GameBanshee Forums

Originally posted by Aqua-chan
I'm sorry, Fable. I didn't realize that you missed my replies that much. Do you like the catsuit? It's black and red. I can write this ceremony into your BoS if you'd like.

*giggle* ...I just love the fashion sense we SYM women have...

Scayde - This kinda goes in responce to something you asked me a while back. Yes, school was a traumatic experience (Now remember, I went to a Christian school!). Students didn't really care until they were old enough to understand - about fourth grade. I was picked on until they got used to it and accepted it (or just got bored with me) - around my junior year. I recal recieving two seperate death threats, but I was such a smartass then that I would tell them to bring it on (Not necessarily the best thing to say to somebody in Missouri). Can't say I've had a lot of problems through college: people are a little too busy with their own lives to worry about mine.

Sorry to hear you had a tough time when you were a kid...I guess I was wondering because I also had a very "unconventional" childhood. I will PM you the details sometime if you are interested, but sufice it to say that there were always a lot of questions from other kids, and more than a few snide remarks. There were even a few parents that forbade their kids from associating with me and my brother and sister. The price of dancing to your own drum I guess..

I have a very strong sense of religious freedom. I respect others in their decisions as to what road to take along the way, however, I just hate it when I'm nagged at to convert. That is when I get a little ticked, but I'm pretty good-natured about other beliefs.

Way to be Wish more people were like you

I remember last year... We rounded up a bunch of my friends. My birthday is on the Autumnal Equinox and it was a full moon. My friends and I went out in the fa-reezing cold in the middle of the night to perform some rites and such, but because I live in a subdivision, our neighbors came out for a smoke and saw us all there in a circle and chanting. The candles kept going out in the wind, and we accidently dumped apple oil into one of my companion's eyes. I'm not ashamed we were seen, but we felt kind of silly. So before going in, as a sign for them to stop staring, we all started howling at the moon. Its a kind of religion you can follow and still have fun with, but I wouldn't recommend going and howling at the moon for your own pleasure, folks.

You are so awesome

Originally posted by fable
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You remind me of a passage in one of my favorite novels, Cabell's Jurgen. At that point, Cabell has visited Hell, which he discovered was a democracy in which the predominant religion was Patriotism. Now, Cabell climbs to Heaven's gates, where he meets St. Peter. There, they discuss the fact that all the saints and angels, taking pity on god, have made a giant shield to cover the earth, and keep the sounds of rhetoric invoking god's blessing and holy books for everything from looting to rape to war from rising to heaven.

Sounds like a book I will have to read

Very nice. Probably the results of your parents being from a later, more skeptical generation than my own. When I initially broke from my parents' religious views (about age 13) and said I couldn't make any sense out of their holy books and didn't believe in any god, my mother, greatly concerned, said out loud that I should be sent to a psychologist for examination. It took a while to sort myself out, and decide what I felt was right for me, but I'll never forget her declaration. On the brighter side, I suppose it was better than hauling me before a community of her peers as a heretic.

I am not at all sure it was their generation. They were both children of the Great Depression and raised in very conservative families. My Mom was from the Church of Christ, and my Dad was Catholic. Somwhere along the line they both broke with their teaching and set their own paths. I was very fortunate to have grown up in a family that was more open to other ideas and lifestyles than my peers' families were. They were both artists, and self employed so we went where their fancy took them. We moved around alot, 13 states, 37 cities, alot of exposure to different ways of doing things, both liberal Democrats *giggle* .....It was an interesting childhood

Originally posted by Scayde

Sounds like a book I will have to read

I am not at all sure it was their generation. They were both children of the Great Depression and raised in very conservative families. My Mom was from the Church of Christ, and my Dad was Catholic. Somwhere along the line they both broke with their teaching and set their own paths. I was very fortunate to have grown up in a family that was more open to other ideas and lifestyles than my peers' families were. They were both artists, and self employed so we went where their fancy took them. We moved around alot, 13 states, 37 cities, alot of exposure to different ways of doing things, both liberal Democrats *giggle* .....It was an interesting childhood

This sounds very similar to my own childhood. My father was raised in a Southern Baptist background, whereas my mother was raised Roman Catholic in the Northeast. Quite an interesting admixture, here, to be sure. Both had parted ways with their original teaching, and shared a distaste for "religion" in general. My father was "burned" by his experiences as a teenager in Church society, and my mother was (and still is ) quite the feminist who was fiercely independent, and not at all interested in church attendance or doctrine. Therefore I was free to pursue whatever sources of knowledge I desired, and these were available in our home as I grew up. I dove into them at a very early age, as I learned how to read before the age of five (well, I strarted with comic books at first, then progressed to more "solid" forms of literature ). I would often drive my father nuts with my steady stream of questions.

