The options to play evil in NWN were -weak-, to say the least.
-Cross
OK, what do you hate about NWN? (very long)
Great thread! I think NWN is a good game but nothing stunning. I feel the same way about it as I did with Darkstone a few years ago, which is interesting because the two games have much in common - mainly the graphics/perspective, the lack of difficulty and the fact that you control one character and semi control another. Clearly the multiplayer/DM aspect of NWN should make NWN a more interesting game long term, but I am focused on the single-player game right now because that is what came in the box I paid $50 for.
Here are my complaints, with what I think are the most serious problems first.
1. Difficulty. I find most encounters just way too easy. I usually play a fighter but I purposefully avoided fighter, ranger, paladin and barbarian because I'd already read comments about the game being easy. First I tried playing a druid, but I got bored because my panther and Tomi did all the work and I maybe got a swing in occaisionally. Then I tried a monk. I knew a monk might make the game too easy so I purposefully started with non-optimal attributes. The monk was very challenging at first, until about level 5, and then I had so much AC that nothing much could hit me any more. And I was getting annoyed with Tomi because he was slaughtering everything with his sneak attacks. Next I tried a rogue. I thought the combination of reasonably low HP and AC would make a rogue tough. Hmm, not really. She has lots of problems with the 'boss' type characters but slaughters everything else. I did find that Linu was a good choice of henchwoman because she doesn't seem to be over-powered in any way.
I understand that the game has to appeal to a mass audience, but I just wish the difficulty slider did more. Increasing monster damage doesn't make a whole lot of difference when they can't hit you and you can kill them with one blow. I would rather have several more levels of difficulty where monster attack ratings and HP increase. I think my characters would have a more enjoyable fight if they could get damaged more frequently and take longer to kill the enemy.
2. Henchmen
I liked the BG series party system. I liked the NPC interaction and the fact that you COULD control them if they started to do something unrealistically stupid, like run towards a trap or into a huge room full of critters. Most of the time my party worked according to the AI script I chose and I could concentrate on the main character. I have nothing against having less control over companions, except for two problems that NWN has:
- Extremely poor henchman AI and pathfinding
- Inability to manage henchman inventory (i.e. give them equipment)
I got round the second problem by using an excellent mod that allows you to manage henchmen inventory. It's not perfect, but only because henchmen were poorly implemented. A second mod, by the same person, helps henchmen combat AI. It's a vast improvement but there are still issues, such as henchmen running over traps that THEY spotted.
3. Story/Dialogue
I loved the BG storylines and dialogue. Yes, they were not amazing, but they were very good compared to many other computer games of the same type. NWN is a step backwards:
- The story is linear and I feel like I have no influence over it.
- There are so many holes in the plot, particularly continuity errors. It's obvious that people were not working from a central script and there was no proof-reading.
- Dialogue is almost totally linear. Even when you get choices, most of the time the end result is the same. Sometimes you will get three choices of response and the NPC will say the exact same thing regardless of which one you pick.
- Persuasion is useless. I haven't seen anything useful that persuasion will give me that I can't get by picking a different dialogue option. The worst part is that you can almost always keep attempting the same persuasion dialogue until you succeed, making high persuasion useless.
- There is no atmosphere. I think this is caused mainly by the dialogue/plot but also partly by the graphics (tiles, lighting). I have never at any point been worried about catching the Wailing Death and most NPCs in the game don't seem all that concerned either. I don't feel like there is any doubt that I will save the city and, probably, the world.
4. Items. I don't like the over powerful items. I would rate this as a greater complaint except that I can, of course, choose not to use them. I like the random item generation, but overall it is not very consistent. Essentially, I loot bodies and open chests and get a long stream of crap that is worth about 1-10 gold an item and then suddenly - usually for no good reason - I find an item that is stupidly powerful and/or worth tons of gold. It would make more sense if the tough fights yielded the best rewards, but this is usually not the case.
5. Two person party system. I distinguish this from the problem with henchmen because this would still be an issue even if I had full control of a henchman. Generally, the ability to control a party of 3-6 characters makes much more sense for an RPG game of this sort, especially a game based on D&D rules where all the monsters and encounters are designed assuming a party of four characters that includes some fighting skills, rogue skills and magic. Yes, an rpg can work just fine with you controlling ONE character, but those games are designed differently. For a start they either give you a character that is supposed to be a jack of all trades OR they avoid giving you problems that only certain character classes are able to solve. The most obvious problem of this nature in NWN is this: one of the two characters you control (you and the henchman) should be a decent rogue. There are a lot of traps in the game and locked items. I know there are other ways round these, such as sending summoned creatures to trigger traps and bashing open chests, but those solutions seem clumsy and are unnappealing to me. If you want to play a character like a paladin or cleric, for example, then you pretty much have to take Tomi as a henchmen, or at least the bard woman whose name I forget. This is just one example with the two-person party design that I dislike. Essentially, traditional D&D sort of assumes there is at least fighter, a rogue, a cleric and a wizard in the group. NWN is built with that assumption, yet you are not given enough slots for those characters. Instead, the designers had to 'dumb-down' the single player game by making most encounters weak, having only limited spellcaster enemies, throwing in a ton of healing kits and potions, adding in uber-items. Incidentally, my preference is for the BG series party system because you had six characters to play with. That means you could use four to fill the 'usual' required roles (fighter, thief, healer, mage) and still have two left over for wildcard characters.
6. Graphics. I'm OK with the graphics as a whole. I like the character and monster models. My main dislikes are the tile sets/scenary and the camera. I think the game looks too cartoony and bright - none of the creepy locations like tombs and graveyards have any atmosphere to them. I think the camera is pretty poor. I play in chase mode and the camera is meant to stay behind me, but very often it fails to respond and I have to manually adjust it myself.
I still like NWN, but I feel dissapointed with it overall.
Here are my complaints, with what I think are the most serious problems first.
1. Difficulty. I find most encounters just way too easy. I usually play a fighter but I purposefully avoided fighter, ranger, paladin and barbarian because I'd already read comments about the game being easy. First I tried playing a druid, but I got bored because my panther and Tomi did all the work and I maybe got a swing in occaisionally. Then I tried a monk. I knew a monk might make the game too easy so I purposefully started with non-optimal attributes. The monk was very challenging at first, until about level 5, and then I had so much AC that nothing much could hit me any more. And I was getting annoyed with Tomi because he was slaughtering everything with his sneak attacks. Next I tried a rogue. I thought the combination of reasonably low HP and AC would make a rogue tough. Hmm, not really. She has lots of problems with the 'boss' type characters but slaughters everything else. I did find that Linu was a good choice of henchwoman because she doesn't seem to be over-powered in any way.
I understand that the game has to appeal to a mass audience, but I just wish the difficulty slider did more. Increasing monster damage doesn't make a whole lot of difference when they can't hit you and you can kill them with one blow. I would rather have several more levels of difficulty where monster attack ratings and HP increase. I think my characters would have a more enjoyable fight if they could get damaged more frequently and take longer to kill the enemy.
2. Henchmen
I liked the BG series party system. I liked the NPC interaction and the fact that you COULD control them if they started to do something unrealistically stupid, like run towards a trap or into a huge room full of critters. Most of the time my party worked according to the AI script I chose and I could concentrate on the main character. I have nothing against having less control over companions, except for two problems that NWN has:
- Extremely poor henchman AI and pathfinding
- Inability to manage henchman inventory (i.e. give them equipment)
I got round the second problem by using an excellent mod that allows you to manage henchmen inventory. It's not perfect, but only because henchmen were poorly implemented. A second mod, by the same person, helps henchmen combat AI. It's a vast improvement but there are still issues, such as henchmen running over traps that THEY spotted.
