Bodhi or Shadow Thieves?

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Wed Apr 30, 2003 5:19 pm

Originally posted by fable
My impression is that if you arbitrarily kill several Shadow Thieves without first accepting any of the quests to do so, your reputation suffers, and Keldorn, Aerie, Anomen, Minsc and Mazzy ultimately leave.

Actually, if you kill a Shadow Thief before accepting a quest to do so, Arkanis Gath will put an end to you--and the game--very quickly. But your Reputation doesn't suffer for killing one. I guess no one misses them.

In any case, no one thinks less of you for it.

Arkanis Gath ceases to be a menace if you side with Bodhi, of course, and you can kill him and loot his corpse. You won't get his insta-kill sword, but he carries the Rifthome Axe +3, which is a pretty nice weapon. (I guess that's an incentive to side with Bodhi.)

BTW, you're welcome. I enjoyed posting those dialogues.

JackOfClubs · Post by **JackOfClubs** » Wed Apr 30, 2003 8:20 pm

Another factor is that the Shadow Thieves try to kill you in Irenicus' Dungeon but the Guild Vampires you meet in Athkatla pretty much leave you alone. At least one of them warns you not to get involved, and another sets her defected Shadow Thieves to kill you. There is a group of vampires which tries to kill you, but only if you agree to help their enemy.

This isn't exactly a moral issue, but it does make me less likely to trust the Shadow Thieves initially. Also, Bodhi does keep her word at least until you get to Spellhold, and even then she saves your life (albeit temporarily and for her own amusement).

I really wish you could fight the Shadow Thieves in Chap 6, or that the Radiant Heart or one of the Temples could be petitioned for aid in Chap 2.

Eriks · Post by **Eriks** » Thu May 01, 2003 1:19 am

Maybe someone should make a mod to allow the Radiant Heart to help you out. That would be awesome!

Antimatter · Post by **Antimatter** » Thu May 01, 2003 5:58 am

That's what I was saying earlier

. It would be a sweet mod. Like you could be sent to destroy the thieves and when you walk in there are vamps already fighting them. The only hard thing to explain is how did the Radiant Heart get into dealing with Saeman? If someone can figure that one out it'd work

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu May 01, 2003 6:06 am

Originally posted by VonDondu
Actually, if you kill a Shadow Thief before accepting a quest to do so, Arkanis Gath will put an end to you--and the game--very quickly. But your Reputation doesn't suffer for killing one. I guess no one misses them. In any case, no one thinks less of you for it.

Have you tried killing one of the ST being attacked by a vampire? In one of my games, I tried it. Reputation dropped.

BTW, you're welcome. I enjoyed posting those dialogues.

I can only hope the same writers provide the dialog, randomized and otherwise, in Bioware's upcoming Star Wars CRPG.

IHateUsernames · Post by **IHateUsernames** » Thu May 01, 2003 8:11 am

Originally posted by fable
Have you tried killing one of the ST being attacked by a vampire? In one of my games, I tried it. Reputation dropped.

That is because Arkanis Gath does not show up when you kill them. with the others you will be (almost)insta killed by him so no need to lose reputation

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu May 01, 2003 8:44 am

Originally posted by IHateUsernames
That is because Arkanis Gath does not show up when you kill them. with the others you will be (almost)insta killed by him so no need to lose reputation

Oh, I agree. My point is that as you can lose reputation from killing Shadow Thieves, it follows that they are not seen by the game as inherently evil. On the other hand, you can dine on all the vampires you want without ever suffering a rep penalty, which means that the game does recognize their quintessential villainy.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Thu May 01, 2003 8:57 am

So in other words, if you killed a Shadow Thief without being given a quest to do so, your Reputation would drop if Arkanas Gath didn't insta-kill you so fast. Or perhaps it's more specific than that: your Reputation drops if you help a couple of vampires kill a helpless Shadow Thief. But if someone--say, a vampire--asks you to kill a Shadow Thief, then it's alright, and your Reputation won't drop. Maybe the reason why your Reputation drops when you help a couple of vampires kill a helpless Shadow Thief isn't because it's wrong to kill a Shadow Thief, but because it's wrong to consort with evil beings, as Mazzy and Keldorn believe. But your reputation won't drop if you side with Bodhi.