I led a nomadic life as well, moving approximately every two or three years, up to the age of 17. I never suffered the sort of ostracism you did as a child because I lived in military communities, which as a whole are generally more tolerant of cultural and religious diversity. I had friends of varying ethnic and cultural backgrounds, which my parents were always very approving of. It wasn't until I was an adult that I encountered any sort of persecution for my beliefs.

Originally posted by Scayde
Sorry to hear you had a tough time when you were a kid...I guess I was wondering because I also had a very "unconventional" childhood. I will PM you the details sometime if you are interested, but sufice it to say that there were always a lot of questions from other kids, and more than a few snide remarks. There were even a few parents that forbade their kids from associating with me and my brother and sister. :The price of dancing to your own drum I guess..

Way to be Wish more people were like you

You are so awesome [/b]

Heh... We got punished for dancing. Period. The teachers didn't like us doin' that. But really, the school was good about not letting the parents know about the little demon girl in their classes. I guess the other kids figured that it was more fun to pick on me while I was in school instead of having me booted out by telling their folks. I've had two Book of Shadows destroyed by one way or another, but I was smart enough to keep duplicates. I was so proud of myself when the second one was destroyed and I didn't have to try and remember everything that was in it so I could copy it again.

I wish more people were like me, too... But then it would be a scary place. I think the world only needs one of me...

Thank you! *hugs*

@Aqua-chan, you may have missed my post, above, to you. It's a way back. I was wondering: what branch of Wicca you're a member of, and for how long?

(Btw, you may want to read further up. There are at least three Wiccans in our oddly assorted SYM group.)

Originally posted by Gwendri
Fable, I have a couple of questions.

@Gwendri, I haven't forgotten your questions. I've just been working under some tight deadlines, but I should be finished later, today.

Originally posted by Gwendri
Fable, I have a couple of questions. Do you have any children? If so, how do you handle their religious knowledge? I have two children (14 and 10), they know that I am a Wiccan but I do not force them to participate. I answer any questions they ask about Wicca and any other religion and encourage them to follow what they believe.

No children, no. I've given some thought to the question of what I'd have done as far as "religious training" (the euphemism for stuffing one's own religious views down the throat of a child who isn't of sufficient mental age to consider its value) is concerned. FWIW, I suspect I'd have helped any child of mine learn meditation, develop all their senses, and keep in touch with their emotions. I would have invited them into the circle at an early age, but would have allowed them to make such choices about their religion as they saw fit when they grew up, even if I disagreed with them. At least, so I want to think I'd do. Not having had the experience, I can't really say with any certainty.

Also, are there any books or other material that you would recommend? I have found it very difficult to find good Wicca information aside from the fanatical.

@Gwendri, it was this question that had me thinking for a while. In the end, I decided not to recommend any specific book, but to recommend specific values to seek out and to avoid in any book you encounter.

1) Look for books that set forth a reasonable historical scenario for Wicca as a modern, syncretic religion. Send up a warning flag for books that proclaim that Wicca is an ancient religion that has been passed down from coven to coven over the ages, and that the author has the Knowledge of the Ancients to provide. There is no evidence that Wicca fits this romanticized scenario--and I say that, despite being an initiated Gardinerian witch, which derives its "tradition" from Gerald Gardiner and Doreen Valiente's claims in the 1940s to being members of a surviving Celtic coven. I'd like to thnk that what we've got is really good, but that doesn't mean its ancient. More importantly, that doesn't matter.

My point is that if a religious book has to pride itself on its age, and its leaders have to pride themselves on their degrees, their coven numbers, or their vaunted wisdom, then they're not a religion: they're a carny show. And much as I enjoy an occasional ride, I don't like to be taken for one. Religion isn't about swirling a dark cape about one's shoulders and making vaguely ominous pronouncements in a voice like Charleston Heston.

2) Go for books that identify with the positive. Watch out for books that spend a fair amount of time playing spite or hate games with Judeo-Christianity. It's perfectly okay to point out the differences between Wicca and monotheistic religions in a book, IMO. It's another thing to harrangue, or to engage in a kind of obnoxious triumphalism. A good Wiccan book isn't about what we're against. It's about what we are, what we believe, what we're for, and how we act. "When, Why, If," by Robin Wood, is a book worth pondering for purchase.

