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C Elegans
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Post by C Elegans »

Originally posted by VonDondu
If people only see other people naked when they're having sex, then there will be a strong association between sex and nudity. On the other hand, if being naked only means not wearing any clothes, then there isn't necessarily any connection between nudity and sex, unless someone happens to be turned on by another person, but that could happen even if nobody was naked (before they had sex).


Yep, that's what I think too, the associate learning, ie same as Pavlov's dogs type of learning, will be a strong determinant of how strong the connection is in a given society.
Originally posted by Scayde
One thing I noticed while I was living in China, the attitudes toward sexuality are far more open, but their views on nudity are even more repressed than here in the US. I remember I went to an upscale dinner theater......the show featured showgirls in Las Vegas style costumes.....but they were wearing white cortton men's t-shirts and boxers under their coupettes and G-strings....It still did not matter...the men in the audience were drooling in their tea.......it was I think the power of suggestion more than what they were actually seeing. These women were 'supposed' to be sexy..so they were.. :D


Come to think of it, in some regions in Russia I noticed the view of sexuality was very liberal and open, whereas nudity, especially in public, was considerably more repressed than in western Europe. On the other hand, my colleagues from Hungary (we have a whole community here) tell me that nudity is viewed as natural and unproblematic where they come from, it is for instance common that children and adults of both sexes are all nude in baths and saunas, whereas the view of sexuality is not especially liberal.
Originally posted by frogus
Over here a girl sunbathing topless in a park would get arrested :p If the police cars could get through the throngs of drooling repressed males.

Also there is an (perceived) increasing use of nudity in advertising and media, to sell things - which increases the sexual taboo, by dehumanising sex, and making it unnatural.


I know, when I lived in the UK many years ago I was quite amazed how much less liberal the view of the both nakedness and sexuality was in the British society compared to Sweden. Not only concerning public nudity but also in media. Age limits on movies or magazines for nudity is unheard of here, you have age limits on pornography and violence but not general nudity (ie people being naked or having sex in a non-porn movie).

Like Sleep writes, I also find a strange dichotomy in the UK and in many other countries as well.

Nudity and sex seem to be a commercial thing, and it's presented as something for the rich and beautiful only. Media is flooding us with images of beautiful nude bodies that attracts other people and give opportunity for sexual activity, but why is this sought for, and for whom? Like Frogus, I suspect the media images only create a less "natural" view of sex and certainly they create an inhumane and even destructive view of the human body.
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Post by VonDondu »

Originally posted by frogus
Great post (as always) @ VonDondu - you should be on TV :D
Not TV. But maybe on cable. :)

Thanks for the compliment. :)
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Post by Chanak »

@CE: It seems that the lines blur here and there, making it difficult to draw absolutes in this issue. While you make a great point concerning how prostitution is viewed in my own country - which needless to say views nudity in a very bizzare fashion, making no sense to me at all - there are nevertheless other, more nude countries (for lack of a better term :D ) that seem to have taken prostitution farther along the evolutionary scale. As I recall, Germany legalized (restricted to certain areas, if I'm not mistaken) and regulates prostitution as a trade, or profession, to the degree that prostitutes are required to obtain regular health screenings. Perhaps there is more that I am not aware of here, but as I recall, Frankfurt and Stuttgart both had thriving "red light" districts. I am not entirely sure (and I hope someone who knows can verify or debunk this notion), but I think the same holds true in The Netherlands as it does in Germany.