3. Story/Dialogue
I loved the BG storylines and dialogue. Yes, they were not amazing, but they were very good compared to many other computer games of the same type. NWN is a step backwards:
- The story is linear and I feel like I have no influence over it.
- There are so many holes in the plot, particularly continuity errors. It's obvious that people were not working from a central script and there was no proof-reading.
- Dialogue is almost totally linear. Even when you get choices, most of the time the end result is the same. Sometimes you will get three choices of response and the NPC will say the exact same thing regardless of which one you pick.
- Persuasion is useless. I haven't seen anything useful that persuasion will give me that I can't get by picking a different dialogue option. The worst part is that you can almost always keep attempting the same persuasion dialogue until you succeed, making high persuasion useless.
- There is no atmosphere. I think this is caused mainly by the dialogue/plot but also partly by the graphics (tiles, lighting). I have never at any point been worried about catching the Wailing Death and most NPCs in the game don't seem all that concerned either. I don't feel like there is any doubt that I will save the city and, probably, the world.
4. Items. I don't like the over powerful items. I would rate this as a greater complaint except that I can, of course, choose not to use them. I like the random item generation, but overall it is not very consistent. Essentially, I loot bodies and open chests and get a long stream of crap that is worth about 1-10 gold an item and then suddenly - usually for no good reason - I find an item that is stupidly powerful and/or worth tons of gold. It would make more sense if the tough fights yielded the best rewards, but this is usually not the case.
5. Two person party system. I distinguish this from the problem with henchmen because this would still be an issue even if I had full control of a henchman. Generally, the ability to control a party of 3-6 characters makes much more sense for an RPG game of this sort, especially a game based on D&D rules where all the monsters and encounters are designed assuming a party of four characters that includes some fighting skills, rogue skills and magic. Yes, an rpg can work just fine with you controlling ONE character, but those games are designed differently. For a start they either give you a character that is supposed to be a jack of all trades OR they avoid giving you problems that only certain character classes are able to solve. The most obvious problem of this nature in NWN is this: one of the two characters you control (you and the henchman) should be a decent rogue. There are a lot of traps in the game and locked items. I know there are other ways round these, such as sending summoned creatures to trigger traps and bashing open chests, but those solutions seem clumsy and are unnappealing to me. If you want to play a character like a paladin or cleric, for example, then you pretty much have to take Tomi as a henchmen, or at least the bard woman whose name I forget. This is just one example with the two-person party design that I dislike. Essentially, traditional D&D sort of assumes there is at least fighter, a rogue, a cleric and a wizard in the group. NWN is built with that assumption, yet you are not given enough slots for those characters. Instead, the designers had to 'dumb-down' the single player game by making most encounters weak, having only limited spellcaster enemies, throwing in a ton of healing kits and potions, adding in uber-items. Incidentally, my preference is for the BG series party system because you had six characters to play with. That means you could use four to fill the 'usual' required roles (fighter, thief, healer, mage) and still have two left over for wildcard characters.
6. Graphics. I'm OK with the graphics as a whole. I like the character and monster models. My main dislikes are the tile sets/scenary and the camera. I think the game looks too cartoony and bright - none of the creepy locations like tombs and graveyards have any atmosphere to them. I think the camera is pretty poor. I play in chase mode and the camera is meant to stay behind me, but very often it fails to respond and I have to manually adjust it myself.
I still like NWN, but I feel dissapointed with it overall.
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fable
- Posts: 30676
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- Location: The sun, the moon, and the stars.
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Speaking for myself, I am not judging the game by misapplied standards that are more appropriate for BG2, or Morrowind. I am simply noting facets of the game that I don't like for reasons that I have described. You are welcome to think well of NWN if you want, but that doesn't mean your evaluation of it is automatically superior to mine simply because you enjoy it.Originally posted by leeman_s
You have to appreciate the game for what it is.
If you don't like it, don't play it. You don't have to waste you time posting things you hate about it. Bioware made a product, and it's up to you if you want to buy it.
This is a forum about a game. It is not a forum about boosting a game, or trashing it; only about the game, itself, and everything that may imply. We can discuss its characters if we wish, its patches, it singleplayer or multiplayer aspects, its good and bad points. If our remarks annoy you, by all means, find other threads to read. But until you start a forum of your own, you are not a content gatekeeper. With respect, this thread will remain open and continue on course.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
Yes, another great attempt to declare my views are generated by somehow having substandard hardware.... that's two in this thread alone.
First off, I want to say that the graphics are beautiful. For those of you who don't think the graphics are good, it's probably becuase your video SUCKS.
A GeForce 2 sucks? It's not a Ge4, admittedly, but it runs everything else just fine and dandy, thank ye. If you think the graphics are beautiful, you're entitled to that opinion. My opinion is that the graphics are hideously horrible, poorly implemented, lack all atmosphere, combine cartoonish and realisitic elements in a horrid blending without any sense of aesthetics, combine 3D and 2D elements poorly, are generally lackluster, shoddy, unprofessional and fail to measure up to those the VERY SAME company used in it's own earlier games. I think the spell effects are generally poor. I think the avatars suffer from artifacts that should have never passed through QA. I think inventory items look like they were drawn by a first year art student for the most part.
I think Icewind Dale looked better.
I think Torment looked better.
I think Baldur's Gate 2 looked better
I think Baldur's Gate looked better.
I think Darkstone looked better, even limited as it was.
Hell, I even think POOL OF RADIANCE II looked better, even if it was an even worse game.
You disagree with my opinion? Fine. You're entitled to be a bioware apologist if you choose. In future, however, you might find it more worthwhile to actually present a case for your own opinion rather then attempting to ridicule mine with the wrongful assumption my hardware isn't up to snuff.
First off, I want to say that the graphics are beautiful. For those of you who don't think the graphics are good, it's probably becuase your video SUCKS.
A GeForce 2 sucks? It's not a Ge4, admittedly, but it runs everything else just fine and dandy, thank ye. If you think the graphics are beautiful, you're entitled to that opinion. My opinion is that the graphics are hideously horrible, poorly implemented, lack all atmosphere, combine cartoonish and realisitic elements in a horrid blending without any sense of aesthetics, combine 3D and 2D elements poorly, are generally lackluster, shoddy, unprofessional and fail to measure up to those the VERY SAME company used in it's own earlier games. I think the spell effects are generally poor. I think the avatars suffer from artifacts that should have never passed through QA. I think inventory items look like they were drawn by a first year art student for the most part.
I think Icewind Dale looked better.
I think Torment looked better.
I think Baldur's Gate 2 looked better
I think Baldur's Gate looked better.
I think Darkstone looked better, even limited as it was.
Hell, I even think POOL OF RADIANCE II looked better, even if it was an even worse game.
You disagree with my opinion? Fine. You're entitled to be a bioware apologist if you choose. In future, however, you might find it more worthwhile to actually present a case for your own opinion rather then attempting to ridicule mine with the wrongful assumption my hardware isn't up to snuff.
