Kayless’ Guide to Multi-Classing

Mianna · Post by **Mianna** » Tue Jun 25, 2002 5:29 am

Hi I´m back

I had a GREAT mid-summer fest and I have plenty of energy stored for writing

We had a Finnish voice actor for Scar so don´t really know what the voice is like. I have been thinking about this fighter/rogue thing and it souns better than a ranger/rogue. I´m playing a multi-class fighter/thief in BG2 and I must say that she is AWESOME! She is dual-wielding a katana and a shortsword. Looks soooo cool and katana gives out some pretty nasty damage.

Wonder if they have katanas in ID2...I do hope so!

Kayless · Post by **Kayless** » Wed Jun 26, 2002 6:39 pm

Originally posted by Mianna
I´m playing a multi-class fighter/thief in BG2 and I must say that she is AWESOME! She is dual-wielding a katana and a shortsword. Looks soooo cool and katana gives out some pretty nasty damage.

Wonder if they have katanas in ID2...I do hope so!

Unfortunately katanas are not going to be in IWD2 (last I heard).

Mianna · Post by **Mianna** » Thu Jun 27, 2002 1:01 am

Oooh

It is a perfect choise for my PC in BG2 from a roleplaying view: It´s long and a little bit curved but still quite light. I made this swashbuckler11/fighterXX char and it bothers me that my char. has 17 strength...well it doesn´t mean only muscle, but endurance and stamina as well...guess the extra points came from those two

Kayless · Post by **Kayless** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 3:06 am

Okay, I'm back after a three-week hiatus (fishing, playing Warcraft 3 and Neverwinter Nights among other things) and thought I’d bump the old multi-classing guide.

It’s worth mentioning that most of the tips on this topic are based on the PHB (Player’s Handbook) version of D&D classes. My experiences with NWN have taught me to be a bit wary of certain changes in the translation from PnP to video game (you'd have thought I'd have learned that lesson by now).

For instance, NWN decided that a Ranger gets free Ambidexterity and Two-Weapon Fighting (combined as a single feat called Dual Wielding) like in the PHB, but is unable to take the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat at later levels. Instead the feat is given automatically to Rangers at ninth level. This completely destroys the Rogue/Ranger multi-classing combo for NWN since taking 9 levels of Ranger is out of the question for a good min/max and going without Improved Two-Weapon Fighting hamstrings your Rogue at higher levels.

I had to totally reevaluate my multi-classing concepts (since there were some positive changes to certain classes as well). Here’s hoping IWD2 hues a little closer to the original material (or I'm going to have a hell of a time starting over from scratch).

Mirk · Post by **Mirk** » Mon Jul 22, 2002 1:06 pm

so (@kayless or anybody), how does a single level of barbarian sound for fighter types? for the movement and rage, hopefully able to pick up extra rages via feats, don't know if it's in the game, though.

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Jul 22, 2002 1:50 pm

Originally posted by Mirk
so (@kayless or anybody), how does a single level of barbarian sound for fighter types? for the movement and rage, hopefully able to pick up extra rages via feats, don't know if it's in the game, though.

You can get extra rage per day only by taking feats for that when your barbarian goes up levels--so if you take only one level, you don't get the chance.

Kayless · Post by **Kayless** » Thu Jul 25, 2002 11:48 am

Originally posted by Mirk
so (@kayless or anybody), how does a single level of barbarian sound for fighter types? for the movement and rage, hopefully able to pick up extra rages via feats, don't know if it's in the game, though.

If all you're gunning for is a lightly armored fighter type who can run fast and occasionally Rage then it works fine (though you may want to take two Barbarian levels for the Uncanny Dodge as well). Since fast movement only works when you're wearing light or medium armor (in the PHB anyway) you're going to want a decent Dex if you plan to take advantage of that, since you'll be in lighter armor than normal (if Mithral armor is implemented properly it works wonderfully for this sort of character, since it counts as one category lighter; i.e. Mithral Full Plate counts as medium armor instead of heavy). The Barbarian is one of the better classes to take a single level in, so go for it.