Well, that clears things up.

Speaking of clearing things up, I was hoping that someone might offer an explanation for Bodhi's actions throughout the game. Her gang of vampires doesn't seem to be interested in doing the same things as the Shadow Thieves--stealing, assassinating, blackmailing, smuggling, slavetrading, etc. Even if they want to roam around at night feeding on the blood of innocents, I don't see how that puts them in direct competition with the Shadow Thieves, and it doesn't justify the guild war. Surely the two groups could co-exist since they're not competing with each other.

We know why Bodhi became a vampire: to escape the effects of losing her soul and to become more powerful. I suppose she enjoys hanging out with other vampires just because she's a vampire, and they can help her feed. But if she's really running some kind of "rival guild", then what exactly are they trying to do? I get the feeling that they are simply Irenicus's lackeys.

We know that the Shadow Thieves have some kind of beef with Irenicus (hence the assault on Irenicus's lab). Bodhi feeds on the Shadow Thieves and apparently provides them as test subjects to Irenicus, but we don't know which side started the so-called guild war. Bodhi doesn't strike me as the type who wants to wants to run a Thieves Guild. I suspect she wants to wipe out the Shadow Thieves just because she enjoys hunting, testing her prey, toying with them, and feeding on them.

So what is Bodhi's master plan? Any ideas?

Eriks · Post by **Eriks** » Thu May 01, 2003 9:31 am

That is a good question. Maybe they are just using the other vampires as minions and Bhodi abandons them once she has what she needs? Or maybe Bhodi started the guild war just because she wants you, and so do the shadow thieves? So the whole thing is just a fight over who gets to "help" you?

CrownHead · Post by **CrownHead** » Thu May 01, 2003 11:59 am

I don't think so. If you side with Bhodi her guild is still there when you go back in chapter 6.

And so is she.

On another note the only reason I would side with Aran is because in chapter 6 you get help from his assassins+drizzt. And if you a paladin you can get help from a few of them too.

But I prefer to kill all three, the thieves, drizzt, and the paladins.

garazdawi · Post by **garazdawi** » Thu May 01, 2003 2:03 pm

Spoiler I suppose, but you'll probably know all this anyway...

Bodie's Master Plan: to get her soal back. It's as simple as that. Inorder for Irenicus to perform the ritul and take Imoen's soal from her and put it in Bodie's body he needs soals of many strong people. Here Bodie helps out and gets alot of ST who change side in the guild war. Now Irenicus uses the soals of all the ST and puts Imoen's soal into Bodie's body......

nephtu · Post by **nephtu** » Thu May 01, 2003 2:08 pm

Help, Bah!

To be honest, the "help" is, IMAO, more of a nuisance than a benefit.

To be honest, I would suggest, both from in game commentary and the way Bodhi does things, that she's just messin' around while Jon executes his fiendish plans - nabbing your & Imoen's souls, followed by Revenge & whatnot.

Presumably, the vampirism has made her a little more laid back & self indulgent than her workaholic brother.

Henrik Larsson · Post by **Henrik Larsson** » Thu May 01, 2003 4:30 pm

BTW does enyone know is there any way to keep Mazzy with me if I side with Bodhi versus S.Thieves?

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Thu May 01, 2003 5:26 pm

To keep Mazzy or Keldorn in your party, just dismiss them before you talk to Bodhi and then take them back into your party after you get your first assignment. It's cheesy, but it works.

