We are at War

VoodooDali · Post by **VoodooDali** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 10:49 am

[censored]

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 11:31 am

Originally posted by Lazarus
@Xandax: I agree completely.

Wierd - usually nobody agrees much with my perspective on different matters

Jaesha · Post by **Jaesha** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 11:53 am

I can't believe Bush didn't make a show of it, something like "Saddam, you are going to Hell and your country is going with you!" ...Any decent American would've done that, no?

That would have been so... Amercan.

Karembeu · Post by **Karembeu** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 1:49 pm

Originally posted by Xandax
Wierd - usually nobody agrees much with my perspective on different matters

Sooner or later that was bound to happen....

Seems a second "assault" was initiated a couple of hours ago. Latest news is that a small scale ground invasion has commenced.

Damn, I really wish there was some kind of independent news station that one could trust...

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 1:56 pm

update

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/03/20/ir ... mbat030320

I wouldn't call the CBC independant... but it is more objective than CNN (not that this takes much effort...)

Karembeu · Post by **Karembeu** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 2:03 pm

@DW: Thanks for the link...appreciated...

Seems they couldn't stay away from the oil-wells after all.

Any comments on the so called Iraqi "Scud-attack" against Kuwait earlier today. Surely the Scud's have a longer range than the "Al-samoud" missiles? Does this mean that Iraq have already used weapons that they just a couple of days before claimed they did not have?!? Thoughts?!?

Ned Flanders · Post by **Ned Flanders** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 2:36 pm

I thought the same thing this morning, @Karembeu.

Audace · Post by **Audace** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 2:53 pm

Some Dutch defense expert said that it were artillery rockets (which they are allowed to have) and an old cruise missile(which they aren't allowed to have). Dunno where he gets his info though.

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 2:54 pm

Originally posted by Karembeu
@DW: Thanks for the link...appreciated...
Seems they couldn't stay away from the oil-wells after all.

Any comments on the so called Iraqi "Scud-attack" against Kuwait earlier today. Surely the Scud's have a longer range than the "Al-samoud" missiles? Does this mean that Iraq have already used weapons that they just a couple of days before claimed they did not have?!? Thoughts?!?

Is that why some of the News Media is acting so surprised over their use? (Obviously, I haven't been following the news much lately - too depressing - I didn't know Iraq claimed they had no SCUDS.)

Scayde · Post by **Scayde** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 2:55 pm

Thanks @ Everyone for the links. It helps to have a balanced perspective, when you hear the topic from different angles.

@Xandax: Thank yu for that post, It was well stated, adn did more to express my thoughts than I am currently able to do for myself. I did not intend to start a thread on Bush-bashing, nor did I want to paint my country as a monster. There is enough blame in this travastry to go around for a while.

Thanks again fable, I was hoping to have a place to express our prayers and support for the innocents of war, the soldiers who are called to arms by their respective nations, and for the improved wisdom of our leaders, that since they did not see fit to prevent this war, at least they will have the wisdom to end it quicky, and humanely.

Already Iraq is engaging in 'scorched earth policy'.

originally by Karembeu
Any comments on the so called Iraqi "Scud-attack" against Kuwait earlier today. Surely the Scud's have a longer range than the "Al-samoud" missiles? Does this mean that Iraq have already used weapons that they just a couple of days before claimed they did not have?!? Thoughts?!?

@Karembeu: Yes, but it was no surprise. As I said, there is enough blame to go around for a very long time

HighLordDave · Post by **HighLordDave** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 3:18 pm

@Karembeu:
Under the terms of the peace treaty negotiated between the US coalition and Iraq in 1991, Iraq is permitted to have missiles with a maximum range of 150 km (about 93 miles). The original itineration of the SCUD, built by the Soviet Union beginning in the mid-1960s, had a range of 180 km. It is a medium-range ballistic missile that is directly descended from the German V-2.

The missile was originally designed to carry a 100 kiloton nuclear warhead, 900 kg (2000 pound) conventional warhead or a chemical warhead. There have been several variations of the missile, most of which reduce the size of the warhead to take on extra fuel and gain extra range. The variation with the longest range is called the Al-Abbas and has a range of about 800 km, but only a 125 kg warhead.

I think the weapons inspectors were focusing on the Al-Samoud II missile rather than the SCUD because it was believed that the majority of Iraq's SCUD missiles were either fired or destroyed in the last Gulf War. The Al-Samoud II, which is also a ballistic missile, is believed to have an effective range between 160 and 195 km. About 120 Al-Samoud II missiles were believed to have been built.

Another reason why I don't think we heard a lot about the SCUDs is it's really a poor weapon system. It is horribly inaccurate and old. On the other hand, the Al-Samoud II is a newer design (circa 1997) and is believed to have benefitted from new guidance and control systems that were absent on the SCUD.

Iraq also has a couple of other missile projects in the works (they were both officially cancelled, but from what I've read, many people in the intelligence community believe both projects to have gone underground), the G-1 surface-to-surface missile and the J-1 surface-to-air missile. Both are based on the Soviet Volga anti-aircraft missile. The declared range of both weapons is about 100 km, although variants are believed to exist that have ranges of up to 300 km, if the propellant is changed from liquid fuel to a solid fuel.