Mathurin · Post by **Mathurin** » Mon Sep 09, 2002 5:55 pm

First off I want to state that Kayless Im not picking fun, I think your group is cool. And being a computer game this means very little but from a roleplaying perspective how would you get around the Paladins Code of Conduct? A paladin can't knowingly work with people of evil persuasion, and unless your drow wizard has something that would give him permanent undetectable aligment, which would raise eybrows anyway, your paladin would know he was evil the first time he detected evil regardless of whether the drow was actually the target or not. Just wondering how you justified this.

Kayless · Post by **Kayless** » Tue Sep 10, 2002 1:15 am

Originally posted by Mathurin
First off I want to state that Kayless Im not picking fun, I think your group is cool. And being a computer game this means very little but from a roleplaying perspective how would you get around the Paladins Code of Conduct? A paladin can't knowingly work with people of evil persuasion, and unless your drow wizard has something that would give him permanent undetectable aligment, which would raise eybrows anyway, your paladin would know he was evil the first time he detected evil regardless of whether the drow was actually the target or not. Just wondering how you justified this.

I love getting into the intricacies of characters.

Generally, when I make a party I don’t assume they’re a group of guys who met in a tavern one day and decided to start adventuring together (or are all Luskan mercenaries, as IWD2 says). Everyone of them has (perhaps needlessly

) complex reasons for doing what they're doing.

The mercenary group that heroes arrived with originally had a mage amongst them, but he was killed during the attack on Targos. Now in my mind, the party needs a mage with them in order accomplish their mission. There are magical perils that lie ahead and to walk blindly forward without proper support would be suicide and endanger all the ten towns.

Nebuchadnezzar, for all his subtle insults and veiled threats, is not an overt danger to the group. As I stated before, he's is a follower of Vhaeraun (a background I came up with long before actually playing the game, so I was very pleased with myself when Malavon turned out to be one as well) and is at odds with standard drow. So he's only too happy to aid the group if it'll help the followers of Vhaeraun or stick it to the Lloth worshipers. He’s scum, but he never does anything blatantly evil in Durnkrag’s (the dwarven paladin) presence – Though that may be because Krag keeps a very close eye on him. Durnkrag’s hardly an idiot, and knows that Nabucco is a rat bastard, but he's too smart to let his personal code jeopardize thousands of lives (Lawful Good does not equal Lawful Stupid). Just as Malavon and Nym make persuasive cases to aid them, so does Nebuchadnezzar (in my mind they’re all part of the same cadre anyway) and since he generally tows the line, Durnkrag is content to let him live (for the time being). Also, Nabucco is slick enough to use Krag's paladin code and dwarven honor against him.

Nebuchadnezzer: "I am offering you my aid, hargluk. You cannot do this without me. Where is the honor in letting thousands die because you have a grudge?"
Durnkrag: "You invoke the name of honor but you have no conception of what it truely means."
Nebuchadnezzer: "Perhaps not abbil, but you do."
Durnkrag: *Sigh* "Very well. But know that should you step out of line even once, you’ll be dead before you hit the ground."

If their collaboration was long term they probably would end up killing each other (as Keldorn and Viconia of BG2 do, if left in a party together), but their mission is thankfully short enough that they can tolerate each other for its duration (even Keldorn and Viconia can stand each other for a little while). Eventually I believe they do end up enemies in the far future (they have a great history for two old foes), but that's a tale for another time.

Mathurin · Post by **Mathurin** » Wed Sep 11, 2002 9:02 am

Originally posted by Kayless
I love getting into the intricacies of characters. Generally, when I make a party I don’t assume they’re a group of guys who met in a tavern one day and decided to start adventuring together (or are all Luskan mercenaries, as IWD2 says). Everyone of them has (perhaps needlessly ) complex reasons for doing what they're doing.