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HighLordDave
- Posts: 4062
- Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2001 11:00 pm
- Location: Between Middle-Earth and the Galaxy Far, Far Away
- Contact:
Great graphics do not make up for a poor story and uncompelling characters. Similarly, average graphics and sound can easily make a game enjoyable if there is a solid basis in the characters and plot. For instance, BG2 is not the best looking CRPG out there. It's the fourth game to use the "aging" Infinity Engine. But it's a great game because of the story, replayability and the mix of characters. If NWN's graphics had been spectacular, it still wouldn't compensate for many of the complaints listed here.Originally posted by cjdevito
Yes, another great attempt to declare my views are generated by somehow having substandard hardware.... that's two in this thread alone.
Since I haven't finished the single-player campaign yet, I'm going to reserve final judgement on the game. However, many of the game complaints registered here and at Bioware (party, lack of NPC interaction, etc.) could have been fixed rather easily. For instance, a lot of dialogue trees could have been added to NPCs quickly without a lot of extra programming or resource overhead. Also, one of the main complaints about BG1 was that many of the side quests were of the "FedEx" type (ie-take this here for me or go pick something up) and they addressed that in BG2; why did the developers revert back to delivery boy quests for NWN?
I think there are a lot of valid criticisms for the game, but I also think that on balance, it's still pretty good.
Jesus saves! And takes half damage!
If brute force doesn't work, you're not using enough.
If brute force doesn't work, you're not using enough.
Darkstone maybe looked better at the time. Try looking at it now. I did - urgh!. I agree about all the other games looking better. It's not so much that the graphics were better, just that they conveyed the fantasy atmosphere better. I think NWN doesn't convey any atmosphere because everything is too angular, too generic looking and too bright.
I have GE4 and a good monitor, so it's not a question of hardware.
I still don't think the graphics suck, just that they seem like a step backwards from recent games, and not-so-recent, games.
I have GE4 and a good monitor, so it's not a question of hardware.
I still don't think the graphics suck, just that they seem like a step backwards from recent games, and not-so-recent, games.
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Gothmog4230
- Posts: 16
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mostly BUGS!!!
a week before i couldnt play because of well known problem (CD2 error installing) i tried diffrent drivers, defrag, cleaning cd, copy CD2 to hard drive, altering DMA mode i even changed windows to get this working
and still nothing changed try this link and see what was happenin to <iamgimli> http://nwn.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic ... um=49&sp=0
11 pages of experimenting and still no ultimate solution and that offical tech-support said nothing.
realy i find this greatest problem of this game.
otherwise i preffered a party from BG2 (best game ever)
it copies diablo2 too much
also multicalssing is made without proper restrictions (yeah some will say because of the rules but rules can be changed and for D&D comp. game should be)so being a pure class isnt really the best idea except perhaps for druid (shapeshifting)
levels too easily gained and too low cap - just to make more money with expansion wich will make it higher
hanchman - only one
no control stupid AI
too fast , no puzzles, romances ,no feelings, ....
a week before i couldnt play because of well known problem (CD2 error installing) i tried diffrent drivers, defrag, cleaning cd, copy CD2 to hard drive, altering DMA mode i even changed windows to get this working
and still nothing changed try this link and see what was happenin to <iamgimli> http://nwn.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic ... um=49&sp=0
11 pages of experimenting and still no ultimate solution and that offical tech-support said nothing.
realy i find this greatest problem of this game.
otherwise i preffered a party from BG2 (best game ever)
it copies diablo2 too much
also multicalssing is made without proper restrictions (yeah some will say because of the rules but rules can be changed and for D&D comp. game should be)so being a pure class isnt really the best idea except perhaps for druid (shapeshifting)
levels too easily gained and too low cap - just to make more money with expansion wich will make it higher
hanchman - only one
no control stupid AI too fast , no puzzles, romances
,no feelings, ....-
Sirius_Sam
- Posts: 301
- Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 10:56 am
- Location: USA
- Contact:
*Sigh* I just hope NWN can hang in there
After playing Dungeon Siege a few months ago, and only recently shelving Morrowind, I have to say that I have mixed feelings about NWN after finishing the game in single-player.
Admittedly, the SP storyline -was- shallow (although it was far and away better than Dungeon Siege's "story"), but I use the same internal argument I made to myself when I discovered that DS just wasn't the next great gaming experience (to say the least)...
...If you look at the NWN engine and toolset as a means to CREATE adventures and modules for your gaming group, then NWN is still a pretty good game and holds a lot of promise for delivering online RPing. If the modding community and some dedicated DMs get behind it, that is. Taken as nothing more than a successor to the BG series, then the game is pure junk, but if we actually use the toolset to make some decent mods (hey, it's what we asked for...) then we have the closest thing to tabletop DnD yet. THAT's what I'm counting on, anyway.
I've got a friend who was part of my local gaming group since high school. He had to move after college to chase a job in Chicago (we both lived in Louisiana...I've since moved to Texas). The group's spread-out now. Most of us are married old farts with kids and mortgages now, but we've still stayed in contact and managed to play just about all the MMORPGs out there together, as a group/clan/guild/-insert k3wl elitist name here-. As I'm sure almost everyone reading this can tell you...MMORPGs kinda suck if you want to do more than level and spam "SOW PLZ!". I want a big world to adventure in, but I don't want to share it with -everybody- anymore. I'm sick of the 10:1 female wood elf : normal people ratio (that's a joke and no offense meant if you are a male who likes to play a female character...just stop spamming me for cybersex, k?). Anyhow...NWN -just might- give us, and groups like us, a chance to actually be the heroes in the gameworld. The ONLY PC HEROES! *cheers*. Dungeon Siege is just too generic and NWN still has to prove itself, but it may open up true online roleplaying to those of us who want more than the typical PKPKPKPK/scammer/l33t h4xx0r jackasses of the online RPing majority.
I like roleplaying with people I know...like in real life. I like having goals and choices and character development and plots and intrigues and...well...the same things we ALL want from a roleplaying game. MMORPG and PvP has, in my mind, become synonymous with sh!tty AI and it's certainly no substitute for good programming, imagination and story. At the very least, NWN offers the -potential- for something approximating a decent DnD session. Something that no other CRPG can boast. Not even the wonderful Planescape:Torment or the BG/IWD games can boast this kind of person-to-person interaction within a controlled online environment (and, most assuredly, neither can any of the current MMORPGs). I for one just get entirely sick of only interacting with the damn computer. I want other like-minded people in a cool gameworld and have some FUN. What's been passing for online RPing "entertainment" lately has me wondering why I don't just change my favorite hobby into reading technical manuals ... at least I would walk away with a greater feeling of accomplishment after an all-nighter .
Sorry for being so long-winded. This rant was supposed to be a concise and unemotional -list- of what I didn't like about NWN, but I can live with all my pet peevs (3rd edition rules and the d20 system are #1...). I think everyone has pretty much hit the proverbial nail on the head with most of the things wrong with NWN. There's only one thing that I HATE about Neverwinter Nights...
...the SP game was DiabloII-in-a-prettier-box. That is just totally freaking unforgivable. For Pete's sake, NWN was supposed to be a revolution in online gaming (and it still -could- be), but it's nothing except regurgitated "game formula development" until some good mods are released. And as an afterthought: Bioware should create and release mods, like they promised, as soon as possible just to keep us believing NWN -might- be salvagable as a true online RPG (and no more PvP 'arena' mods, guys...we can kill each other with real intelligence. Beef up the game's AI and give us some decent dialogue too).