I do believe that people's attitudes towards what they find ideal or attractive in the physical form would change in a society which was more accepting of nudity in general. I don't think this would lessen the attractiveness of those people who were extraordinarily endowed (again, lack of a better term :D ;) ), but people might find their asthectics broadened as they were exposed to a variety of people in the buff. :D
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Post by Scayde »

I think a huge part of the apparent discrepancy in the US between the views on porn, prostitution, sex, and nudity have to be weighed against a background that is absolutely huge. The US as a region encompasses such a large and diverse area. You will find the social moiré's vary widely from region to region. What is acceptable in Las Vegas, where prostitution is legal, would never go over well in Memphis. Lay out topless on Laguna Beach or Muscle Beach, and not raise an eyebrow. Wear a Thong Bikini here in Tyler? You would probably get arrested. When I lived in Houston, we would run to the store in our swimsuits. In Salt Lake City, Utah, That would border on indecent exposure. Back when I lived in New York, Time's Square was one sex shop after another. Where I live now, "Adult Bookstores" are illegal. Here in Texas, if you co-habitate and carry your bills in joint name.....you are considered married. :o .......Unless you are gay :rolleyes: ....Then it is illegal to marry. :(
I think the only thing that transcends all of these differences in the American Culture, is our protectiveness of children from the sex industry. For most of us, in the US, children exposed to, or more especially exploited by adults in a sexual manner is universally a raw nerve.

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Post by C Elegans »

Germany legalized prostitution a couple of year ago in order to give sex workers the same social rights as other workers. This however seems to ignore the fact that 75% of German prostitutes are foreigners, mostly from Eastern Europe. I know there are legal brothels in Germany, but I believe they don't have "Red light" districts like in Amsterdam or Utrecht, I think (but I'm not sure about this) it's legal anywhere.

Sweden went the opposite way, illegalising all selling of sex. Whereas I agree with the government that prostitution is a problem and not just "any job" (it's a long story why, I had this discussion with HLD once I recall and it's based on the studies that show that a majority of sex workers suffer from PTSD and have been victims of sexual abuse before they started selling sex, ie it does not seem to be a choice in the same respect as becoming a physiotherapist is a choice), I think just illegalising the trade has only increased the problem. Prostitution has disappeared from the streets which look good to the politicians, but when it went underground it also went out of control and the prostitutes, especially the foreign ones, now have even less protection than before. When street prostitution was an option, the prostitutes could act without pimps and organised crime behind them, now that is almost impossible and trafficking where prostitutes from other countries (mostly Eastern Europe, like in Germany and the rest of Europe) are kept in flats like prisoners. The situations for prostitutes in Sweden are worse than ever.

However, regarding the US and the view of prostitution versus nudity, maybe Scayde is right, that it's only a question of the US having a much larger cultural variety than the European and Asian countries, which from the outside makes it look more contradictory.

What the US and Europe regardless of how liberal or non-liberal the view of the general sex industry is, is cleary the view of children. In Germany as well as in Sweden, child pornography and child prostitution is illegal and viewed as unacceptable and damaging to the children. Child prostitution as well as child labour in general, often seems to be a trademark of poverty: regions where people have to choose between supporting some or none of their children and regions with many homeless children also have child prostitution and trafficking with children. That is why I was interested in the situation in Japan, where poverty and necessity is not the basis but rather a higher acceptance and perhaps also demand for adolescent and pre-adolescent sex objects. Of course there are native cultures where children are involved in sexual activities much earlier than in Europe/US, and only 100 years ago it was as common here that girls married when they were 13 as it is still in India for instance, but that I think is more a question of where the limit between childhood and adulthood is draws, not a blurry limit in itself. The limits were pushed upwards with the introduction of a longer compulsory education for children, and adressing children's right in general. But in Japan the kids go to school as long as in Europe/US, and people typically don't start families when they are in their early teens. So what is the background to the situation in Japan? Is is connected to beauty ideals? To different conceptualisation of sex? Of adulthood v childhood? Gender roles? I have really no idea.
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Post by Scayde »

@CE, In reading your post......regarding the questions about Japan's kiddy porn industry.....I was reminded of a patient whose interview I sat in on when I was doing my Psych rotation back in nursing school.....I had to rotate through a state mental hospital. I remember on of the groups I sat in on were sex offenders. One of which was a child rapist. One of the other inmate/patients who was also a rapist, but not of children, asked this man 'why' he preyed upon children. There was a clear ring of disgust in his voice. I noted that even here, it was considered reprehensible. But what was even more alarming, was the man's answer. He said..."Because they are clean"