I do as well, thats why I like to hear others descriptions.

(Lawful Good does not equal Lawful Stupid).

Hehe, I know Im a ten year veteran DM of tabletop D&D. I've even allowed such groups before but I always require good reasons of my players. That was a good idea, I would have been impressed if one of my players had said such a thing.

Kayless · Post by **Kayless** » Wed Sep 11, 2002 4:06 pm

Originally posted by Mathurin
I've even allowed such groups before but I always require good reasons of my players. That was a good idea, I would have been impressed if one of my players had said such a thing.

Thanks. I've been fortunate that most folks I've gamed with have been very good role-players. When everyone around you is great, it really raises the bar and inspires you as well. But it's almost as fun to be in a really bad gaming session as it is good (kind of like B-Movies that are so bad they're fun).

There was one night everybody was rolling fumbles, which resulted in some goofy role-playing and eventually brought on a debacle that added the term "Elven Swan Dive" into our gaming vernacular (I won't emotionally scar you with gory details, but it generally applies when a character attempts to perform some act of athleticism and fails miserably, usually resulting in serious bodily harm and/or death - It’s even more apropos when character is an elf or other being that likes to take itself seriously).

Mathurin · Post by **Mathurin** » Thu Sep 12, 2002 9:30 am

Same general thing happened in my game last night, an elven character in my party, for that matter the whole party is elves, got in a hurry chasing a thief that had just dove headlong over a 4 ft tall gate, rather than wait for the party rogue to check the suspicious gate, the guy they were chasing hadnt wanted to touch it after all, he just rolls a jump check to hurdle it. He failed miserably and caught his foot as he went over, resulting in his painful smashing into the ground face first. The gate had actually be trapped but just to humiliate the player I tossed the trap idea and just had the gate swing noisily open as his foot dragged it inward on his painful fall.

Kayless · Post by **Kayless** » Fri Sep 13, 2002 12:29 pm

LOL Mathurin

Stories like these are why I love role-playing.

Getting back on topic, has anyone discovered some new multi-classing combos not mentioned heretofore?

Gwalchmai · Post by **Gwalchmai** » Fri Sep 13, 2002 2:09 pm

Originally posted by Kayless
Getting back on topic, has anyone discovered some new multi-classing combos not mentioned heretofore?

Oh, great multi-class guru Kayless!

I'm afraid that I do not have any new combos for you, but I may be forced to experiment rather soon! I unknowingly created a half-elf pure ranger (level 6 right now), and she is not very effective! I am considering moving her to the back lines and giving the rest of her levels in Druid or Wizard. What do you think?

Ned Flanders · Post by **Ned Flanders** » Fri Sep 13, 2002 2:19 pm

I've been pretty happy taking a level of ranger for my bard. I'm sure the one level of ranger has been discussed ad infinitum around here but it works really well.

I'm of the persuation where, by roleplaying standards, if it doesn't make sense to rest, I don't do it. For instance in the warrens below the horde stronghold. Once it is cleared out, you can rest, but do you really have eight hours to kill learning spells. No. This and quick save are one of the long running arguments concerning ethical CRPGing.

Anyway, to the point. Seeing as how I try to complete mini adventures within the game before resting, I usually go heavy magic early on, pulling out all the strings and try to brawn it towards the end. That said, I usually save my bard spells, blur, mirror image, stoneskin, et al for as long as I can. Then when the group is winded and out of magic, the bard can step in kick a little hide. Tack on a haste and stoneskin, with the dual wielding and he bcomes a damage soak that can dish it out as well. He wasn't nearly as good on the offensive until I took a level of ranger.

So, while it may have already been beat to death concerning the ranger level, here is a little anecdote where it has worked. Power to the minstrels.