NOTE TO BIOWARE: I like DiabloII/LoD (or did a while back), but I never considered it to be an RPG...it's an action game with RPing elements (just like the original). If you promise us a ROLEPLAYING game, then you owe it to us, your fans and supporters, to give one to us. Hell, you guys were the defenders of the CRPG...so wtf was this? Go back and look at your damn pedigree. You should just be ashamed of touting -this- game as the best thing since sliced virtual bread. It's not crap, but it's not good either. Where's our idiot-proof, easy-to-use, 'create-a-dungeon-in-under-10-minutes' random geomorph templates-and-other-cool-stuff DUNGEON MASTER'S ASSISTANT??? I could build a quick knock off dungeon in minutes with the DMG, pen and paper...now that I've got a computer to -help- me and shorten a laborious process, you give me tools that...ummmm...turn it into a laborious, BORING and CONFUSING process. Thanks. Dammit devs...you've let your fans down with this one (-this- fan, at any rate).
It was an -OK- SP game, but it alone did not and can not justify the money, time and wishful thinking expended on the final product. I've still got my fingers crossed for the future of NWN and I really hope it takes off, but just in case...
...I'm gonna go find something more entertaining to do *finds a couple of books* "How To Wall Spackle Your Igloo" and "Repair of Your Vacuum Cleaner at 20 Fathoms"...
S_S
After playing Dungeon Siege a few months ago, and only recently shelving Morrowind, I have to say that I have mixed feelings about NWN after finishing the game in single-player.
Admittedly, the SP storyline -was- shallow (although it was far and away better than Dungeon Siege's "story"), but I use the same internal argument I made to myself when I discovered that DS just wasn't the next great gaming experience (to say the least)...
...If you look at the NWN engine and toolset as a means to CREATE adventures and modules for your gaming group, then NWN is still a pretty good game and holds a lot of promise for delivering online RPing. If the modding community and some dedicated DMs get behind it, that is. Taken as nothing more than a successor to the BG series, then the game is pure junk, but if we actually use the toolset to make some decent mods (hey, it's what we asked for...) then we have the closest thing to tabletop DnD yet. THAT's what I'm counting on, anyway.
I've got a friend who was part of my local gaming group since high school. He had to move after college to chase a job in Chicago (we both lived in Louisiana...I've since moved to Texas). The group's spread-out now. Most of us are married old farts with kids and mortgages now, but we've still stayed in contact and managed to play just about all the MMORPGs out there together, as a group/clan/guild/-insert k3wl elitist name here-. As I'm sure almost everyone reading this can tell you...MMORPGs kinda suck if you want to do more than level and spam "SOW PLZ!". I want a big world to adventure in, but I don't want to share it with -everybody- anymore. I'm sick of the 10:1 female wood elf : normal people ratio (that's a joke and no offense meant if you are a male who likes to play a female character...just stop spamming me for cybersex, k?). Anyhow...NWN -just might- give us, and groups like us, a chance to actually be the heroes in the gameworld. The ONLY PC HEROES! *cheers*. Dungeon Siege is just too generic and NWN still has to prove itself, but it may open up true online roleplaying to those of us who want more than the typical PKPKPKPK/scammer/l33t h4xx0r jackasses of the online RPing majority.
I like roleplaying with people I know...like in real life. I like having goals and choices and character development and plots and intrigues and...well...the same things we ALL want from a roleplaying game. MMORPG and PvP has, in my mind, become synonymous with sh!tty AI and it's certainly no substitute for good programming, imagination and story. At the very least, NWN offers the -potential- for something approximating a decent DnD session. Something that no other CRPG can boast. Not even the wonderful Planescape:Torment or the BG/IWD games can boast this kind of person-to-person interaction within a controlled online environment (and, most assuredly, neither can any of the current MMORPGs). I for one just get entirely sick of only interacting with the damn computer. I want other like-minded people in a cool gameworld and have some FUN. What's been passing for online RPing "entertainment" lately has me wondering why I don't just change my favorite hobby into reading technical manuals
... at least I would walk away with a greater feeling of accomplishment after an all-nighter .Sorry for being so long-winded. This rant was supposed to be a concise and unemotional -list- of what I didn't like about NWN, but I can live with all my pet peevs (3rd edition rules and the d20 system are #1...). I think everyone has pretty much hit the proverbial nail on the head with most of the things wrong with NWN. There's only one thing that I HATE about Neverwinter Nights...
...the SP game was DiabloII-in-a-prettier-box. That is just totally freaking unforgivable. For Pete's sake, NWN was supposed to be a revolution in online gaming (and it still -could- be), but it's nothing except regurgitated "game formula development" until some good mods are released. And as an afterthought: Bioware should create and release mods, like they promised, as soon as possible just to keep us believing NWN -might- be salvagable as a true online RPG (and no more PvP 'arena' mods, guys...we can kill each other with real intelligence. Beef up the game's AI and give us some decent dialogue too).
NOTE TO BIOWARE: I like DiabloII/LoD (or did a while back), but I never considered it to be an RPG...it's an action game with RPing elements (just like the original). If you promise us a ROLEPLAYING game, then you owe it to us, your fans and supporters, to give one to us. Hell, you guys were the defenders of the CRPG...so wtf was this? Go back and look at your damn pedigree. You should just be ashamed of touting -this- game as the best thing since sliced virtual bread. It's not crap, but it's not good either. Where's our idiot-proof, easy-to-use, 'create-a-dungeon-in-under-10-minutes' random geomorph templates-and-other-cool-stuff DUNGEON MASTER'S ASSISTANT??? I could build a quick knock off dungeon in minutes with the DMG, pen and paper...now that I've got a computer to -help- me and shorten a laborious process, you give me tools that...ummmm...turn it into a laborious, BORING and CONFUSING process. Thanks. Dammit devs...you've let your fans down with this one (-this- fan, at any rate).
It was an -OK- SP game, but it alone did not and can not justify the money, time and wishful thinking expended on the final product. I've still got my fingers crossed for the future of NWN and I really hope it takes off, but just in case...
...I'm gonna go find something more entertaining to do *finds a couple of books* "How To Wall Spackle Your Igloo" and "Repair of Your Vacuum Cleaner at 20 Fathoms"...
S_S
From what little I've played of the game, and from what I'm reading here(and agreeing with almost all of it) here's what I think in a nutshell. NWN was way too hyped up to the people that actually cared(IE veterans), and when you actually got to playing it, it was just a sloppy halfbreed between Darkstone and Diablo with improperly implemented 3E D&D rules and the worst idea ever to hit a CPRG, a Henchman that you have no control over.
And for what it's worth you got what you payed for and then some with Darkstone, but I have yet to play multi on NWN so I can't really say anything about that. But as someone said before, damn this toolset is complex.
But on the other hand I have a friend who's been playing Diablo I & II religiously since it hit the shelves and he new nothing of the game till he saw it in EB or Babbages(i don't remember). So he calls me up and asks if I've heard of it, and it just so happens I bought it the previous night, and being as I meet the minimum requirements for it it's too sketchy for my liking and I let him borrow it. His only complaint is that it's a little too slow on the start up(character generation and the very beginning) other than that he loves it.
And for what it's worth you got what you payed for and then some with Darkstone, but I have yet to play multi on NWN so I can't really say anything about that. But as someone said before, damn this toolset is complex.
But on the other hand I have a friend who's been playing Diablo I & II religiously since it hit the shelves and he new nothing of the game till he saw it in EB or Babbages(i don't remember). So he calls me up and asks if I've heard of it, and it just so happens I bought it the previous night, and being as I meet the minimum requirements for it it's too sketchy for my liking and I let him borrow it. His only complaint is that it's a little too slow on the start up(character generation and the very beginning) other than that he loves it.
