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@CE:

Lobsters also have pain receptors.

Their method of preparation is indeed quite a grisly fate to face.

Of course, cattle also possess pain receptors. That nice steak came from a ruminant that had to suffer. I think I can see how vegans become vegans...

Of course, wait until they discover that plants have pain receptors, too.

Yep. Calvin and Hobbes is one of the all-time greats IMHO. Not so good as the Far Side, but still a masterpiece.

I've gotta go now, so seeya all tomorrow.

See you later Ode

@ CE

Thats what I was trying to say, you go out to have a good time. And then they make you choose which one you want to boil.

With crabs we tend to freeze them first, when we go out fishing. well crabbing actually . A lot more humane as oppossed to just throwing them in the pot

As for the balut, that reminds of the kava? That traditional drink which they have in the Pacific islands. Fiji I think. Its suppose to be really strong.

Bye Ode, see you later.

@Chanak: I can certainly see why vegans make the choice they do, especially considering how the animals we eat are kept and transported.

Currently it is thought that a living being need to have a nervous system to experience pain, however, we know very little about how plants function, and they do have receptors, hopefully not to perceive any pain

@Tamerlane: So freezing is better than boiling then alive? Good, I'll remember that.

Originally posted by C Elegans
@Tamerlane: So freezing is better than boiling then alive? Good, I'll remember that.

Well...umm I hope it is. We boil them afterwards, but they don't put up a fight. So I think its like putting them to sleep or something. I not really sure if they die or not.

Mind you it does get freaky at night, when your planning a late midnight snack and you open the freezer and these beady eyes are staring at you.

Damn, rambling on again

@Tamerlane: I have to say my knowledge about the crustacean nervous system is limited, but althought they have nociceptors (pain receptors) they don't have a centralised brain like mammals have, that register pain. Probably, cooking them alive is not as painful as it sounds to us, the question is, how painful is it? I've heard it takes some 30-40 seconds before the animal dies, will it loose "consciousness" before that like most mammals would do? I have to check what's known about crustacean pain experience (easily done, I'll just ask someone at the motor-sensory lab )

I do however believe freezing them first is a good idea to be on the sure side, freezing is not painful (it wouldn't be to us either).

Yeah, thats why I prefer freezing.

I didn't expect the detailed answer though

How cool

@CE:

I can certainly see why vegans make the choice they do, especially considering how the animals we eat are kept and transported.

Indeed. I've given thought to becoming one myself, on occasion. However, I'm not convinced that plant matter alone is the "ideal" diet. Considering that our bodies are designed to consume both plant and animal matter - and there are elements of plants our own bodies can do nothing with, anyway - I'm utterly convinced that I'm supposed to be an omnivore.

I have to say my knowledge about the crustacean nervous system is limited, but althought they have nociceptors (pain receptors) they don't have a centralised brain like mammals have, that register pain

This is true of most arthropods, I think. I like to think of them as efficient little organic robots, capable of carrying on even in the face of dismemberment. Such things normally incapacitate a mammal, for I believe that pain is the incapacitating agent. It's possible that the "pain" they feel is localized, and not transmitted throughout their rather simple nervous system.

Currently it is thought that a living being need to have a nervous system to experience pain, however, we know very little about how plants function, and they do have receptors, hopefully not to perceive any pain

I wonder how plants become aware of other stimuli, besides sunlight. They do, in fact, react to a wide range of external factors. The evolution of colorful flowers, alone, is enough to convince me that something's up. Those flowers attract a wide variety of organisms, chiefly insects, that aid them in reproduction.

It takes SYMian magic...

...to start a thread with TOILET (and all the schema that go along with it...) then easily transform it to FOOD and POLITICS (afa vegans feel about it)...

*drinks his San Miguel and eats his balut*

As for the balut, you are not suppose to look at it while eating. Just add a little salt, suck the amniotic fluid (tasty!) then start munching (sorry about the term, Ode ) the unborn chick.

Adventures in Sanitation to Political Science

@Maharlika:

to start a thread with TOILET (and all the schema that go along with it...) then easily transform it to FOOD and POLITICS (afa vegans feel about it)...

LOL! I was thinking about that, too. Is that a part of the "insanity of SYM?"

You know...those topics are intimately related. They flow naturally from one to the other.

Balut!

I imagine that the amniotic fluid is similar in flavor to a standard egg white. So, how would you describe the flavor of the embryo? Does it taste like chicken?

Re: It takes SYMian magic...

Originally posted by Maharlika

As for the balut, you are not suppose to look at it while eating. Just add a little salt, suck the amniotic fluid (tasty!) then start munching (sorry about the term, Ode ) the unborn chick.

I feel sick!

A belated welcome to this twisted place, Chanak!

@Maharlika, A classic tale of miscommunication ahahaha


As for the politics part,
I think the point CE is making is that the way we treat animals is wrong as opposed to the eating of them. For example, Cows fed in stalls become so obsese they cannot stand, or chickens who are fed in tiny cages and have thier toes grow around the bars, only to reform, ironically linking the chicken to its prison.
Personaly, I agree with Chanak. The human body is designed to eat meat, and vegetable matter. The process of how we get them should be natural to however, not a process of convience and mass corporations.

@ CE how do you know the plants don't scream when the combine comes for them them?

Free-Ranging Meandering

@Obsidian:

For example, Cows fed in stalls become so obsese they cannot stand, or chickens who are fed in tiny cages and have thier toes grow around the bars, only to reform, ironically linking the chicken to its prison. Personaly, I agree with Chanak. The human body is designed to eat meat, and vegetable matter. The process of how we get them should be natural to however, not a process of convience and mass corporations.