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Post by frogus »

@Sleep, that's from Different Class actually. ;)
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Post by C Elegans »

Originally posted by Scayde
One of which was a child rapist. One of the other inmate/patients who was also a rapist, but not of children, asked this man 'why' he preyed upon children. There was a clear ring of disgust in his voice. I noted that even here, it was considered reprehensible. But what was even more alarming, was the man's answer. He said..."Because they are clean"


Yes :( You hear the most strange and uncomforting, often disgusting, reasons for why child molesters do what they do. I have not worked with any such patients myself, but I have one friend who's a forensic psychologist who has done research on the cognitive functioning of child sex offenders, and one friend who is a child psychiatrist and ass prof in forensics, specialized in pedophilia and sexual abuse of children, so I get to hear a lot... The weird thing IMO is that pedophilia is not at all as unusual as one might think - studies from both the US and Europe show that lots of people, actually many percent (numbers vary from a few % up to as much as 20-30%) of the population have some pedophilic inclinations. If we on the other hand look at the victims, about 15% of people in the US report they have been sexually touched by adults as children, and about 1 in 30 Swedish children have actually been victims of some type of severe sexual molestation such as performing sexual acts, rape, etc.

One could split the phenomena in 3 distinct subgroups: one large group who sometimes have sexual fantasies or have felt sexual attraction or the wish to perform sexual acts with children, one smaller group who are true pedophiles, ie have children as objects of sexual/romantic love instead of adults and finally, one very small subgroup of pedophiles who actually abuse children. According to my friend the forensic psychologist, the child molesters can in turn be divided into two subgroups: those who know they are doing something wrong but cannot control their impulses and those who absolutely cannot understand they are doing something wrong and harm the children, but instead has delusional ideas regarding the nature of their disorder (ie "it's only natural, the child really wants it/is in love with me" etc). The latter group are often characterised by other cognitive disturbances as well.

This is from a good review in JAMA last year:
Pedophilia
Peter J. ***an, PhD; Thomas N. Wise, MD; Chester W. Schmidt, Jr, MD;

Fred S. Berlin, MD, PhD

JAMA. 2002;288:2458-2465.

In a general population study of sexual behaviors in the United States, 12% of men and 17% of women in the study reported being sexually touched by an older person when they were children. Governmental agencies working largely from criminal records and child protective services agencies data have provided further estimation of the magnitude of the problem. The Third National Incidence Study of Child Abuse and Neglect (NIS-3), which addressed only those cases involving parents, parent substitutes, adults, or nonparental teenagers in a caretaking relationship with the child, estimated that the number of sexually abused children rose 125% from 133 600 reported cases in 1986 to 300 200 in 1993.3 The report concluded that children are consistently vulnerable to sexual abuse from the age of 3 years on, girls were sexually abused 3 times more often than boys, children from the lowest-income families were 18 times more likely to be sexually abused, and there were no racial differences in maltreatment incidence.

The NIS-3 reported that natural parents accounted for 29%, other parents for 25%, and others in a caretaking role for 46% of the offenders. In addition, a sexually abused child was most likely to sustain a serious injury or impairment when a birth parent was the perpetrator. Approximately 89% of the children were abused by a male, compared to 12% abused by a female.

Additional incidence data about both custodial and noncustodial sexual abuse have been provided from findings from the Federal Bureau of Investigation's National Incident-Based Reporting System.4 Based on reports from 12 states from 1991 to 1996, 67% of sexual assaults handled by law enforcement agencies involved juvenile victims, of whom 1 of every 7 was younger than 6 years and a third of whom were younger than 12 years. Eighty-three percent of the younger than 12 years cohort was female. Adults were the offenders in 60% of the sexual assaults on children younger than 12 years, and 5 of every 6 assaults occurred in a residence. Nearly all the offenders were male (96%), although female offenders were most common in assaults on victims younger than 6 years. Strangers accounted for less than 5% of the offenders, while except for the younger than 6 years group, acquaintances were 53% and family members were 42% of the offenders.