"I'll take the stupid one who decided to threaten us, instead of shoot us when he had the chance" - Bao-Dur
Skuld, pookie, don't get me wrong. I -love- NWN, consider it money very well spent, and play it with alarming frequency. I'd say most of us do. However, that doesn't stop us from commenting on what we don't like about the game and what could have been better.
Until someone produces the perfect video game (which will, of course, be an MMORPG designed by people with brains, which will, alas, never happen), I will continue to try to improve the breed by offering my suggestions and analysis.
=)
-Cross
Until someone produces the perfect video game (which will, of course, be an MMORPG designed by people with brains, which will, alas, never happen), I will continue to try to improve the breed by offering my suggestions and analysis.
=)
-Cross
-
Ned Flanders
- Posts: 4867
- Joined: Mon May 28, 2001 10:00 pm
- Location: Springfield
- Contact:
Now that I've read through a majority of the thread, I'll add my own two cents.
First off, with respect to game play, graphics, henchmen, etc... it's all been said and said well. personally, I haven't had nor do I now have any serious problems with any of these facets of the game. Are they perfect, no. Are they ever, not really.
The part of this thread that really stirred my interest were those of you contributing that the game lacks passion because you don't have a sense of involvement in the game. Some really good examples (particularly the Firkraag stuff) were given as to how BG2 drew you into the game, made it personal in a fictional alternate ego sort of way. It was for these reasons, I couldn't find interest and eventually quit the single player game.
Resolution (of sorts): Myself and other friends decided to do the single player game together. No henchmen, just us. We've added our own roleplaying elements to the mix thanks to the use of Roger Wilco and the humorous 'emotes' and 'expressions' present in the game. Our monk partook in the gauntlet exchange, our bard with a high charisma and persuade usually does the talking for the group. Our rogue does the scouting in interior hostile areas (he really liked hodge's estate). Our mage has the quest of finding the reagents about time. As the groups ranger/cleric, the zoo quest is sort of my baby. Doling out responsibilities as such has added a lot to the game. We don't always stick together. Other people can be in different areas but splitting up is ok. The only problem is the fact we borrowed communicators from star trek (ala Roger Wilco - technically I guess someone in the beggars district should not be able to ask someone if the docks if they still have that adamantite because they just obtained a greatsword +1).
Whereas we were all frustrated with the single player game, we are having a blast now except we only play once or twice a week. Now, this is all fine and fun here in chapter 1 but once we turned the page to chapter 2, we really haven't found a chance to split up and things are losing a bit of personality. We'll just have to see how things advance and if the game holds our interest.
Bottom Line is this game does more for me than Morrowind or Dungeon Stink so I'm going to stick with it.
First off, with respect to game play, graphics, henchmen, etc... it's all been said and said well. personally, I haven't had nor do I now have any serious problems with any of these facets of the game. Are they perfect, no. Are they ever, not really.
The part of this thread that really stirred my interest were those of you contributing that the game lacks passion because you don't have a sense of involvement in the game. Some really good examples (particularly the Firkraag stuff) were given as to how BG2 drew you into the game, made it personal in a fictional alternate ego sort of way. It was for these reasons, I couldn't find interest and eventually quit the single player game.
Resolution (of sorts): Myself and other friends decided to do the single player game together. No henchmen, just us. We've added our own roleplaying elements to the mix thanks to the use of Roger Wilco and the humorous 'emotes' and 'expressions' present in the game. Our monk partook in the gauntlet exchange, our bard with a high charisma and persuade usually does the talking for the group. Our rogue does the scouting in interior hostile areas (he really liked hodge's estate). Our mage has the quest of finding the reagents about time. As the groups ranger/cleric, the zoo quest is sort of my baby. Doling out responsibilities as such has added a lot to the game. We don't always stick together. Other people can be in different areas but splitting up is ok. The only problem is the fact we borrowed communicators from star trek (ala Roger Wilco
- technically I guess someone in the beggars district should not be able to ask someone if the docks if they still have that adamantite because they just obtained a greatsword +1).Whereas we were all frustrated with the single player game, we are having a blast now except we only play once or twice a week. Now, this is all fine and fun here in chapter 1 but once we turned the page to chapter 2, we really haven't found a chance to split up and things are losing a bit of personality. We'll just have to see how things advance and if the game holds our interest.
Bottom Line is this game does more for me than Morrowind or Dungeon Stink so I'm going to stick with it.
Crush enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of the women.
Perhaps its just me but I was never able to finish Dungeon Siege or Diablo 2 for exactly the reason that most of you have bashed NWN. Lack of depth to the story, I simply couldn't go on with the game. I loved the way the games looked, I liked the mechanics of both games I simply got bored with doing the same things over and over, walk forward, see creature, attack creature, pick up whatever it dropped, repeat. I have no such problems with NWN, although the seemingly random chests everywhere are irritating but I simply ignore them for the most part. I agree that you don't have as deep a personal connection in NWN as there was in BG, but come on every game can't be about the children of a god! In BG your destiny was already partially written you were simply fulfilling it as the game progressed. In NWN you beginnings are more humble and you are writing your name in the stars and making a name for yourself as you go. I like both approaches. Oh well I guess thats about all there is to say.
It is best to be thought a fool and stay silent, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.
Wow, these posts are getting philosophical.
Why the obvious disappointment with this game? Why 6 replies to the "what do you love" post and 50+ to the "what do you hate" one?
A lot of people have mentioned a resemblance to Diablo II. When I first got the Stone of Recall, I thought "Scroll of Town Portal". The first time I recalled away from a tough fight, got healed, and teleported back, I thought "Diablo". As I went from chapter to chapter, each time with a new base where the main NPCs hung out, offering plenty of advice, expensive gear, healing, but little help, I thought "Diablo". "Diablo" also crossed my mind everytime I teleported back to town because I had reached the point where I couldn't carry anymore. But I really enjoyed Diablo II the first 1500 hours I played. Why do I feel NWN lacks? Partly because NWN doesn't have the same atmosphere, game-balance, gameplay, stability, and fun factor that Blizzard managed with Diablo II (and every other game they put out).
But I think mainly because NWN is not what most people expect from Bioware. A friend mentioned Baldur's Gate as a great game, and when I saw it cheap at the store, I picked it up. I loved it. Then I went and got BG II, thinking that if it was half as good as BG I, I'd be happy. BG2 blew me away. Every single minor nitpick I'd had with the original had been addressed (pathfinding, NPCs blocking each other, gems and scrolls taking up all your inventory, and dozens of other improvements). The story wasn't quite as good (I mean come on, that sequence while leaving Candlekeep, the subsequent slow dawning of who you are and who your enemy is - how was that going to be topped?), but they added SO much more (including giving you reasons to go to all areas, so you felt you were on an adventure instead of a surveying expedition). I digress a bit, but what I'm trying to get across is that I came to equate Bioware with quality well-balanced RPGs. And I find it hard to fit NWN into that.
The more I think about it, the more confused I become. I mean Bioware had to have played this game over and over. They're experts, right? How on earth could they not have realized how easy this game is? The worth of the storyline could be argued as pretty subjective, but I haven't seen anyone deny that this game is ridiculously easy. Incredibly poor game balancing. Compare every street encounter in the four NW districts to the first time you went to the lower Athkatla docks at night and ran into those three vampires. It's like they got so caught up in the technical aspects that they overlooked the gameplay and left it to the user community. *shakes his head sadly*
Maybe the whole Infogrames/Interplay thing and the stress involved with trying to revolutionize the gaming industry took its toll. They were late, they had that whole legal thing, they were trying a new technology, maybe the balancing and qual testing were rushed. Maybe with that all behind them Bioware will put out either a sequel or a mod that will remind us all of that other Bioware. We can only hope!