IMO, you don't need to keep Mazzy or Keldorn in your party in Chapter Three. I've completed Bodhi's quests with a very small party several times. (A Fighter, a Thief, and a Mage should be able to handle it. Go kill Kangaxx with the Improved Mace of Disruption +2 while you're at it.) Let Mazzy and Keldorn spend some time with their families while you do Bodhi's dirty work. Then let them rejoin your party right before you leave for Spellhold. That's what I would do.

Antimatter · Post by **Antimatter** » Thu May 01, 2003 5:54 pm

I believe Bodhi started the guild war. First of all, remember the cut scene in Spellhold? They use thieves to extract your soul. Obviously they were necessary and so Bodhi has been gathering them. Also, the thieves were attacking Irenicus because they knew he was somehow linked to the rival guild. You were a surprise and they didn't know about you until you were out. Irenicus, however, captured you and planned to steal your soul from the beginning, and Bodhi was there to help.

JackOfClubs · Post by **JackOfClubs** » Thu May 01, 2003 7:24 pm

Originally posted by VonDondu
To keep Mazzy or Keldorn in your party, just dismiss them before you talk to Bodhi and then take them back into your party after you get your first assignment. It's cheesy, but it works.

IMO, you don't need to keep Mazzy or Keldorn in your party in Chapter Three. I've completed Bodhi's quests with a very small party several times. (A Fighter, a Thief, and a Mage should be able to handle it. Go kill Kangaxx with the Improved Mace of Disruption +2 while you're at it.) Let Mazzy and Keldorn spend some time with their families while you do Bodhi's dirty work. Then let them rejoin your party right before you leave for Spellhold. That's what I would do.

Yep, this is what I always do. Both Mazzy and Keldorn will request time off to deal with family concerns. While they are busy, it is easy to nip on down to the graveyard and talk to Bodhi. If you plan carefully, they don't even have to be in the party when Valen & Brus make their proposals.

You don't actually have to leave them out of the party for the entire Ch3. I usually just have them guard the entrance. Since they weren't present for the initial interview and all they can see is the perfectly ordinary looking fellow in the foyer, their suspicions are never aroused. They never actually see Bodhi until the interview with Saemon and by then it is too late. Besides, even in that interview, there is nothing particularly suspicious about her. After all, we are not dealing with above average intelligence here.

I agree with garazdawi and Antimatter about Bodhi's motivations. Before Ch 6 she is using the "guild war" as a cover for her true designs of capturing ST victims for Jon's experiments. Afterwards, she retains her guild to help guard the Lanthorn. She never had any true ambitions apart from the war on Suldanesselar. Even the tasks she has you perform are merely for purposes of studying your abilities, which she finally admits.

Coot · Post by **Coot** » Fri May 02, 2003 2:17 am

I always figured the guildwar started because Bodhi converted too many Shadow Thieves. That's why Aran labeled Bodhi's guild as competition, not because she was taking over the thieving business but because she was taking over his people.
Bodhi picked the Thieves to be her main target because a) they had a thing against her brother (was it ever explained why this was so?) and b) neckbiting commoners will bring the authorities down on you, but neckbiting Shadow Thieves most likely won't.

JackOfClubs · Post by **JackOfClubs** » Fri May 02, 2003 1:16 pm

Originally posted by Coot
I always figured the guildwar started because Bodhi converted too many Shadow Thieves. That's why Aran labeled Bodhi's guild as competition, not because she was taking over the thieving business but because she was taking over his people.
Bodhi picked the Thieves to be her main target because a) they had a thing against her brother (was it ever explained why this was so?) and b) neckbiting commoners will bring the authorities down on you, but neckbiting Shadow Thieves most likely won't.

You are quite right in the first paragraph. But I think a) is the result of b).

Eriks · Post by **Eriks** » Fri May 02, 2003 2:02 pm

Bhodi specifcially tells you that she intends to "break the monopoly" created by the shadow thieves.

By the way, I still say siding with the shadow thieves is the good course of actions. The only reason they attack you in Irenicus's layer is because they think you are aligned with him.