels at power 0 IIRC. This is apparently a flag for no-fail dispel success. I should check it against a level 40 character to be sure but I have never seen it fail. Carsomyr is supposed to be level 15 dispel, or at least thats what it looks like from the file, but in testing against my level 12 characters it never worked so all I can say is wth.

In my own battle plan for this challenge I had assumed Carso to work like SotM but at dispel level 15, and I wound up with 9/14 = 1.75 million exp as about the cutoff for highly reliable victory. With Carso dispel not working we could probably do better but that makes Carso a really pitiful weapon. I have used Carsomyr in battle plenty and it seemed like it was working so now I'm just confused as to whats going on here. Does anyone have a test that shows Carsomyr actually dispelling something?

As for Keldy's gear, its far from the best but I didn't want to screw with Lofflur's choices beyond filling out the stuff he didn't specify. Maybe stage 2 of the challenge could be giving him better mage fighting gear but then we may just wind up sealing off the low level solutions and forcing the overpowered 9th+ spells.