Such data can provide only some approximation of the prevalence of pedophilia in a population for 2 reasons. First, a pedophilic disorder may be present in a person who does not act on the fantasies and impulses. Second, not all child sexual crime is the product of a pedophilic disorder. This caveat notwithstanding, these data and the general conclusions of similar reports leave little doubt that sexual crimes against children, and by inference pedophilia, are both a major public health problem as well as a criminal justice problem.
Btw, regarding sex crimes against children, in Sweden it has been discussed whether the "sensualised" and sexualised image of children and very young teens in ads and general media affects potential pedophiles to feel more confortable with their disorder since society sort of declares it's acceptable to view kids as sex objects. It is interesting to note that a society with such a distinct non accepting attitude towards adults molesting children sexually at the same time use almost naked 12-year old girls as fashion model in sexy poses, and there are many TV-shows where kids perform on stage rolling their hips and asses like Christina Augilera or the boybands do on MTV. The message to be sexually attractive starts long, long before puberty...and I don't know, but
it's an interesting an important debate whether media in our society actually can affect pedophilic behaviour in a destructive way.
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Post by dragon wench »

Originally posted by C Elegans
So what is the background to the situation in Japan? Is is connected to beauty ideals? To different conceptualisation of sex? Of adulthood v childhood? Gender roles? I have really no idea.


This is only guessing on my part, but I spent a year living in Japan, and I observed some interesting things.... From what I can tell childhood and child-like things are revered there, in some cases continuing well into adulthood. Something that fascinated me is that while nudity is generally accepted quite readily --for example, children and adults often bathe together in communal baths-- pubic hair is a huge taboo. Japanese porn movies are somewhat humorous in that there are actually dots over the pubic regions. Also, in Tokyo, one sees many naked statues, and all possess a child-like quality and are entirely devoid of pubic hair...

After thinking about it I wondered if the taboo on pubic hair is related to the fact that it is very much a signal of adulthood..... Perhaps this is why children, given the love of all things child-like, draw the attention they do... :(
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Post by fable »

Originally posted by dragon wench
After thinking about it I wondered if the taboo on pubic hair is related to the fact that it is very much a signal of adulthood..... Perhaps this is why children, given the love of all things child-like, draw the attention they do... :(


Interesting post. It got me thinking about the rage for photographs of nude children in Victorian England, usually with fairy wings or posed in artfully nature-like settings. Lewis Carroll--the Reverend Dodgson--was one such photographer, and none of the parents apparently ever had a second thought about allowing their children to pose before the friendly, emimently respectable gentleman. A fan of such photos was the composer Anton Bruckner, another man who never married and apparently never had any affairs; by all accounts (and he's been exhaustively researched), a rather naive and unworldly type all his life, without a whiff of scandal to his name.

Which leads me to think that nude children were regarded, at least in a part of Western society at the time, as the epitome of innocence. The nudity didn't matter. It was the absence of sexual maturity that was linked in the Victorian mind with the Judeo-Christian fall from grace, and thus made children more pure. Children were naked; adults were nude.
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Post by Maharlika »

Great post everyone...

...here in Thailand, there is this debate going on regarding young girls dancing and dressing up sexy :rolleyes:

Sorry, if it was a bit off tangent --- though the actual picture shown on the paper would present some scantily-clad youngsters.

Miss Sexy Body pulled out...

I think that it is much better for parents to communicate with their kids (seemingly a no-holds barred discussion) regarding nudity and nakedness --- that way you'd end up with individuals with a more positive and matured outlook towards the appreciation of the human body just for what it is and not what it seemingly represents.
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