Destruction - A wasted skill?

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon May 17, 2004 10:38 pm

Originally posted by Bloodthroe
I'm going to leave that Elvis stuff alone...

LOL! Wise man.

Sorry Prince of Persha you didn't play his role, you played action in that game. You didn't make decisions based on what he would do. That's what role play is. Playing the role of something and game... well you know game doesn't mean just video game.

An RPG is an interactive environment, rich in detail, such as the first pen-and-paper RPGs had, and as all their descendants have had. That environment can be in your head, but it has to be there. That was my point. The interactive environment is the game. You and I aren't. That's why we buy it. To take part in the game.

And I do happen to think that the info I get from Blizzard.com, the creators of World of Warcraft is accurate. Sorry if you seem to think that because I have not played it that I know nothing of it.

LOL! I think you know so much more than the rest of us, that I am in an agony whether to grovel or whimper. But no; I'll just point, instead, to the fact that you're again comparing the words of a public relations specialist with a game that's been out for two years, made by a development team of dozens of people, and won countless awards. Yeah! That works better!

The 10,000 beta testers from all over the world have had to say the same thing about World of Warcraft as I am saying.

Really? They commented upon "1000's of spells," as you said? They claimed they saw them? They used them? That they were balanced, "unlike Morrowind?" If they're not talking about that, I have to think (judging from those sites I've seen) that they're dealing only with the little they've seen in the game so far, and they're revealing no detail at all.

But again, it's vaporware. Let's try to stick with games that exist when we're comparing two products. It makes...well, it makes commonsense.

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon May 17, 2004 10:40 pm

Originally posted by Bloodthroe
here there's the clip I was talking about. So see the game does exist. Anyways... you've never played warcraft3 online and yet you sat there and told me they had no RPG Mods. Atleast I have my info verified.

Um, no, it doesn't. The clip does. The game won't exist, won't be available for review, for consideration in final form, until it appears. Until then, everything about it will paint it in glorious colors the likes of which Michelangelo would envy. And in any case, you can't compare vaporware with an existing game. That's like saying your current 2004 BMW stinks because *I* know that a car being made in a few years will be far better, and because people say so. Maybe it will; maybe it won't. But it's not grounds for logical comparison. Stop comparing apples and oranges.

Bloodthroe · Post by **Bloodthroe** » Mon May 17, 2004 10:42 pm

An RPG is an interactive environment, rich in detail, such as the first pen-and-paper RPGs had, and as all their descendants have had. That environment can be in your head, but it has to be there. That was my point. The interactive environment is the game. You and I aren't. That's why we buy it. To take part in the game.

Where in prince of persia did you interact with the environment? So I don't see it being considered an RPG in any way, rather an adventure game. And if you all of a sudden agree with me about the environment able to be in you head, then why did you argue when I said that role playing was done in nothing but chat rooms and was on warcraft3 online?

Bloodthroe · Post by **Bloodthroe** » Mon May 17, 2004 10:45 pm

World of Warcraft does exist, if only the beta version is out. The final just hasn't been released, it takes a few months after it's made for it to be released. It exists if they are going to release it. The clip was to show you that a beta tester was agreeing with me, since you said I have no idea what the gameplay will be like.

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon May 17, 2004 10:47 pm

Originally posted by Bloodthroe
Where in prince of persia did you interact with the environment?

You don't. That was my point. A person could claim to be roleplaying a prince in the process, but it's the game that makes something an RPG, or not. So when you say,

They are playing a game and are playing roles of someone. Meaning it's a roleplaying game.

I'm suggesting, with respect, that this may define the *person,* but it does not define the type of game they are playing. For a computer game to be an RPG, it has to meet other criteria. Warcraft 3 doesn't offer the kind of in-depth environment that I'm suggesting is important to an RPG.

Bloodthroe · Post by **Bloodthroe** » Mon May 17, 2004 10:49 pm

Originally posted by fable
I'm suggesting, with respect, that this may define the *person,* but it does not define the type of game they are playing. For a computer game to be an RPG, it has to meet other criteria. Warcraft 3 doesn't offer the kind of in-depth environment that I'm suggesting is important to an RPG.

Is why it is an RTS not an RPG.

But really a role playing game is where you play the role of the person and end up making the decisions of that person.

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon May 17, 2004 10:53 pm

Originally posted by Bloodthroe
World of Warcraft does exist. It just hasn't been released, it takes a few months after it's made for it to be released. It exists if they are going to release it. The clip was to show you that a beta tester was agreeing with me, since you said I have no idea what the gameplay will be like.

First off, you give the impression that the game is finished, and "just waiting" a few months for release. That again is wrong: the game has just been opened to public beta testing, and won't be out until the end of the year.

