Sept 11th

Silur · Post by **Silur** » Fri Aug 23, 2002 7:41 am

Re: 11 Sept.

Even in the US, loss of life is valued differently. 3000 persons lost their life in the WTC attack on September 11. On average, some 16000 persons loose their lives to crimes of violence in the US every year. Where is their day? Speaking of rape, some 90000 violent rapes are _reported_ in the US every year. Where is their day? Most of these crimes are by Americans against other Americans. These statistics are presented in the news about thirty seconds once a year.

Internationally, the US have done many great things. Unfortunately, the unselfish acts are grossly overshadowed by actions of self interest. South America is generally considered to be the US back yard. Shouldn't the US mourn for all the victims of the various dictators the US have put in place? The civil wars staged? The turmoil in the wake of political assassinations? The later may soon be a reality again. Iraq, even though invading Quwait was a terrible thing to do, noone even blinked when Iran, Iraq and Turkey split Kurdistan between them. Would the US been more likely to intervene if the Kurds had more oil? These are just a few examples.

The WTC attack does signify something important. Unfortunately, the white media noise managed to blur it out completely. One of the things the attack said was, the third world is starting to get fed up with always getting the short end of the stick. Being an idealist I hoped that the incident would make people realise that we're all people on just one planet. Like I have said before, to not become cynical is a battle every day.

So, which gives us the most reason to mourn? A group of madmen killing 3000 people one day out of misplaced ideology or an entire society killing a greater number every day to retain "a way of life"?

Edit: This is in regard to the original topic.

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Fri Aug 23, 2002 7:43 am

a step backward... CM, you scare me.
Aren't you aware that those 3000 people were intentionally
KILLED, they were intentionally CHOSEN, they were considered
BETTER PREYS BECAUSE they were civilians????

Aren't you aware that other civilians were used AS A LIVING BOMB
to do the deed?

Aren't you aware that there is a large number of people that
still TRAIN themselves to learn more and more ways to kill
as much people as possible, BETTER if they are civilians,
women and children?

We're not speaking about AIDS, or conventional wars, tragic
as all those things are.
I'm sorry to say this, but I do agree with Oriana Fallaci:
we have a lot to fear from Muslims and their culture.
Every culture has its flaws, but none manages to reache such
points of blind madness in hate.
We have really to find some contacts with them, or it'll be
total war one day.
My guess it's indeed this one. One day it'll be total war.
I WILL mourn for the Twin Tower victims.

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Fri Aug 23, 2002 7:45 am

Originally posted by Nippy

Perhaps so Weasel, but whatever we do is obviously considered to be reparations for the past. To "break the cycle" means to risk lives who go in and attempt to help. A worthy cause to die for?

I feel like Eminem when he got mobbed by thousands...

The one human life you save might one day save you.

And I will not pile on you Nippy.

My thoughts are my own and I will not claim they are the absolute truth or the right way, it's just the way I see things.

Dottie · Post by **Dottie** » Fri Aug 23, 2002 7:46 am

Originally posted by Nippy

As harsh as it may seem Dottie, they maybe should be thankful for it. In terms of cost we have spent more money on those nations (as a Western unit) than was perhaps what it was worth.

In terms of cost they spend more money on us than we do on them. Perhaps we should be thankfull... and somewhat humble.

About Mugabe, the man has committed atrocities and murdered people. Why should he retaliate in a vicious way on people that have done nothing personally to him.

I agree that mugabe seems horrible, but this has nothing to do with himn personally, There was a plan for how some land might be distributed to the poor people who were working on it, instead of white land owners who had inherited it from other white land owners who had taken it by force. However time time passed by and nothing happened, eventually people got angry. I think that should mugabe have not been invloved i would have thought their actions completly morally correct.

Nippy · Post by **Nippy** » Fri Aug 23, 2002 7:47 am

Originally posted by C Elegans

Yes I think it our fault in many ways, the European colonisation of Africa is one of the the most brutal and immoral events in human history. Also, we continue to keep the power and riches in our part of the world by continuing to depleteing the 3rd of or their natural resources, as Dottie and Silur has already mentioned.

However, I think we should take responsibility for human suffering and help even when it is not our fault that they suffer. To me it is simply a question of humanitarian values and fairness. If a child with born with a severe neurological disease comes to me, shouldn't I help because it wasn't my fault it got the disease? No, of course I help, and the same principle is the basis for my idea on how the global responsibilities should look like - those with power, knowledge and resources should help those who don't have that and suffer. I don't like a world where the morality simply is that the weak gets weaker because the strong don't care or even use the situation to their advantage.

Yes but CE. a child is a lot different to the cost of supporting an entire race...

@ All. I'm off for a little while now, I have work to do. I look forward to reading replies and trying to come up with some arguments. I'm enjoying this. I hope I'm not putting up a terrible front...