Why the obvious disappointment with this game? Why 6 replies to the "what do you love" post and 50+ to the "what do you hate" one?
A lot of people have mentioned a resemblance to Diablo II. When I first got the Stone of Recall, I thought "Scroll of Town Portal". The first time I recalled away from a tough fight, got healed, and teleported back, I thought "Diablo". As I went from chapter to chapter, each time with a new base where the main NPCs hung out, offering plenty of advice, expensive gear, healing, but little help, I thought "Diablo". "Diablo" also crossed my mind everytime I teleported back to town because I had reached the point where I couldn't carry anymore. But I really enjoyed Diablo II the first 1500 hours I played. Why do I feel NWN lacks? Partly because NWN doesn't have the same atmosphere, game-balance, gameplay, stability, and fun factor that Blizzard managed with Diablo II (and every other game they put out).
But I think mainly because NWN is not what most people expect from Bioware. A friend mentioned Baldur's Gate as a great game, and when I saw it cheap at the store, I picked it up. I loved it. Then I went and got BG II, thinking that if it was half as good as BG I, I'd be happy. BG2 blew me away. Every single minor nitpick I'd had with the original had been addressed (pathfinding, NPCs blocking each other, gems and scrolls taking up all your inventory, and dozens of other improvements). The story wasn't quite as good (I mean come on, that sequence while leaving Candlekeep, the subsequent slow dawning of who you are and who your enemy is - how was that going to be topped?), but they added SO much more (including giving you reasons to go to all areas, so you felt you were on an adventure instead of a surveying expedition). I digress a bit, but what I'm trying to get across is that I came to equate Bioware with quality well-balanced RPGs. And I find it hard to fit NWN into that.
The more I think about it, the more confused I become. I mean Bioware had to have played this game over and over. They're experts, right? How on earth could they not have realized how easy this game is? The worth of the storyline could be argued as pretty subjective, but I haven't seen anyone deny that this game is ridiculously easy. Incredibly poor game balancing. Compare every street encounter in the four NW districts to the first time you went to the lower Athkatla docks at night and ran into those three vampires. It's like they got so caught up in the technical aspects that they overlooked the gameplay and left it to the user community. *shakes his head sadly*
Maybe the whole Infogrames/Interplay thing and the stress involved with trying to revolutionize the gaming industry took its toll. They were late, they had that whole legal thing, they were trying a new technology, maybe the balancing and qual testing were rushed. Maybe with that all behind them Bioware will put out either a sequel or a mod that will remind us all of that other Bioware. We can only hope!
"Terrible hamster justice shall be wreaked upon you! GO FOR THE EYES, BOO, GO...!"
@Crosswind
Ah, I understand what you mean by the party unbalancing thing now. But I still think game balance is a non-issue for an NPC party. On the flip side, a multiplayer party of 4 or 6 humans is going to be unbalanced compared to one human and one henchman in singleplayer. And it would be trivial to have the game options include max number of henchmen in addition to max character level, number of players, etc. No, no, sorry, I want my NPC party and you won't convince me otherwise.
I'm just going to have to say that you're far more dextrous than I.
You could kill in a single hit?! (last Morrowind reference, I promise ) Well, my Persuader was kind of the anti-thesis of the powergamer's character (e.g. NWN monk) Major: Alteration, Mysticism, Unarmored, Hand-to-Hand, Speechcraft. Minor: Athletics, Acrobatics, Security, Stealth, Mercantile. Even at 56th level, pretty much the only thing I could kill with one hit was Nix-hounds. That, combined with my crippling obsession to do every quest in a game first time through, led to my high level. (Still didn't come even close to doing everything. Almost can't be done in MW, imho.)
Cheers!
And you started out with rebuttals!
Yeessssss, feed your hatred, embrace the dark side!
Ah, I understand what you mean by the party unbalancing thing now. But I still think game balance is a non-issue for an NPC party. On the flip side, a multiplayer party of 4 or 6 humans is going to be unbalanced compared to one human and one henchman in singleplayer. And it would be trivial to have the game options include max number of henchmen in addition to max character level, number of players, etc. No, no, sorry, I want my NPC party and you won't convince me otherwise.
Boy, and I thought I was confused after the NPC party/game balancing issue. Let's see, okay, the O's represent Cross and Tomi,... and then there's... there's two goal posts... on either end of the field,... with... a couple of sticks midfield...O <--Me O<Tomi
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I'm just going to have to say that you're far more dextrous than I.You could kill in a single hit?!
(last Morrowind reference, I promise ) Well, my Persuader was kind of the anti-thesis of the powergamer's character (e.g. NWN monk) Major: Alteration, Mysticism, Unarmored, Hand-to-Hand, Speechcraft. Minor: Athletics, Acrobatics, Security, Stealth, Mercantile. Even at 56th level, pretty much the only thing I could kill with one hit was Nix-hounds. That, combined with my crippling obsession to do every quest in a game first time through, led to my high level. (Still didn't come even close to doing everything. Almost can't be done in MW, imho.)Cheers!
Originally posted by Crosswind
I'm done with the rant. I'm convinced that I have the problem pinpointed: Bioware failed to have side quests and the main quest involve your character enough personally. ph33r me!
And you started out with rebuttals!
Yeessssss, feed your hatred, embrace the dark side!
"Terrible hamster justice shall be wreaked upon you! GO FOR THE EYES, BOO, GO...!"
Originally posted by leeman_s
Second, you say the game is waaaay to easy. But then, you say you want MORE henchmen and MORE control over them, thus making the game even easier. Get it straight guys.
BG II had more henchmen with more control, but was still far more difficult. Party size and game difficulty are not necessarily co-variants.
"Terrible hamster justice shall be wreaked upon you! GO FOR THE EYES, BOO, GO...!"
-
fable
- Posts: 30676
- Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2001 12:00 pm
- Location: The sun, the moon, and the stars.
- Contact:
I have heard it said that NWN was planned as a Diabloesque, non-pause game, and only changed after beta testers screamed that all the various available battle options simply weren't possible without pause. If that's the case, it would explain why the game is so simple: it was planned for a player who had their hands perpetually full, and couldn't think fast enough to choose spells, switch items and weapons, etc, while attacks occured.Originally posted by Nygma
BG II had more henchmen with more control, but was still far more difficult. Party size and game difficulty are not necessarily co-variants.
I have to say, the fascination of developers with complex RPGs in full realtime escapes me. Liionheart is going the same route, and appears like it will run into precisely this same set of problems as NWN. If you've got a couple of weapons, items and spells, then yes, hotkeys and experience will let you operate fine in an action-based environment. But anything more complex simply isn't possible or enjoyable for most players to handle. If I were a mage with 45 different memorized spells, 8 items and 3 weapons, I wouldn't be thinking about what to stick in hotkeys. I'd be searching for the first ship out to another playing environment.
Just my POV. To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
Nygma: If people make comments that I disagree with, I will crank out rebuttals like nobody's business. However, I too felt that something was lacking, and, like the good engineer I am, felt the need to pinpoint and isolate the problem.
Allow me to quickly point out that my ASCII art with Tomi and me was way the hell better. Damn gamebanshee deleted my spaces, and screwed up my formatting! Griefy forums.
