There's two sides to the story'

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Thu May 06, 2004 10:07 pm

There are other possibilities, of course. For example, perhaps President Bush knew what was going on all along but claimed that he didn't just to avoid responsibility. He has been saying for months that there are no more "rape rooms and torture chambers" in Iraq, so now he looks like either a fool or a liar, and maybe he thinks it's better to look like a fool. Or perhaps Bush is telling the truth; perhaps his subordinates decided not to keep him informed so that he wouldn't be responsible if the truth came out. The point is, President Bush can never be held responsible for anything.

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Thu May 06, 2004 10:10 pm

Originally posted by VonDondu

In any case, it's time to close this subject now, since Bush has spoken.

I'm sorry, I will not close this subject. I'm going to rant and rant.

I saw a report on TV today..this woman (No name) was saying her daughter couldn't have did this stuff, she was a good girl.

She was fighting for her country..(the reporter forgot

to ask about the big smile on her daughters face as she commited this 'Great job' for her country.)

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Thu May 06, 2004 10:16 pm

One of those members, Jeff Sessions of Alabama, told CNN that Rumsfeld was upbeat and confident. He said Rumsfeld believes there's a "rational" explanation for everything that happened in the prison.

Rumsfeld believes there's a "rational" explanation for everything that happened in the prison..

Link to quote

Charles Mason most likely had a 'rational' explanation as well.

Gwalchmai · Post by **Gwalchmai** » Thu May 06, 2004 10:17 pm

Originally posted by VonDondu
He has been saying for months that there are no more "rape rooms and torture chambers" in Iraq, so now he looks like either a fool or a liar, and maybe he thinks it's better to look like a fool.

He was saying that the same day the story broke! I couldn't believe it!

Well, claiming ignorance was also Regan's tactic during Iran-Contra, as I recall.

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Thu May 06, 2004 10:22 pm

Originally posted by Gwalchmai
He was saying that the same day the story broke! I couldn't believe it!

Well, claiming ignorance was also Regan's tactic during Iran-Contra, as I recall.

No, "I do not recall that" Reagan simply had a "memory problem".

Gwalchmai · Post by **Gwalchmai** » Thu May 06, 2004 10:35 pm

Originally posted by Sojourner
No, "I do not recall that" Reagan simply had a "memory problem".

Ah, yes. A subtle difference to be sure. Thanks.

Moonbiter · Post by **Moonbiter** » Fri May 07, 2004 4:45 am

Poor ole' Ronnie. He WAS probably already suffering from Alzheimer at that point, with the "independent contractors" running the show. At least he sat in an open hearing. You think Bush is gonna do that?

If Rumsfeld walks the plank today (unlikely, but one can hope) I firmly believe that the vacant position should be filled by someone who compliments the president perfectly:

DAN QUAYLE!!!!

Let's get Danny Boy out of retirement, and let him take his rightful place amongst equals! Bush has already revitalised most of the goons his dad tried to get rid of, so why not Dan?

I'm a genious!

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri May 07, 2004 6:43 am

Originally posted by Moonbiter
If Rumsfeld walks the plank today (unlikely, but one can hope)...

Can't happen. There are laws against using that kind of inhumane treatment on rotweilers.

More to the point, Bush won't let it happen because he's already had a disgruntled, highly placed team member who left and Told All. The ramifications from that are still being felt. Given Rumsfeld's personality, I'm sure Bush would feel as though his Secretary of Defense might take revenge and do the book circuit--at precisely the time when such a thing could be disastrous to another term in office.

EDIT: Just heard that a leaked Red Cross report (this, from the international organization's head office, not a few field units) had been sent to Bush earlier this year, detailing a host of "systematic abuses in Iraqi prison camps by American soldiers that in many cases amounted to torture," according to the BBC. I'll be curious to hear if they do more on this one. I wonder if this is the snowball that the Bush administration won't be able to stop? I never would have thought such a subject could cause the whose mess to unravel, but...

Moonbiter · Post by **Moonbiter** » Fri May 07, 2004 9:13 am

I never would have thought such a subject could cause the whose mess to unravel, but...

I did. Not to brag, but having seen first hand how US military interests have conducted themselves in hot spots on 3 continents, I've just waited for something like this to happen. with the current global community's feelings towards US foreign policy reaching a low not seen since 1971, it was just a matter of time before the snowball started rolling. There is just THAT much a nation can possibly wipe under the carpet and call irrelevant before even its own citizens become fed up with governement hyperbole. I don't think the White House Warlords actually understand what they've gotten themselves into. America as a nation has been set up to take the blame for every misdeed commited by coalition forces, no matter what nation they represent. That's what comes from coming on too strong and stealing the limelight. In an open internet questionaire 3 days ago, 3 Norwegian soldiers, 2 combat engineers and a doctor, answered questions posted by the readers of Norway's largest newspaper with an openness that no US or UK soldier would ever be allowed to do. They all sadly concluded with the statement that while "lesser" nation's troops were busy doing what they set out to do: Improving living conditions and preparing Iraq for independence, the US military and other interests made that goal virtually impossible to reach. Triumph has turned to tragedy. Today "we" are the enemy, not liberators, and the citizens of Iraq has been branded the enemies of the entire Islamic world because they supported the invasion.