Silur · Post by **Silur** » Fri Aug 23, 2002 7:53 am

Originally posted by Nippy

As I read your "Yes" reply I was reminded of a quote:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do not blame the son for the father's sins
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This would be an acceptable point, were it that the sins of the father ended with the father. Unfortunately, we (as in the western world) are still exploiting the third world just as badly as we did in our fathers time.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Fri Aug 23, 2002 8:24 am

See you later, Nippy.

Originally posted by Nippy
Yes but CE. a child is a lot different to the cost of supporting an entire race...

No, it is not IMO. If I help this child, it will grow up and play its part in soceity just as you and I do. The child may grow up and become the person who comes up with a great economic plan for our soceity, with a solution to global warming or the energy problems, a cure for cancer or a skilled ER doctor. Every person who will be given the possibility, has an equal chance to become that person, so the cost-benefit ratio is the same regardless of whether 1 or 1 million children are given the possibility. Besides, I also think it is inhumane and immoral to stand passive at innocent people's suffering and that is what the Western world does. Even worse, we continue to use it to our own advantage.

Silur · Post by **Silur** » Fri Aug 23, 2002 8:24 am

Originally posted by Littiz
I'm sorry to say this, but I do agree with Oriana Fallaci:
we have a lot to fear from Muslims and their culture.
Every culture has its flaws, but none manages to reache such
points of blind madness in hate.
We have really to find some contacts with them, or it'll be
total war one day.
My guess it's indeed this one. One day it'll be total war.

I think referring to Moslems is uncalled for, since fanaticism is not a trait specific to the Moslem culture. There are as many fanatics within other groups of the world, including, to mention but a few, Christians, Jews, Hindu, Capitalists, Communists, Animal rights activists - the list goes on. On the contrary, the Moslem culture must be peaceful indeed for not being more hostile considering all the crap the christian world has thrown at them the last millenium and a half.

smass · Post by **smass** » Fri Aug 23, 2002 8:50 am

I have been lurking on this discussion for the past few days - thanks to all for their opinions thus far and to CM for posting such a thought provoking subject.

Littiz finally prompted me to write my feelings down on this subject. First, some background on me. I am a resident of NewYork state, and am in my mid thirties with 2 young children. My world views have changed over the years, as most peoples do - In high school I was a staunch republican and supporter of the Reagan administration - when I got to college I did a 180 and became very liberal in my views. I majored in political science and concentrated on US foreign policy and 20th century history. After I joined the working world I became more moderate in my views. Politically speaking I began to realize that self interest drives most politicians and most people - therefore one political party or ideology does not hold a monopoly on morality or right and wrong. The birth of my children has further changed my outlook on the world and brought me more understanding of the value family and life in general.

Sorry for the boring details - on to my points. Living in the US gives me a certain perspective on the world - just like living in any other country colors your perspectives. The 20th century will be historically known for the rise of the US and its military, political, and cultural power. We were on the winning side of the major wars and ultimately prevailed in the cold war. Our cultural and economic dominance at the end of the century has had a great effect on the rest of the world and colored many peoples views of us. Articles and books that I have read, and most recently posts on this website by members of other nations, have pointed out to me the level of mistrust, jealousy, and outright contempt that exists towards the US in many parts of the world. We probably bought this all on ourselves and the arrogant American stereotype is often valid.

That being said in my experience Americans in general are peace loving, family loving, and fun loving people - we have our share of scum - probably no more or less than anywhere else in the world. Until September 11th (my birthday by the way, lucky me) most Americans were still living under the illusion that our country was somehow isolated from the turmoil that exists in parts of the rest of the world. When those buildings came down it was an attack on the very fibre and psyche of our nation.

Yes, only 3000 or so died, yes - we have the money and determination to rebuild, no this disaster does not compare in terms of human loss to any number of events that happen around the rest of the world. The importance of this disaster for America is much larger than for the rest of the world. When I first read CMs post my initial reaction was to be very hurt by the lack of sympathy that I perceived. I am glad that I waited to post as I now realize that his point is valid and he didn't intend to offend. CM - feel free to pass the day on September 11th any way you wish. I as an American do not expect you or anyone else to make an extra effort to mourn the victims. I would only hope that you try to grasp the magnitude of this event in my perspective. Sept 11th will hopefully be remembered as a turning point in world history that leads indirectly to more peace and understanding between peoples. If the opposite comes to be then I fear that Littiz vision of war may come to be. If terrorist like Bin Laden are allowed to operate and supported by other countries they will get their wish. I just hope that reason and good will has a chance to win out against prejudice, fanaticism and blind hate - history would have me hedge my bets...

T'lainya · Post by **T'lainya** » Fri Aug 23, 2002 8:52 am

Everyone, lets keep this civil and on topic. I don't want to see this turn into Muslim-bashing or into an Islam vs. Christianity vs. Judaism issue.
T'lainya

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Fri Aug 23, 2002 8:54 am

@Silur: I'm not Catholic anyway, I'm an atheist.
And I'm no historician, I only observe what the present offers..