3) Find books that don't thrust men and women into stereotypical roles, but instead, view men and women as equal partners in the universe, sharing in all its delights (save seeding, reproduction, lactation, and fairly obvious stufflikethatthere). Wiccans don't care much for partriarchal monotheism, and some of 'em have tried to get back at Western culture by creating a religion that glorifies the X chromosome. That's political dialectic, not religion, IMO. DJ Conway's "The Complete Craft" is an example of this, with its "peaceful matriarchy" in the prehistoric past where everyone worshipped the Goddess until evil patriarchalists came along and spoiled everything. Starhawk is another very popular author with a very similar view, except that she's never made any bones about being a non-Wiccan, er, Feminist witch. (I know that sounds confusing, but then, it is.)

4) Look for books that contain practical exercises for simple meditation, concentration, sensitivity, and emotional balancing. You can't work well in a more complex circle if you're personally out of control.

5)Ignore books that promise to reveal the contents of someone's Book of Shadows--in other words, what they've been taught, all the rituals and other info that are supposed to be handed for copying only to other coven members. What they've got to share isn't worth taking. Anyone who professes to know it all doesn't know a steaming meadow heap. An example of this are the popular works of Silver RavenWolf, which are filled with factually demonstrable errors. But given her high profile publicity hype, it's fairly safe to say that she's in the writing game for the money.

If you come across a specific book that you'd like my opinion on, let me know. I've hardly read 'em all, but I might have some slight knowledge of the author, or the work in question. You might also want to check this website. I've found the people who review the books on it to be very level-headed fellow Wiccans. (One decent book that's recommended there is Ray Buckland's Complete Book of Witchcraft, but give serious thought to their well-expressed reservations about it.)

Too bad you don't live in this area. You make me willing to start up a teaching grove. (Wicca can be done by a Solitaire, but I don't think it's advisable to start that way. A good group, rather than a good group of books, is really necessary to begin work on the path.)

Good luck, and Blessed Be.

Originally posted by fable
Starhawk is another very popular author with a very similar view, except that she's never made any bones about being a non-Wiccan, er, Feminist witch.

Sadly, I read two of her books back in the early 80s. These were my only source of information concerning Wicca, until this thread.

Originally posted by Gwalchmai
Sadly, I read two of her books back in the early 80s. These were my only source of information concerning Wicca, until this thread.

It's just that kind of publicity given to the colorful, inaccurate fringe that I've always objected to in the US media. And as we both know, this kind of thing happens repeatedly. I can still remember how when bebop jazz caught on, talkative Lionel Hampton--a good swing performer, but one who never played a note of bebop in his life--made headlines with his ridiculous pseudo-pontificating about the "different kinds of bebop: there's rebop, and debop," etc. The beat craze generated tons of interviews with lame but colorful fake beatniks, and the media had a field day hunting up the wierdest looking and sounding New Agers when the 1960s hit.

At least Starhawk never pretended to be a Wiccan. But by stating she was a witch, along with other, similar feminist witches, she gave the media all the ammunition it needed to create a pop myth that excludes half the human race from worship.

Sorry if I sound testy, but I'm irritated at that--not you--and I still see these assumptions a lot. I suppose if I want to have my religious views taken seriously, I should get a sex change.

And no, it's not an option.

Originally posted by fable
At least Starhawk never pretended to be a Wiccan. But by stating she was a witch, along with other, similar feminist witches, she gave the media all the ammunition it needed to create a pop myth that excludes half the human race from worship.

I’m not sure a distinction existed back in the 80s. My impression is that the term 'Wicca', as it is popularly used, is a relatively recent phenomenon - say, of the 90s. Therefore, Starhawk defining herself as a witch set herself up to be a speaker for the entire neo-paganisitc/Wiccan/witchcraft religion. What I mean is, Wicca was not commonly understood to be anything different from Starhawk's witchcraft back in the 80s.

Yes, I know that 'wicca' is an old Anglo-Saxon term that's been around for a couple thousand years, but it has only recently entered the lexicon of popular understanding (mostly due to that cute little redhead on Buffy the Vampire Slayer ).

I say this based on my observations of the over-currents of popular society. You may have different perceptions from your experience within Wicca?

Well, I know we were referring to ourselves both as witches and Wiccans back in the late 1970s, when I first officially became one. But it was probably at that time that some sense of difference between the two first arose. The feminist witches were definitely not Wiccans, though they were referring to themselves as such, because they didn't follow such Wiccan redes as the equality of all, and the need for balance. (And no, we're not druids. And before anybody asks, I cannot cast Insect Plague.)

But I agree with you: by calling herself a witch and leaving the Wiccan issue unexplored, Starhawk effectively assumed the mantle for both. More should have been done to counter this.