Secondly, I never said you had no idea what gameplay was like in WoW. I have suggested that you have no idea how many spells there are going to be in the final product, or whether they're acutely balanced--the latter being a point you've made against Morrowind. When I call WoW "vaporware," I'm using that term how we use it in computer magazines--to refer to product which hasn't been released. And factually, that's the case. You can't compare a game you've not only never played, but one which nobody has played under standard, gaming conditions--and about which we know very little regarding detail, balance, etc--with one which has been out for two years, and become a bestseller.

Or maybe you can. And if so, you'll be doing it to an audience of one.

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon May 17, 2004 10:55 pm

Originally posted by Bloodthroe
But really a role playing game is where you play the role of the person and end up making the decisions of that person.

I'll be hitting bed, soon. You can keep repeating this all you like after I leave, but it still won't fit the definition of a roleplaying game. It's the definition of a roleplayer, something very different, and saying it often is no more likely to make it right than saying you can walk through a wall often enough is going to keep you from being bloody and bruised if you try it.

Bloodthroe · Post by **Bloodthroe** » Mon May 17, 2004 10:58 pm

Originally posted by fable
First off, you give the impression that the game is finished, and "just waiting" a few months for release. That again is wrong: the game has just been opened to public beta testing, and won't be out until the end of the year.

The beta is a version of World of Warcraft itself, even you must agree to that. So if this version of it exists the game exists if even the final is never made. More compliments I've heard have come from the beta then I've heard about Morrowind.

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon May 17, 2004 11:00 pm

Originally posted by Bloodthroe
The beta is a version of World of Warcraft itself, even you must agree to that. So if this version of it exists the game exists if even the final is never made. More compliments I've heard have come from the beta then I've heard about Morrowind.

LOL! Now, you're reaching so far I'm surprised your arm hasn't come out of its shoulder socket. I'm not even going to bother arguing with either point, above. You and I both know "if something doesn't exist yet, but will, it therefore exists" is inherently illogical. As for the compliments, I'm certain you've polled the world of Morrowind lovers on this. I'll look forward to your publication of the results, soon. Have a good night.

Bloodthroe · Post by **Bloodthroe** » Mon May 17, 2004 11:01 pm

Originally posted by fable
I'll be hitting bed, soon. You can keep repeating this all you like after I leave, but it still won't fit the definition of a roleplaying game. It's the definition of a roleplayer, something very different, and saying it often is no more likely to make it right than saying you can walk through a wall often enough is going to keep you from being bloody and bruised if you try it.

Well if it's a game, doesn't that make the transfer from roleplayer to role playing game? I'm sorry but if it's just kids playing batman in the backyard its a game and they are roleplaying and what I've learned to believe from people saying, thats a role playing game. I don't think RPG was limited to video games and exists outside of that area.

Bloodthroe · Post by **Bloodthroe** » Mon May 17, 2004 11:03 pm

Originally posted by fable
LOL! Now, you're reaching so far I'm surprised your arm hasn't come out of its shoulder socket. I'm not even going to bother arguing with either point, above. You and I both know "if something doesn't exist yet, but will, it therefore exists" is inherently illogical. As for the compliments, I'm certain you've polled the world of Morrowind lovers on this. I'll look forward to your publication of the results, soon. Have a good night.

Ok I never said it doesnt exist. Ok, they have made it. It's just not in stores, get it? it exists just because we havent played it doesnt mean it doesnt exist. I've never played baldurs gate, but it still exists despite what i think.

Also you can't sit there and tell me that the beta version isn't going to be anything like the final. Sure it 'can', but hey you know what, so can a meteor going at the speed of light hit out planet and we not even be able to see it coming. You not being able to prove the difference, means you can't say it will be different. The beta version is part of the game itself and the final is going to the beta with a few upgrades, otherwise if they were to make it different and scrape the whole thing, then they would end up making a new beta, one that is part of the game.

Bloodthroe · Post by **Bloodthroe** » Mon May 17, 2004 11:14 pm

Last thing I put here. I know that Morrowind has won awards. I was just point out at the begging of this that if people wanted to play more good games, that all of Blizzards are game of the year games. I didn't mean to imply that Morrowind wasn't, which is why I never said it. Morrowind is a nice game and all, especially for it being free to play online and cheap to buy in stores, it's one of the best for sure. However a lot of games are better then it, but those games usually are the ones that require a monthly bill.

Oh sorry for taking over your thread DM. *~~heh...~~*

Ares2382 · Post by **Ares2382** » Mon May 17, 2004 11:41 pm

Oh man, I've been reading some of this stuff and it's just so funny and sad at the same time.

OK, so what if WoW, supposedly, going to have 1000s of spells. Assuming that that's even true(which I highly doubt) that still doesn;t beat the number of spells in Morrowind. In fact no number you can come up with can beat Morrowind's number because Morrowind's number is infinity, you can make your own spells in this game remember, and I'm pretty sure there is an infinite number of variation (and if not infinite it's pretty damn high).