I've seen Moslim people do PARTY in the streets after the Twin Towers collapsed.....
I NEVER saw anything close to this in my entire life.
......I CAN'T forget such an episode.

I sincerely hope that the best traits of their culture will take prevalence in the end, as much as to suffocate this hunt for innocent blood...

I've nothing against that or other religions.

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Fri Aug 23, 2002 8:55 am

Originally posted by Littiz

I'm sorry to say this, but I do agree with Oriana Fallaci:
we have a lot to fear from Muslims and their culture.
Every culture has its flaws, but none manages to reache such
points of blind madness in hate.
We have really to find some contacts with them, or it'll be
total war one day.
My guess it's indeed this one. One day it'll be total war.
I WILL mourn for the Twin Tower victims.

This completly uncalled for. It is an bigotted attack on a religion with about 1.2 Billion followers. There are fanatics all over the world sadly - to single out muslims in the way you have done is not right.

Tybaltus · Post by **Tybaltus** » Fri Aug 23, 2002 8:58 am

Originally posted by Littiz
@Silur: I'm not Catholic anyway, I'm an atheist.
And I'm no historician, I only observe what the present offers..
And I know what I see.

I've seen Moslim people do PARTY in the streets after the Twin Towers collapsed.....
I NEVER saw anything close to this in my entire life.
......I CAN'T forget such an episode.

I sincerely hope that the best traits of their culture will take prevalence in the end, as much as to suffocate this hunt for innocent blood...
Let's hope you're right...

Just drop the Muslim issue here. I know for sure that it wasnt all of them. In fact it must have been quite the opposite. Im sure it was only the extremists. The people at my school that were hurt the MOST were the Muslims there. I wont forget the tears they shed when we conducted the memorial. So please, dont start generalizing the muslims as a whole, ok?

And T'Lainya is right. We should stay on topic and drop the Islam vs Christianity, and Muslim bashing and what not. Because I cant stand for unfair generalizations. Back to the original topic, please.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Fri Aug 23, 2002 9:01 am

Originally posted by Littiz
I've seen Moslim people do PARTY in the streets after the Twin Towers collapsed.....
I NEVER saw anything close to this in my entire life.
......I CAN'T forget such an episode.

I understand you cannot forget such a strong emotional experience...but sadly, this is not only muslims, this is human nature. Sadistic celebrations has been performed in all wars, in almost all conflicts between any groups of people on this earth. It is important to understand this is nothing particular even for fanatic muslims, it is universal for all fanatic groups in this world.

Silur · Post by **Silur** » Fri Aug 23, 2002 9:06 am

Originally posted by Littiz
I've seen Moslim people do PARTY in the streets after the Twin Towers collapsed.....
I NEVER saw anything close to this in my entire life.
......I CAN'T forget such an episode.

So based on isolated incidents, you draw a generalized opinion on the behavior and opinions of one fifth of the world population?

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Fri Aug 23, 2002 9:11 am

I'm no stupid, and I'm not generalizing!
I only say that THOSE fanatics are fearsome.
To me, they are, as I cannot find something close to them
in goals and methods.

But, ok, let's go for the "politically correct" and ignore the problems.
I don't ask to get banned.

We'll know when the problems will finally find us.

Silur · Post by **Silur** » Fri Aug 23, 2002 9:17 am

Originally posted by Littiz
I only say that THOSE fanatics are fearsome.

In difference to which other fanatics?

smass · Post by **smass** » Fri Aug 23, 2002 9:29 am

All fanatics are to be feared to some degree. For me the sight of people - women, children and others celebrating the deaths of innocents is disturbing and very sad. But lets not lose sight of the fact that these images are often exploited by the press.

That being said - I hope they were isolated incidents. I don't want to speak for Littiz - but I think what she is trying to say is that the level of hate and ignorance that is demonstrated by these actions warrants some alarm for peace loving folks. For hate to reach the level of zeal that these demonstrations illustrated is a dangerous thing. Hate of any kind can never lead to any good in the world.

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Fri Aug 23, 2002 9:30 am

Listen, I didn't want to raise flames.
I'd love that all flames in the world could be quenched.

I'm completely aware of the atrocieties committed, say, by catholics in the past.
And by other.
At the moment, I see this conflict between cultures as the most actual, and preoccupant problem...
So we all should REALLY mourn those victims and think about this...

@smass: thanx for understanding me, despite my usual blast-like attitude....
(oh, I'm a GUY, though!

)

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Aug 23, 2002 10:54 am

Folks, everybody is entitled to an opinion. If you find that somebody else's opinion here doesn't agree with your own, that doesn't mean they're necessarily out to destroy all that is near and dear to you. Please remember the rules, and don't engage in attacks against other members. Thanks.