Originally posted by Scayde
Although I am not a Wiccan, I am always a student...and at least some of your suggestions will soon find their way into my library....thanks again.........

Your welcome. If you have any other questions, no guarantees (and of course, I'm only speaking for myself), but I'll be glad to try and answer 'em.

Thank you!

Thank you very much for the suggestions Fable!

I have tried to be very open with my children about religion and what I believe. They have been included in my meditations and circle. I do not force them to participate and encourage them to make their own decisions. The main guidance that I have given is to be open minded, listen to their emotions and heart and to feel. I believe that "feeling" is very important. Feeling the world, people and energy around us.

I appreciate the website that you recommended. I have and will visit it many times. Your suggestions as to what to look for and not to look for in books is very helpful. What is your opinion of Scott Cunningham's books?

I also wish that we lived closer together. It would be an honor to be a participant in your teaching grove. I too understand the benefits of belonging to a group, but unfortunately that is very difficult in this area.

Blessed Be!
Gwendri

Originally posted by fable
And before anybody asks, I cannot cast Insect Plague.)

Geez fable, what good are ya?

Sorry for the intrusion...My best friend is Wiccan (I however am one of those evil Christian-type people ), so I find this thread interesting

Re: Thank you!

Originally posted by Gwendri
Thank you very much for the suggestions Fable!

I have tried to be very open with my children about religion and what I believe. They have been included in my meditations and circle. I do not force them to participate and encourage them to make their own decisions. The main guidance that I have given is to be open minded, listen to their emotions and heart and to feel. I believe that "feeling" is very important. Feeling the world, people and energy around us.

My pleasure, and I think those are great things to teach your kids.

I appreciate the website that you recommended. I have and will visit it many times. Your suggestions as to what to look for and not to look for in books is very helpful. What is your opinion of Scott Cunningham's books?

Cunningham is, to me, the Wiccan equivalent of a Christian Contemplative. He had no concerns about theology, or tradition. He spoke and wrote intuitively, and it came from the heart. I'm inclined to still think that a good group with a protected Book of Shadows is important, but I can't bring to mind a single author other than Cunningham who exemplies more what Wicca and the Craft are all about. Mind, he makes it seem easier to get "there," wherever "there" is for him, than it really is.

By the way, another author whom I would recommend is Kerr Cuhulain. He's a Canadian police officer who's a Wiccan. He has a wonderful slant on the roles we can assume in life and in the circle. I suggest this book for a look at some of his insights. Well worth reading. And Blessed Be.

Originally posted by Scayde
Wow...Great to see this back on the front page. I guess with Lent approaching, the next round of questions should revolve around the Rights of Beltain........So anybody got anything planned?

Beltane's still a ways off--we've just gotten past Imbolc, at this point. I'll probably just do a private circle/ritual of celebration. The only Wiccan groups in my area are "females only" or "females rule," respectively, and I find that as much a distortion of my religion as I'm sure many Christians find the "male enclave" still ruling a number of their sects.

(As I think I mentioned earlier, my last circle split up when the two leaders left to live in Florida. It was a very small group at the time, a few newcomers plus myself, and I didn't feel like continuing it. Too much work right now, if you're going to do right, and it's definitely not worth doing if you're going to do it wrong.)

Alternatively, there are generic pagan gatherings for Wicca, but they're open to the public, announced heavily in advance, and usually draw a lot of gawkers, protesters, and people seeking attention. I enjoy a party as much as the next pagan, but that's not my idea of one.

Originally posted by fable
The only Wiccan groups in my area are "females only" or "females rule," respectively, and I find that as much a distortion of my religion as I'm sure many Christians find the "male enclave" still ruling a number of their sects.

I've frequently wondered about this.

Do you feel that perhaps many (not all) women turn to Wicca not from any heartfelt spiritual belief, but from a desire/need to find power and a voice they never had? Last I heard (about three years ago I guess), Wicca was spreading especially rapidly among young adolescent and teenage girls. IMO that's the right age to be looking for a way to be heard in the world and to be in control of one's own life, and the "magic spells" of witchcraft may appear to be an answer to many young women of that age group. What do you think?...

As someone has mentioned already, we cannot forget the impact that programs like 'Buffy' make on young women. They see girls having a massive range of powers from controlling the surroundings, modifying looks, summoning demons etc, and a lot of young girls busted up on hormones and looking for vengence are bound to find solace in the realms of TV and the "super-natural".

NB, I take no issue with Wiccan, Witchery or any form of relegion like that, 'twas merely an observation from my POV.