Now, I've already stated that I felt the quests lacking in personal involvement, and nobody has refuted or commented on it much (except for the shout out from Ned!). So I count myself as having won that argument with nobody!
As for the Diablo-esque feel of the game, I didn't feel it. I've got to admit, the word "diablo" never once crossed my mind. It's quests are not BG2 quality, but they're not the complete drivel that Diablo was. Don't get me onto that.
Still, if so many people compare it, there must be some foundation to their claims. Thus, more analysis:
One point that has been raised is the viability of a real time RPG, and the seeming fascination with it that developers have (almost like the fascination people have with 3D!). Let me state right now that the best roleplaying experiences I have had using my computer have been in realtime: roleplaying in Ultima Online with dozens of other like-minded folk. Some day someone will make an MMORPG with the same easy-going nature as UO that encourages roleplay, and I'll go play that, but until then I'm stuck talking about single player experiences...which just DONT STACK UP to getting into character with many other real people, with non-pre-scripted answers. That was a long sentence. What I'm saying is that I, for one, find it easier to get into character when the game world is fluid; like I'd imagine Faerun to be. Don't get me wrong: when a friend and I played through Baldur's Gate II in multiplayer, we paused all the time and discussed strategy before battle. But that was certainly out of character. Now, this same friend and I are playing through neverwinter nights, and the strategies are more hectic; we come up with them on the fly, and we implement them on the fly. Things like "I'm setting a trap, on the count of 5, run towards me!" and "go for the mage, I'm dispelling his protections and I'll cover your back" add a sense of urgency. Tactics, instead of strategy, is what I suppose the difference is.
The problem, for me, is not the real time. It's that the city isn't really a city; both times you see it, it's a war zone. While that's acceptable, It means it doesn't give you the "city" feel. The Peninsula could just be a dungeon, for all it would impact the game. While there's justification for all of this (Waterdhavian creatures loose), it doesn't change the ratio of attacking things to talking to moving places is about 9:1:1. Compare that to about 2:2:5 in Baldur's Gate.
Also, I feel the need to add that there is nowhere near the sneakiness factor in this game. Nowhere -near-. Dungeons are straightforward. But here's the thing: By the time I'd played BG2 a few times through, I had a 6th sense. I knew where traps were. When me and the aforementioned friend played through Throne of Bhaal the first time, we stepped on about 1 trap, total. We were just that psychic. The difference, of course, was that in BG2, dungeons were set up to kill you. In NWN, they're set up to give you XP. Look at closest thing to a good BG2 dungeon that you have in NWN: Mutamin's Challenge.
It's got about 4 riddles; That's good. But most of the bad guys are wandering around aimlessly, or in obscenely predictable rooms. Compare/Contrast with Firkraag's dungeon. Before you even get there, you're attacked by things immune to normal weapons, a cloudkill-casting rakshasa, and a bunch of other nasties. You walk into the hall, and you're in the middle of a crossfire of orc archers with fire arrows. The only way to get to them is to detect a secret door, pick it open, and go in. Or you have to pick the lock of a door ahead of you. All while being shot at. You finally get through, have to fight a golem that you do about 2 damage to a hit if you're lucky. You have to fight 7 djinns to put together the pieces for a mask to allow you to kill a greater fire elemental. Oh, and that beholder too. You finally do all this to discover that the person who gave you the key to get in has betrayed you. We're talking quest within a quest within a quest within a quest.
This type of dungeon design does NOT HAPPEN IN NWN. This is a big problem. The BG2 dungeons were something I'd expect my DM in real life to throw at us (he's a bastard.). Twists and turns, not being able to trust anybody, and having to work, think and discover to survive. Instead of this, I get traps that do 0 damage to me because of a ring that I picked up in chapter 1? Our party fighter doesn't even bother with walking around traps any more. Just walks over them, laughs at the zero damage. The only ones that can actually kill you are on chests...which we can just shoot open.
Now, I know what you're thinking. "Could this guy plz stop talking about firkraag's dungeon?!". Answer: yes. I could talk about the Asylum. I could talk about the watcher's keep in ToB. I could talk about the Mae'var quests. I could talk about the drow city. I could talk about wetting myself the first time I saw Firkraag (I knew it was coming. My friend knew it was coming. He was still f--king huge.) I could talk about practically any real dungeon in BG2, ToB, etcetera.
Now, again, do not take this as saying that I do not like neverwinter nights. Take is as saying I know that NWN could have been much better. Add in BG2-style quests and character involvement. Make my character get drawn in. Flesh out your goddamn storyline and give me a reason to do these things. Give me options.
Fortunately, I'm confident that some mod-maker will do this. Will make a clever dungeon, instead of a brute dungeon. We can always overcome brute; clever is what makes us pat ourselves on the backs afterwards. And that's what these games are all about, aren't they? Going through with a friend, grinning as your realize how porked you are, and how you should have forseen something. Drinking your last heal potion, or casting your last magic missile at a near-death opponent, hoping it's enough...and surviving. With a grin. Stopping the evil mage, freeing the prisoners, etcetera.
Oyah. And another note. Give me a real villain? Please? With some depth? Maybe? Maugrim had about as much character depth as Ken from the Street Fighter movie. And that's being generous. Morag was pathetic. The only reason I hated her was because she sounded like a french madame. She was your typical "3y3 w1ll t@k3 0v3r t3h w0rlDz!" villain, and I didn't need that. Irenicus would have beaten the ever-loving snot out of her. He's also just plain cooler...with a back story even! Amazing!
I'm rapidly nearing the message length cap (again...that's twice in 1 thread), so I'll wrap it up"
I don't dislike Neverwinter nights, but the more I think about it, the more I analyze it, the more I despair about how much better it could have, and should have been.
-Cross
P.S. Coincidence that Black Isle worked on BG, PS:T, BG2, BG:ToB, but not this one? Mebbe the story and plot wizards are all over at Black Isle...
Allow me to quickly point out that my ASCII art with Tomi and me was way the hell better. Damn gamebanshee deleted my spaces, and screwed up my formatting! Griefy forums.
Now, I've already stated that I felt the quests lacking in personal involvement, and nobody has refuted or commented on it much (except for the shout out from Ned!). So I count myself as having won that argument with nobody!
As for the Diablo-esque feel of the game, I didn't feel it. I've got to admit, the word "diablo" never once crossed my mind. It's quests are not BG2 quality, but they're not the complete drivel that Diablo was. Don't get me onto that.
Still, if so many people compare it, there must be some foundation to their claims. Thus, more analysis:
One point that has been raised is the viability of a real time RPG, and the seeming fascination with it that developers have (almost like the fascination people have with 3D!). Let me state right now that the best roleplaying experiences I have had using my computer have been in realtime: roleplaying in Ultima Online with dozens of other like-minded folk. Some day someone will make an MMORPG with the same easy-going nature as UO that encourages roleplay, and I'll go play that, but until then I'm stuck talking about single player experiences...which just DONT STACK UP to getting into character with many other real people, with non-pre-scripted answers. That was a long sentence. What I'm saying is that I, for one, find it easier to get into character when the game world is fluid; like I'd imagine Faerun to be. Don't get me wrong: when a friend and I played through Baldur's Gate II in multiplayer, we paused all the time and discussed strategy before battle. But that was certainly out of character. Now, this same friend and I are playing through neverwinter nights, and the strategies are more hectic; we come up with them on the fly, and we implement them on the fly. Things like "I'm setting a trap, on the count of 5, run towards me!" and "go for the mage, I'm dispelling his protections and I'll cover your back" add a sense of urgency. Tactics, instead of strategy, is what I suppose the difference is.
