140 dead in Moscow hostage, death toll still rising...

Nightmare · Post by **Nightmare** » Sun Oct 27, 2002 9:12 pm

Originally posted by fable
The gas has now been blamed for 177 out of 178 of the deaths among the hostages. Another 200 hostages are on the critical list for gas poisoning. The police are still not saying what was in the gas, but the Russian press is openly speculating that it was a nerve gas.

Why the hell did the police use nerve gas?

Good points, @fable. The only good (although morbid) thing that's coming out of this is that this will perhaps shift some global attention to whats going on in Chechnya, rather then everyone just not knowing or caring.

CM · Post by CM » Mon Oct 28, 2002 1:07 am

117 dead due to Gas

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2365383.stm

How could they do that?

Ally dont apologise. You couldnt know what happened. You statements hold true period. I could have been more tactful and subtle, i wasnt and i got the reprimend needed. I am surprised i havent been banned over all the stupid things i have said. And you dont need to edit anything. But again i will edit what needs be.

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 4:20 am

About the gas:
Terrorists created a win-win situation.
Russians were incapable to handle it. And those russians are cold
murderers in their turn.

You enter normally, just one of the 18 women triggers the explosives,
ALL die, Alfa Brigade included
You don't enter, they kill the hostages
You end the war as per request, they explode nonetheless. Some hostages have already been killed, terrorists are there to die, there can't be a happy end.

ALL (russians because of the war, terrorists because of their blood thirst)
are responsible for those deaths now

About the "cause":
Wake up folks. You don't believe my argumentations? I'll tell you once
more. This was an act of international terrorism.
Chechenians have "little" to do with it.
Tell me one thing.
They filmed that video with proclamations (the one before the act, not the
one filmed in the theater), and sent it to Al-Jazeera.
Due to the distance, two things could have been reasonably expected:

the video arrives too early, the TV warns the world of the peril
the video arrives too late

Instead, all went fine!!! They video was released by the TV just
when the theater was ambushed.
Is Al-Jazeera connivent? Or was there an organization behind all this,
with ramifications all over the world (Al-Jazeera was FAR away..)
Or BOTH?
And please, someone answer to my points in the last post.

About the killing of innocents:
"this is not a justification, it's comprehension"
How many times I've heard this statement.
That's why killings go on.
People "comprehend" and accept cold murderers, for a reason, or for another.
I won't
I can have forgiveness, but not comprehension.
I don't have all the answers, I admit it. I may even contradict myself, don't know.
Just hope you'll never be the randomly chosen victim of a "comprehensible" murderer
(be it a terrorist, an Alfa agent with gas, or whatever)

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 7:50 am

Originally posted by Gaxx_Firkraag
Why the hell did the police use nerve gas?

As Fable said it was speculation, there is no proof of what gas was used and frankly I feel we wont know for a while.

One has to question why they did such a cack handed job of dealing with the threat, I heard a story of 5 SAS men taking on 400(iirc) men single handedly and killing every last one of them during the Al Queda business (I will check up on that and post the real figures tonight), surely Russia has a similar anti terrorist branch? Wouldn't a proactive assault have been preferable to just gassing everyone? I suppose it might have been the russian's looking after themselves, ergo they didn't lose any of their own lives

Nippy · Post by **Nippy** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 7:56 am

@ Mr Sleep

That would be the sort of thing the SAS would say, and fair play to them, but stories and programs about them make them arrogant, and therefor dangerous. The SBS (Special Boat Squadron) are less known and trained a little bit better than the SAS, still the SBS and SAS are both the best in the world.

Secondly, the Russian's do have a special forces, called Spetsnaz, if you want to read about them, here seems to be a pretty good site about it.

I can see Littiz's arguments about this to be honest, but I am going to keep myself open about it, I don't much about the incident to be honest.

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 8:04 am

I'd like to repeat what I've said before, since no Russian spokesperson who calls the Chechnyans in the theatre a gang of terrorists has dealt with the question:

"So what's the answer? If the Chechyns don't perform acts of terror against civilians in Russia to attract attention, what avenue is left to them? I'd really like to hear some good solutions from people who condemn the Chechyns that acted as they did in Moscow. I don't have any answers, myself--I detest terrorism. But you see, I detest rebel *and* state-sponsored terrorism, which puts a different complexion on the events in Chechnya."

Terrorists aren't comicbook villains who spring out of nowhere.
You kill a young adult's family, take away their property, rape the women--and create a terrorist.

What should the Chechnyans do, either to draw world attention, or to get back at the power which has destroyed not just their nation but nearly every family in it? Sign petitions?

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 8:06 am

Originally posted by Nippy
That would be the sort of thing the SAS would say, and fair play to them, but stories and programs about them make them arrogant, and therefor dangerous. The SBS (Special Boat Squadron) are less known and trained a little bit better than the SAS, still the SBS and SAS are both the best in the world.

Now you mention it, it was the SBS not SAS, again I will get the figures tonight.

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 8:11 am

Originally posted by fable
"So what's the answer?

I actually think this might have acheived its objective to some degree, it has certainly brought more awareness of the problem, just like the other terrorist actions of the last few years, the huge amount of media that dissects these things also highlights the problems which is exactly what the terrorists/freedom fighters want. So in some ways this may save lives as well as taking them.