Yshania · Post by **Yshania** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 3:33 pm

Posted by Frogus

Tony Blair has stabbed his electorate in the back, by failing to use any democratic discussion or appeal to the obvious popular opinion before deciding to lead his country into a deadly and immoral and unprofitable war.

Without getting too deep into whether Blair is right for the job or not, the simple fact is he was voted in by a majority, a majority that have put him in the position to make decisions on their behalf. That is his job, to lead the country. What is our alternative? The conservatives are fully behind him, and probably moreso than his own party, and were the Tories in they would not put it to a vote either...when was the last time we were invited to take part in any kind of referendum anyway?

LBC invited their listeners to vote today (Ok, so it won't have any impact but...) 66% of their listeners backed the decision to go to war. This is no indication of my own opinion, only that had it gone to a referendum, we may still have our boys over there anyway.

Originally posted by Jaesha

I can't believe Bush didn't make a show of it, something like "Saddam, you are going to Hell and your country is going with you!" ...Any decent American would've done that, no?

That would have been so... Amercan.

What do you mean?

Posted by Karembeu

Any comments on the so called Iraqi "Scud-attack" against Kuwait earlier today. Surely the Scud's have a longer range than the "Al-samoud" missiles? Does this mean that Iraq have already used weapons that they just a couple of days before claimed they did not have?!? Thoughts?!?

Actually, I had heard that weapons inspectors had previously indicated that Iraq may still be in possession of Scuds?

Saddam had stated initially that they no longer held these missiles, since they exceeded the range set. Never-the-less, I was not surprised to hear the news that there had been a Scud attack, since I believed that Iraq still had some in her possession.

Posted by Audace

Some Dutch defense expert said that it were artillery rockets (which they are allowed to have) and an old cruise missile(which they aren't allowed to have). Dunno where he gets his info though.

Apparently, and according to the reporters out in Kuwait, there have been four Scud missile attacks on Kuwait.

Posted by Scayde

Thanks again fable, I was hoping to have a place to express our prayers and support for the innocents of war, the soldiers who are called to arms by their respective nations, and for the improved wisdom of our leaders, that since they did not see fit to prevent this war, at least they will have the wisdom to end it quicky, and humanely.

*hug* sadly, according to a London radio station (LBC), Blair has been quoted as saying we would be naive to believe the war will be over any time soon.

Latest:

1. British troups have now mobilised in southern Iraq, heading towards a strategic location.

2. Reports that in 2 of 5 suspicious bottles found in a French train station on Monday, Ricin was found.

VoodooDali · Post by **VoodooDali** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 3:37 pm

Originally posted by Scayde

Already Iraq is engaging in 'scorched earth policy'.

(

Just curious what you mean by 'scorched earth policy.' The term originated from Guatemala (where I lived for a while) in the early 80's - for the policy of burning villages to the ground. Over 400 were destroyed and no longer exist. I have the feeling you mean setting oil wells on fire? I wonder if there's a term for that yet?

Anyway, I'm off to Times Square for the emergency convergence. It is very cold and rainy here. Thousands are expected to show up. While it is legal to protest on sidewalks (if you don't block pedestrian traffic), it is illegal to protest on streets. Obviously, it will be impossible to do this legally, and judging from my experiences last month, and last Tuesday, the NYPD will probably get really ugly. On top of that the Patriot Act has broadened the definition of "terrorist" to the point that demonstrators can be considered "terrorists." I am nervous and I don't want to get hurt again or arrested, but my conscience will not allow me to sit at home and watch it all play out on TV. It seems to me that the majority of New Yorkers are not at all happy about this war, esp. since the ensuing terrorist attacks that will be unleashed upon our country as a result will probably happen guess where? Not in middle America, but right here in the city I love, New York.

Yshania · Post by **Yshania** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 3:38 pm

Take good care, Voo *hug*

Audace · Post by **Audace** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 3:40 pm

Originally posted by Yshania

Apparently, and according to the reporters out in Kuwait, there have been four Scud missile attacks on Kuwait.

I know what the reporters say, it's been all over the news as well.
I'm just voicing what a guy who is supposed to know about stuff like this said. But like I said, I dunno where he got his info.

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 3:42 pm

Originally posted by Yshania
2. Reports that in 2 of 5 suspicious bottles found in a French train station on Monday, Ricin was found.

Do you have a source for that? That would be a rude shock to the French, would it not, considering their staunch opposition to the war.

Audace · Post by **Audace** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 3:44 pm

Originally posted by Sojourner
Do you have a source for that? That would be a rude shock to the French, would it not, considering their staunch opposition to the war.

Why would that be a rude shock?

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 3:45 pm

As in, why would someone target the French?

Yshania · Post by **Yshania** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 3:48 pm

Originally posted by Sojourner

Do you have a source for that? That would be a rude shock to the French, would it not, considering their staunch opposition to the war.

I have CNN breaking news on Sky at the moment, they reported it as I posted. They said the other 3 bottles held a powder of sorts (unconfirmed) but that two were tested and found to hold traces of Ricin.

@Audace, I know you were just passing on information

It is at times like this that we hear of many experts filling gaps in news with speculation. All we can do here is share and discuss what we have learned...

Audace · Post by **Audace** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 3:48 pm

As in, why do you think the war in Iraq and the two bottles that were found in the train are related incidents?