The problem, for me, is not the real time. It's that the city isn't really a city; both times you see it, it's a war zone. While that's acceptable, It means it doesn't give you the "city" feel. The Peninsula could just be a dungeon, for all it would impact the game. While there's justification for all of this (Waterdhavian creatures loose), it doesn't change the ratio of attacking things to talking to moving places is about 9:1:1. Compare that to about 2:2:5 in Baldur's Gate.
Also, I feel the need to add that there is nowhere near the sneakiness factor in this game. Nowhere -near-. Dungeons are straightforward. But here's the thing: By the time I'd played BG2 a few times through, I had a 6th sense. I knew where traps were. When me and the aforementioned friend played through Throne of Bhaal the first time, we stepped on about 1 trap, total. We were just that psychic. The difference, of course, was that in BG2, dungeons were set up to kill you. In NWN, they're set up to give you XP. Look at closest thing to a good BG2 dungeon that you have in NWN: Mutamin's Challenge.
It's got about 4 riddles; That's good. But most of the bad guys are wandering around aimlessly, or in obscenely predictable rooms. Compare/Contrast with Firkraag's dungeon. Before you even get there, you're attacked by things immune to normal weapons, a cloudkill-casting rakshasa, and a bunch of other nasties. You walk into the hall, and you're in the middle of a crossfire of orc archers with fire arrows. The only way to get to them is to detect a secret door, pick it open, and go in. Or you have to pick the lock of a door ahead of you. All while being shot at. You finally get through, have to fight a golem that you do about 2 damage to a hit if you're lucky. You have to fight 7 djinns to put together the pieces for a mask to allow you to kill a greater fire elemental. Oh, and that beholder too. You finally do all this to discover that the person who gave you the key to get in has betrayed you. We're talking quest within a quest within a quest within a quest.
This type of dungeon design does NOT HAPPEN IN NWN. This is a big problem. The BG2 dungeons were something I'd expect my DM in real life to throw at us (he's a bastard.). Twists and turns, not being able to trust anybody, and having to work, think and discover to survive. Instead of this, I get traps that do 0 damage to me because of a ring that I picked up in chapter 1? Our party fighter doesn't even bother with walking around traps any more. Just walks over them, laughs at the zero damage. The only ones that can actually kill you are on chests...which we can just shoot open.
Now, I know what you're thinking. "Could this guy plz stop talking about firkraag's dungeon?!". Answer: yes. I could talk about the Asylum. I could talk about the watcher's keep in ToB. I could talk about the Mae'var quests. I could talk about the drow city. I could talk about wetting myself the first time I saw Firkraag (I knew it was coming. My friend knew it was coming. He was still f--king huge.) I could talk about practically any real dungeon in BG2, ToB, etcetera.
Now, again, do not take this as saying that I do not like neverwinter nights. Take is as saying I know that NWN could have been much better. Add in BG2-style quests and character involvement. Make my character get drawn in. Flesh out your goddamn storyline and give me a reason to do these things. Give me options.
Fortunately, I'm confident that some mod-maker will do this. Will make a clever dungeon, instead of a brute dungeon. We can always overcome brute; clever is what makes us pat ourselves on the backs afterwards. And that's what these games are all about, aren't they? Going through with a friend, grinning as your realize how porked you are, and how you should have forseen something. Drinking your last heal potion, or casting your last magic missile at a near-death opponent, hoping it's enough...and surviving. With a grin. Stopping the evil mage, freeing the prisoners, etcetera.
Oyah. And another note. Give me a real villain? Please? With some depth? Maybe? Maugrim had about as much character depth as Ken from the Street Fighter movie. And that's being generous. Morag was pathetic. The only reason I hated her was because she sounded like a french madame. She was your typical "3y3 w1ll t@k3 0v3r t3h w0rlDz!" villain, and I didn't need that. Irenicus would have beaten the ever-loving snot out of her. He's also just plain cooler...with a back story even! Amazing!
I'm rapidly nearing the message length cap (again...that's twice in 1 thread), so I'll wrap it up"
I don't dislike Neverwinter nights, but the more I think about it, the more I analyze it, the more I despair about how much better it could have, and should have been.
-Cross
P.S. Coincidence that Black Isle worked on BG, PS:T, BG2, BG:ToB, but not this one? Mebbe the story and plot wizards are all over at Black Isle...
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fable
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One point that has been raised is the viability of a real time RPG, and the seeming fascination with it that developers have (almost like the fascination people have with 3D!).
If this is a reference back to my post before yours, it's not quite accurate. What I actually wrote was: I have to say, the fascination of developers with complex RPGs in full realtime escapes me. The problem, then, as I see it, is not realtime. The problem is the complexity of available (and necessary) spells, items and weapons required to meet the challenges of realtime battle. It's one thing when you have a couple of spells, items and weapons for your choices, all of them hotkeyed, as in Diablo. That worked smoothly, and realtime added an element of adrenalin-based action. But when you've got dozens of spells, and weapons, and items to choose from, realtime simply isn't a viable option unless you invest an incredible amount of time hardcoding dozens of hotkey locations into your braincase. Hotkeys behind ALT, CTRL, and straight function keys? Sure! But I think many of us (including yours truly) lack the personal RAM upgrade to store 30 or more hotkeys for quick availability, not at least without a great deal of preparation. And that preparation, frankly, isn't fun.
Personally, I enjoy realtime games. The realtime games I've played typically allowed me the equivalent of a pause by providing spells, items or movement options that backed me out of a situation, so that I could change inventory items, etc. (Have you ever played a mage with more than 40 magical items in your inventory? I have.) So even in many MMORPGs, realtime permits some hedging for the person who can't shift weapons quickly, choose from 20 spells, or locate a series of items from several dozen.
If this is a reference back to my post before yours, it's not quite accurate. What I actually wrote was: I have to say, the fascination of developers with complex RPGs in full realtime escapes me. The problem, then, as I see it, is not realtime. The problem is the complexity of available (and necessary) spells, items and weapons required to meet the challenges of realtime battle. It's one thing when you have a couple of spells, items and weapons for your choices, all of them hotkeyed, as in Diablo. That worked smoothly, and realtime added an element of adrenalin-based action. But when you've got dozens of spells, and weapons, and items to choose from, realtime simply isn't a viable option unless you invest an incredible amount of time hardcoding dozens of hotkey locations into your braincase.
Hotkeys behind ALT, CTRL, and straight function keys? Sure! But I think many of us (including yours truly) lack the personal RAM upgrade to store 30 or more hotkeys for quick availability, not at least without a great deal of preparation. And that preparation, frankly, isn't fun.Personally, I enjoy realtime games. The realtime games I've played typically allowed me the equivalent of a pause by providing spells, items or movement options that backed me out of a situation, so that I could change inventory items, etc. (Have you ever played a mage with more than 40 magical items in your inventory? I have.) So even in many MMORPGs, realtime permits some hedging for the person who can't shift weapons quickly, choose from 20 spells, or locate a series of items from several dozen.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
thank you for the info, what do you reccomend? I want something like bg2, with personal involvement, great graphics and all that, parties, replay...the whole thing.Originally posted by Crosswind
Note to Rahvin: Morrowind is a GREAT game. For 2 days. However, it has zero replay value, is riddled with bugs, is imbalanced, and gets old horrifically fast.
-Cross
~Rahvin, Lord of Darkness~
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