(not that I condone their actions)

I know that didn't exactly answer your question fable, I will make an effort to come up with a theory later

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 8:18 am

Originally posted by Mr Sleep
I actually think this might have acheived its objective to some degree, it has certainly brought more awareness of the problem, just like the other terrorist actions of the last few years, the huge amount of media that dissects these things also highlights the problems which is exactly what the terrorists/freedom fighters want. So in some ways this may save lives as well as taking them.

I'm afraid that *is* one of two answers--the better one, in fact, if it truly does result in anything. I don't know that it will. If the Russian government ignores the Chechin situation, or worse yet (as seems to be happening) orders a crackdown in Chechnya involving still worsening conditions with hostages taken, more public executions, etc, then we will only be seeing the beginning of the second answer: increasing waves of Chechyn violence hurled at Russian civilians. This will be done to make them feel at least a tiny part of the misery that the Russian government has forced on Chechnya.

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 8:22 am

The next question is what will the West's reaction be to this or is attacking Saddam thus deflecting questions about important issues to become the US's reaction?

What about France, UK, Italy, Spain, Switzerland, Sweden et al? How are they going to react, this effects us all!

HighLordDave · Post by **HighLordDave** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 11:09 am

As our friend Mr Sleep mentions, what is the reaction of the US and the west to the Russians using an unnamed gas in the raid on the theater?

I have been watching and reading the comments of several military and security analysts on some of the major news outlets and they all seem to say that the symptoms which were observed from the hostages and terrorists (vomiting, paralysis, death) are consistent with exposure to nerve gas.

If the Russians did use a nerve agent, they have used a "weapon of mass destruction" as defined by Dubya and his cronies, and that is the very reason why he is rattling his sabre at Iraq. What course will Dubya take against Russia now that they have unleashed a chemical weapon?

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 11:27 am

@Sleep and Nippy: This was a Spetsnaz operation. The gas they used is not known, media speculate in nerve agents, cyanid gas and sleeping gas, ie some fast working aneastethic. Some experts say a nerve agents would not have had such a quick effect.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 11:50 am

Originally posted by HighLordDave
If the Russians did use a nerve agent, they have used a "weapon of mass destruction" as defined by Dubya and his cronies, and that is the very reason why he is rattling his sabre at Iraq. What course will Dubya take against Russia now that they have unleashed a chemical weapon?

This is a very interesting question. Washington post writes:

The unidentified gas used by Russian security forces in their raid on a Moscow theater appears to have been an incapacitating agent that may fall into the gray area of international restrictions on chemical weapons, U.S. experts said yesterday.

The full article.

Nightmare · Post by **Nightmare** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 4:10 pm

What will the US do? Nothing. They won't do anything about Russia. Why? Because they can't pick on Russia, while they can pick on Iraq. The US needs Russia.

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 5:15 pm

Originally posted by Gaxx_Firkraag
What will the US do? Nothing. They won't do anything about Russia. Why? Because they can't pick on Russia, while they can pick on Iraq. The US needs Russia.

Which puts us right back in the middle of the game of weighing greater against lesser evils--and everytime we play it, we always end up getting bitten in the butt. Hell, Iraq was our ally and a very small lesser evil. We supported some of the worst dictators South America has seen in the 20th century, considering them lesser evils, and we're still distrusted down there. We forget that Great Evils are objective, but subjective impressions that can change with time. For what it's worth, I'm in favor of supporting good, relatively honest regimes. That way, no matter what changes, at least you know nobody is going to be hating you for putting in power the guy who killed his sister.

Koveras · Post by **Koveras** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 8:12 pm

I heard a report saying that the gas were high concentrations of morphine or something. They said that if it had been nerve gas, then everybody should've been dead since the gas was sprayed to about every inch of the theater. I still don't get why the special forces did this.

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 10:24 pm

If it wasn't nerve gas, why after all this time won't the Russian authorities say what it was?

Incidentally, Dubbyah has said that he "understands it is the terrorists with whom the blame lies." At least he's consistent in his inability to understand the complexity of issues. But really, what's so damned complex about understanding that when you destroy an entire nation, some of its people are going to refuse to simply lie down and die?

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Tue Oct 29, 2002 4:02 am

It was 400 btw.

I notice a lack of comment by the worlds media, they aren't running twenty press confrences on the hour to deplore this vile act by both sides...funny that

Tamerlane · Post by **Tamerlane** » Tue Oct 29, 2002 4:22 am

Originally posted by fable
If it wasn't nerve gas, why after all this time won't the Russian authorities say what it was?

News is coming out that the Russian government has ordered that the hostages be treated with nalaxone, used to treat people suffering from opiate. The BBC has dedicated their front page to it here, although I'd prefer to hear an offical response instead of constant speculation.

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Tue Oct 29, 2002 6:17 am

I would say this is most like the agent used.

This substance has been identified as ETORPHINE, a highly potent and rapid acting opiate used in veterinary medicine for large animals. Minute amounts of this substance can exert serious effects leading to coma. It is used in large animals as a restraint for surgical procedures. It is at least 400 times more potent than morphine in humans. It may also be absorbed through broken skin or mucous membranes. Naloxone is the antidote, if used in time. Meat that has been injected with it is not for human consumption. Effects are tachycardia or bradycardia, hypertension or hypotension, respiratory depression, cyanosis, temperature drop. The outcome of exposure to minute amounts in humans may be fatal. It is not intended for domestic animals.

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