Like Fable said, reading Blizzard's website about what this game is going to be like is only getting part of the story, I mean do you honestly think that if there was something bad with the game that Blizzard would advertise it? Of course not, that would be some very stupod PR.

And anyways why are we even comparing the two, they are not in the same genre. MMORPGs are not related to Single Player RPGs, despite the fact that they are both RPGs their goals are completely different.

And now back on topic:
Regarding what you said about using Damage Attribute spells and when it becomes handy.

Well simple. sure you can kill anything that moves in about 3 seconds when you get to reach higher lvls, but what FUN is that? Now getting their STR down to near nothing and watch them struggle to get to you while you are laughing at their inability to do so, now that is FUN. And we are playing games to have fun right? So there you go, that's when that spell becomes usefull or handy as you put it.

Anyways I'm off for the night too, have fun.

Bloodthroe · Post by **Bloodthroe** » Mon May 17, 2004 11:53 pm

Well ares... see though you get to edit spells in morrowind, they are just the same spells you're editing. Where having 1000 different spells would be a lot funner then making 1000 of the same spell. Also who's to say that's not what Blizzard meant that you can edit spells in the game and that's how you get 1000? Also I have said once or twice in this thread that I've gone to many sites, not just Blizzard, sorry to inform you but Blizzard isn't all that shallow as you would hope to think. They point out their faults on their site. Also I didn't start comparing the two, I brought it up as saying that here's a great game to play other then Morrowind. Fable started comparing graphics and what not saying it isn't as good or as big a world. Destruction spells used to sit there and drain a person of their STR is fine, I don't really care, but they don't seem to have a balance is all I was saying and don't point me out several other people said it before me that it's not really useful to have all the health damaging destruction spells do the same thing.

UserUnfriendly · Post by **UserUnfriendly** » Tue May 18, 2004 4:29 am

Originally posted by fable
It's no better than in Morrowind; there are ways to complete the game so quickly that it isn't even funny--as UserUnfriendly, the Cheese King. Both are great games, but both retain issues that can easily be exploited.

one cheese king reporting for duty...

wow does exist, if its in beta...however it has not been released yet, so for fairness sake, lets compare the two games, morrowind and worlds of warcraft after warcraft has gone gold, and hits the shelf.

wow may become another pool of radience...a release that was so buggy it was almost unplayable during its first year or so...and only after many many patch versions was it barely playable...or it may be like master of orion 3, which when released bore little or no resemblence to the publicity campaign that ran for years before its long awaited release...and gave many many people, including myself, major bummer feelings...

it could also be delayed...

vaporware is hyped up pre release publicity...and many times in the gaming industry, the developer may change things majorly at the last minute, delay things, or just plain botch it...we've seen it happen, and while we don't like it, it does happen. so comparing wow to morrowind is just plain silly.

UserUnfriendly · Post by **UserUnfriendly** » Tue May 18, 2004 4:36 am

back on topic...

having fooled around with many many destruction spells, i've exploited 3 of them...and produced unstoppable spell monsters...

spells to damage strength, speed and magicka are impossible to beat...

damage over time ranged versions can with a few castings make any monster utterly at your mercy...and they don't have to even be too powerful, or you can always boost your destruction skill to make them cheaper...

a ascended sleeper with 0 strength can't move at all, so you can pepper it with arrows and test out new spells on it... best of all, if you damage their strength, and you're already playing a breton with atronach sign, you can just stand there while the sleeper throws spells at you, recharging you...

destruction is my favorite school, its so much fun....

lifeishell91 · Post by **lifeishell91** » Tue May 18, 2004 10:19 am

I love throw fireball's at enemies, it's just witch like. I really enjoy just a ranged fire damage spell. It's makes the game seems for fun.

Sorry that I am not making this very clear but I just really enjoy hurling fireballs at poeple, moving or not.

Luis Antonio · Post by **Luis Antonio** » Tue May 18, 2004 10:48 am

well,

I'm about to buy morrowind, so looking at this I reach some conclusions:

Diablo is NOT an RPG nor an Adventure game. Period.

Destruction is not so useless as it seems. Period. Why? Cheesemaster UU has aproved it. Wanna know why to trust him? Try his cheeseguide for SoA and enjoy the slaughter. (I've been translating it to portuguese, and wow, you can do awesome things, trust me).

WofWarcraft is not a release yet, so I hold my opinion to those who believe only after release we may tell. Btw, have you guys ever seen Daikatana? Yuck! and it was supposed to be one of the best fps games around.

Btw, Morrowind looks cool to me... cool enough... I'll buy it!

lifeishell91 · Post by **lifeishell91** » Tue May 18, 2004 11:15 am

@Luis Antonio

What's WofWarcraft?