Gwalchmai · Post by **Gwalchmai** » Fri May 07, 2004 9:35 am

Originally posted by fable
Given Rumsfeld's personality, I'm sure Bush would feel as though his Secretary of Defense might take revenge and do the book circuit--at precisely the time when such a thing could be disastrous to another term in office.

I'm not so sure. Isn't Rummy's personal ideology so focused on what the current administration is doing that he wouldn't do anything to jeopardize the election? Coming out and dissing Bush with the result that someone else wins in November would be antithetical to everything he's tried to do (Patriot Act, his stance against abortion, the Neo-Con foreign agenda, etc.).

Edit 5/9/04: Heh, Heh. I seem to be unable to separate Rummy from Ashcroft!

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Fri May 07, 2004 10:45 am

Well I just saw part of Rumsfelds grill...words and words to me.

Action speak louder!

Moonbiter · Post by **Moonbiter** » Sat May 08, 2004 6:17 am

Interesting. They say that Rumsfeld's retarded statement over a year ago about US soldiers not being subject to the Geneve Convention will probably be seen as the reason for why things have detoriated to such an extent. I remember writing a piece critisising it on another board that I used to visit, and being jumped like never before. Some US people even called me a traitor to the western way of life and said I should be shot.

I got death threats in the e-mail and rabid rednecks going "we're coming for you, you pinko fa****!"

Needless to say, I whistled "Kristalnacht" and goose-stepped silently out of there....

Ahhhh, it's good to be right.....

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat May 08, 2004 8:05 am

Originally posted by Moonbiter
I remember writing a piece critisising it on another board that I used to visit, and being jumped like never before.

I got that too, here.

Was told that there were many reasons for everything that was being done, and was called all sorts of dull, repetitive things. Now, we're in step. We just have to make sure that we don't say anything sensible or observant too early again, or we'll be fed to Buck's giant slugs.

Moonbiter · Post by **Moonbiter** » Sat May 08, 2004 8:20 am

We just have to make sure that we don't say anything sensible or observant too early again, or we'll be fed to Buck's giant slugs.

Oh no! Not the slugs!

You know, it's quite tempting to stick my head into that old place. Bump some threads and grind their faces in it. Do the whole nyah-nyah-nyah! thing. But then they'll just fly over here and bomb me back to the stone age, like the commie-lovin', bleedin' heart piece of eurotrash that I am.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat May 08, 2004 8:37 am

Originally posted by Moonbiter
You know, it's quite tempting to stick my head into that old place. Bump some threads and grind their faces in it. Do the whole nyah-nyah-nyah! thing. But then they'll just fly over here and bomb me back to the stone age, like the commie-lovin', bleedin' heart piece of eurotrash that I am.

We're a more civilized lot, at least, provided you have enough red meat on hand, and scrub down our cages each day.

But the situation never changes, anywhere: people (meaning all of us) live in an eternal moment of NOW. As a result, it's so easy to fall into the trap politicians would have us believe, that MidEast terrorists were *always* the great evil, whereas Russia has *always* been our friend. It facilitates easy answers and easy targets, and that's what life is all about, right?

We're all taken in, from time to time. Statesmen are dead politicians, Sam Clemens (Mark Twain) once wrote, and continued with "Lord knows, we need more statesmen."

Meanwhile--and back to topic--Rumsfeld has assured Congress and the nation (meaning all of us suckers, whether we voted for Dubya, or not) that there will be a lot of further pictures of torture coming, just as bad if not worse. His justification--that he was researching facts--is patently false, since he had at least two reports on hand corroborating rumors and first hand accounts; both of these have been leaked. But of course, Rumsfeld will not go, because Bush is implicated in everything Rumsfeld has stood for.

You know, I used to call Bush "Shrub," here, until one of our members started complaining that I was attacking all those who felt the president was a good man for the job. I think it's time to return to Shrub. I wonder if Worst President Since Andrew Jackson would work...? Nah. Too catchy.

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Sat May 08, 2004 9:35 am

Originally posted by fable
that there will be a lot of further pictures of torture coming, just as bad if not worse.

Worse and there are two vidoes as well

(four if you count the two porn videos made by a company "I heard in Hungary?" and yes they are being claimed by some as being real...EDIT does Bagdad or something like that)

Moonbiter · Post by **Moonbiter** » Sat May 08, 2004 11:13 am

Oh, this is getting better. Newspapers now report that the newsbeureau AFP has gotten their hands on a file containing strategies and direct orders from both the CIA, Millitary Intelligence and several private "security companies" for the abuse and torture of prisoners. There is also evidence of a competition amongst the soldiers and staff of the prisons on who could stage the most outrageous picture. There is supposed to exist entire CD's of material.

Welcome to the revolution. @fable, I think you can safely revive The Shrub.

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Sat May 08, 2004 12:49 pm

Army Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba's full report

Warning it is 54 pages long

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat May 08, 2004 4:33 pm

Word's come out, now, that Blair received intelligence in February about abuse and torture by British and American soldiers on Iraqi prisoners. According to a spokesperson for the Prime Minister's office, "Action was taken where necessary."

You can bet we haven't heard the last of that.

Moonbiter · Post by **Moonbiter** » Sat May 08, 2004 5:01 pm

Wahey! And the Brits have just been spoiling for a way to get rid of that creep since the invasion began.

I can't wait to see what parliament is gonna make of this one... The little brownnoser has been remarkably silent since this whole thing broke.