I've tasted the difference between your standard "mass produced" chicken, and one that was allowed to forage on both feed and whatever it could find outside, in the sunshine. The difference is astounding. The free-range chicken actually has flavor. Their eggs are better, too.

@Maharlika: I bet you'd like free-range chicken egg balut better.

Most people probably aren't aware, but laying hens that exhaust their egg production are consigned to the slaughter house, where they become meat chickens. The trade-off is simple: mass-production for quantity, or freedom for quality. I imagine that the enviroment (and high-cholesterol feed) that the chickens are subjected to directly impacts our own health. However, I'm not one for a "cause," so you won't see me hugging chickens.

@Tamerlane: I actually checked a couple of animals wellfare webside, and the method they recommended as the most humane, was like you do it - freeze, then boil. So you're on the safe side

Originally posted by Obsidian
I think the point CE is making is that the way we treat animals is wrong as opposed to the eating of them. For example, Cows fed in stalls become so obsese they cannot stand, or chickens who are fed in tiny cages and have thier toes grow around the bars, only to reform, ironically linking the chicken to its prison.
Personaly, I agree with Chanak. The human body is designed to eat meat, and vegetable matter. The process of how we get them should be natural to however, not a process of convience and mass corporations.

@ CE how do you know the plants don't scream when the combine comes for them them?

Obsidian is correct, I am an omnivore and the human body is certainly adapted to an omnivore diet. However, vegans often rise the point that although we have evolved to omnivores, we now have a choice where we can choose to quit eating meat for moral reasons. I agree that we can, but I haven't made that choice simply because I don't think it is immoral to eat other animals. The immoral thing is to inflict pain and suffering on the creatures we eat, and that's where transportations, caging and methods of killing enter the discussion.

Re plants screaming - maybe they do scream, in a planty fashion, that we can't hear. Like Chanak points out, there is a lot we do not know about plant functioning, and it is a facts that plants can react to far more stimuli than light and heat.

posted by Chanak
This is true of most arthropods, I think. I like to think of them as efficient little organic robots, capable of carrying on even in the face of dismemberment. Such things normally incapacitate a mammal, for I believe that pain is the incapacitating agent. It's possible that the "pain" they feel is localized, and not transmitted throughout their rather simple nervous system.

First, welcome here Chanak Like you say, arthopods in general have no centralised nervous system like a brain, instead their nervous system consists of several ganglia, ie "lumps" or groups of cells. However, pain is a signal with a survival value, and also a lobster or a spider should feel some sort of discomfort towards for instance fire or dismemberment. As I said, I must ask the people at the sensory & motor lab when I come back to work

I wonder how plants become aware of other stimuli, besides sunlight. They do, in fact, react to a wide range of external factors. The evolution of colorful flowers, alone, is enough to convince me that something's up. Those flowers attract a wide variety of organisms, chiefly insects, that aid them in reproduction.

My guess is that it's a lot of chemical signalling going on in plants, that we don't fully understand. Most likely, a lot of other signalling we don't understand is also going on

Re: It takes SYMian magic...

Originally posted by Maharlika
As for the balut, you are not suppose to look at it while eating. Just add a little salt, suck the amniotic fluid (tasty!) then start munching (sorry about the term, Ode) the unborn chick.

Ewwww. Actually I think the main reason it sounds disgusting is because it's raw (I assume...) - I wouldn't eat a normal egg raw, or any meat or fish, so I definitely wouldn't eat that

Originally posted by Chanak
You must have had the prawns (we call a certain kind of shrimp a prawn, such as a tiger prawn) served breaded, then. More flavorful than the prawn, however, is the crab. More flavorful than either one, certainly, is the lobster. That's IMO, naturally.

Mmmm, scampi... Love the stuff, but you can get prawns with everything but the meat removed, so you they don't look so bad. I did actually have some whole prawns at a Thai restaurant recently, I must be getting more adventurous. Maybe one of these days I will get around to trying crab and lobster... maybe when I'm in Oz, since fresh seafood is more readily available in the coastal cities than here in middle England

Starfish? I didn't know they were eaten. They don't have a chance to regenerate, then. How sad.

It's the only time I've seen one served, I guess it's probably not that common.

@Georgi:

I suppose I could wax poetic on any kind of food, really. Let's face it, I love to dine.

Er, except for Balut. My southeast Asian friends were raised with it, but I was not. I prefer my eggs unfertilized, thank you.

Mmmm, scampi... Love the stuff, but you can get prawns with everything but the meat removed, so you they don't look so bad. I did actually have some whole prawns at a Thai restaurant recently, I must be getting more adventurous. Maybe one of these days I will get around to trying crab and lobster... maybe when I'm in Oz, since fresh seafood is more readily available in the coastal cities than here in middle England

Oz? LOL, makes me think of a certain movie. Where/what is Oz?

Originally posted by Chanak
I suppose I could wax poetic on any kind of food, really. Let's face it, I love to dine.

Don't we all?

I prefer my eggs unfertilized, thank you.

Same here, I must say...

Oz? LOL, makes me think of a certain movie. Where/what is Oz?

Oh, sorry... Oz is what we call Australia Although I hear it is also full of munchkins

Our Prime Minister being the most obvious example...

@ Ode

LOL, they had to learn sooner or later

Although munchkins were friendlier to people who arrived in their country without the proper papers and didn't automatically lock them up in detention centres...