Kayless · Post by **Kayless** » Fri Sep 13, 2002 2:35 pm

Originally posted by Gwalchmai
Oh, great multi-class guru Kayless! I'm afraid that I do not have any new combos for you, but I may be forced to experiment rather soon! I unknowingly created a half-elf pure ranger (level 6 right now), and she is not very effective! I am considering moving her to the back lines and giving the rest of her levels in Druid or Wizard. What do you think?

Ooh, this is a disaster! You have a character with more than one level of ranger! Three is salvageable, but 6?! You're doomed!!!

Seriously, all is not lost.

You have a lot of options open to you since Half-Elves share the lenient multi-classing rules of humans. I wouldn't go with a spell-casting class though, since they really need to stay single classed in order to get better spells. So putting aside the druid and wizard for a moment let's consider other options. One of the martial classes would probably be a good choice. Switching to a barbarian for instance, will stiffen your ranger quite a bit (with Rage, Uncanny Dodge, and better Hit Points) while allowing you to maintain similar wilderness skills, so your character will still be rangerish. The fighter is great too, giving you lots of bonus feats and access to Weapon Specialization (And it'll make you feel like Drizzt).

You could also go with the rogue but chances are you already have one in your party (though they are great backup warriors - Flanking foes while your tanks take the brunt of the assault).

Originally posted by Ned Flanders
I've been pretty happy taking a level of ranger for my bard. I'm sure the one level of ranger has been discussed ad infinitum around here but it works really well.

So, while it may have already been beat to death concerning the ranger level, here is a little anecdote where it has worked. Power to the minstrels.

Amen to that.

The ranger is a perfect compliment for lightly armored classes like the rogue and bard (note: I usually like to take a few rogue levels with my bards, to make them sneakier and little tougher as support personnel).

Gwalchmai · Post by **Gwalchmai** » Fri Sep 13, 2002 4:18 pm

@Kayless - maybe my Ranger should switch to Bard? I understand that the high level bard spells are not all that much to look at, so....

But you may be right. A Barbarian might help her tanking abilities....

[er... why would I want to have a worn-out, stereotypical character like Drizzt? Isn't he a bit of a cliché?

]

baileyatbrats · Post by **baileyatbrats** » Fri Sep 13, 2002 4:32 pm

Hi.
I'd stick with a fighter class too. Even a 6th level Ranger isn't entirely useless, but inless you're looking to start a spell caster who won't quite reach maximum levels, then just go for a fighter or barbarian.
(Unless of course you are woefully under spelled [magiced?]in your party and need someone who can cast the occasional magic missle or fire ball.)

With that said.... Make him a monk. at lest you'll have fun with the ghi.

Kayless · Post by **Kayless** » Fri Sep 13, 2002 5:35 pm

Originally posted by Gwalchmai
@Kayless - maybe my Ranger should switch to Bard? I understand that the high level bard spells are not all that much to look at, so.... But you may be right. A Barbarian might help her tanking abilities....

Bards are pretty weak overall, so I usually only play one for role-playing reasons. My advice is to stick with the barbarian or fighter.

Originally posted by Gwalchmai
[er... why would I want to have a worn-out, stereotypical character like Drizzt? Isn't he a bit of a cliché? ]

Yes but he's a munchkin cliché (at least in the novels).

Originally posted by baileyatbrats
With that said.... Make him a monk. at lest you'll have fun with the ghi.

"Everybody was Kung-Fu fighting..."

baileyatbrats · Post by **baileyatbrats** » Fri Sep 13, 2002 5:52 pm

Hey. That's Spiderman and Mary Jane's song. This might be off topic.

I haven't actually started playing, but I set up my characters.

I went for much role play and not much fire power. [1/2 orc monk (m/c to rogue). Halfling Brabarian. Gold Dwarf fighter (m/c cleric) are the only muscle then Teifling bard, human mage, and elf druid.] Hoping to wow them with a stunning array of feats and skills really. (no stunts)

Kayless I took your advise and am Rangerless. (Maybe m/c to one for two weapon later)

Yep.