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Nightfire
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Post by Nightfire »

Originally posted by fable:
Sarevok isn't exactly going to fit well into a good/neutral party--in fact, you'll find that somebody you don't expect from your past, who's reasonably good, takes an extreme exception to Sarevok if you add the latter to your party in ToB. And I mean extreme.
Hmm. Jaheira? Though I don't think her objections would come as a surprise to anyone. Grr, you're mean, teasing us like that. :P
Originally posted by fable:
At least Sarevok doesn't kill Jan. Not that he doesn't have provcation; Jan continually refers to him as "Binky."
LOL! Maybe I should gather a party of characters for the sole purpose of picking on and teasing Big Brother. He wouldn't be allowed to hurt anyone, of course ...

I need a bigger party! Five NPCs are simply not enough.
Originally posted by Kayless:
Regardless of my PC's noblity of spirit (I'm going to take my good charater through ToB first) Sarevok is coming along for the ride. He can bitch and moan all he likes. ;)
Ha! Let's all torment Sarevok! It's not as if he doesn't deserve it.

@fable, do you know if he, like other characters, can run off on you if your reputation gets too high? I hope he doesn't.
"Beware of the blindness of those who would follow, and the damnable lure of those who would lead."
- Tamoko

"Mmm? What's this? You gots hammer? Bhaal once drop hammer on big godly toe. Jump around and swear for days, he did. Kicked poor me all the way to Baator. Very bad week, that."
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Drakron Du´Dark
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Post by Drakron Du´Dark »

No, BioWare says that in ToB no character will leave the party, no matter how high/low reputation you have.
But I dont know if the "dont get along" combinations will be remove...
- Waterdeep city constrution.

- Shadowdale low level adventure module.

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Craig
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Post by Craig »

i spose you don't wanna see the amazing stats of my legit pc(this is befor i minused plused his stats)o well
18/00
19
17
8
18
9
that should be right
I'm Devious

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Nightfire
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Post by Nightfire »

@Kayless ...
Sarevok's main problem is that he's had no healthy relationships or support system in his life. Unlike the PC, Sarevok doesn't really have any friends or family to help him work through his Bhaal issues without smashing something. (...)
Wow, that's quite an analysis! I don't really have anything to add to what you and Vehemence have written, except one comment: great! :)
The dreams of the PC in BG1 were nightmares.
I love those visions and cannot get enough of them. :)

IMO, they are more than just dreams. At the very least, they'd be very vivid, involving all senses, and some (like the Chapter 2&3 ones in BG1) almost seem to be out-of-body experiences.

How many dreams are there in BG2, BTW? I had three pre-Spellhold ones, the dream in which you fight your essence during Irenicus' ritual, the Slayer dream, and one visitation by Ellesime, but there are two other ones in the dialog.tlk file that look like they're supposed to take place after those five. It seems they were left out, though the sound files for one of them are in the game. <sigh> The second one would have been really neat.

Here's a question for everyone: Do you think that the Irenicus in the BG2 dreams is actually Bhaal, or at least that part of you which is his essence? The first dream left me with the impression that Imoen was indeed Imoen ... the distressed siblings were unconsciously reaching out for each other ("Irenicus" says that "You brought us here".) ... but in the second and third, and the ritual dream, she embodies your soul, while in the Slayer dream, she was quite obviously your essence. But I don't think Irenicus was Irenicus. Then again, in BG1 Bhaal spoke to you as a disembodied voice, so I'm not sure why he'd change that ...


@Kayless & Vehemence RE: Sarevok's dreams ...

I'm pretty certain he had similar experiences, since dreams seem to be Bhaal's primary method of influencing his offsprings' minds (or trying to, at least). In fact, Sarevok actually mentions one such dream in his journal, and it was about the person you both guessed at: his mother. He wrote that she was pleading with him for help while the assassin was creeping up on her, but that he did not interfere because it was "just a dream". This reminded me a bit of the evil version of the first BG1 dream, in which the PC "gets used to" the sight of Sarevok slaughtering Gorion. Both seem to be a case of "weeding out traits Bhaal finds distasteful", as Kayless mentioned. Pretty scary stuff, IMO.
Originally posted by Kayless:
I think Sarevok's dreams, as torturous as they might have been, only served to strengthen him.
Same with the PC's dreams in BG1 -- each allowed her to access her heritage a little more, regardless of what Bhaal thought about her actions.


@Vehemence ...
I couldn't agree more here. On first glance, I would say that Isolation could be a factor here, but I quickly dismissed this due to the fact that Isolation does not breed hatred.
It most certainly can. :) Just think of the victims of bullying, mobbing and other forms of vicious ostracism. Sarevok's situation does qualify as isolation of a kind. So don't be too quick to dismiss your own ideas. ;)
One could argue that due to his bhaal soul his future is predetermined and would always have an evil streak throughout.
The evil streak is part and parcel of being a Bhaalchild, no matter how good and pure you try to be. But ... this brings up a question about destiny.

"For some rare beings, the coin lands edge on - and these luckless few can forge their own fates, for they have more freedom over their destinies than the powers themselves." The PC is one such being ... but SoA and apparently ToB too are awash in references to her "destiny". So does the thing with the coin mean that while Bhaal had special planes for the PC (to answer aVENGER2k's question: I think that prophecy you mentioned does refer to her), this rare condition will allow her to avoid or twist the fate that her Father has in store for her?

I wonder if there'll be any references to the coin in ToB.
"Beware of the blindness of those who would follow, and the damnable lure of those who would lead."
- Tamoko

"Mmm? What's this? You gots hammer? Bhaal once drop hammer on big godly toe. Jump around and swear for days, he did. Kicked poor me all the way to Baator. Very bad week, that."
- Cespenar the imp
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aVENGER2k
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Post by aVENGER2k »

Hmm,just thought about some more strange things.Now I know that Bhaal was a Human Assassin before he became the Lord of Murder right?And than comes this other guy Cyric who was ALSO a human and kills *the ohh-so-mighty* Lord of Murder?Ok,now I don't quite understand three things here...

1) Aren't Gods supposed to be immortal?If so,how could anyone kill a god then?

2) Ok,now the opposite...how can humans become gods except by visiting the Valley of the Gods?And I know the story about Bhaal,Bane and Myrkul,and how they became gods,but what about Cyric?Did Bhaal's powers transfer to him or what?

3) That sword that Cyric used to kill Bhaal,was it anything special?I just can't picture a God falling to some Short sword of Backstabbing or something :confused:

Wait,this gives me another idea...what if Cyric's the final boss of ToB...like you kill him and reclaim your heritage?

Oh,also,check out this thread for some info on [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=004489"]Sarevok + Sword of Chaos ->[/url]

[ 05-25-2001: Message edited by: aVENGER2k ]
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Kayless
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Post by Kayless »

I think we’ve all done a pretty great job of covering what makes Sarevok tick. So I’d like to know how you all feel about Irenicus.

Sarevok was the product of a bad environment, like a child born in the inner-city slums or to Mafioso parents. He made his own choice in the end but everything in his life was pushing him in that direction. Irenicus on the other hand was raised in the pristine elven culture of Suldanesselar where he never needed to work or fear for his well-being. I can sympathize with Sarevok’s plight but have no pity for Irenicus.

Joneleth was raised in a loving atmosphere (elves are renowned for being a compassionate people, especially to their own kind) and was greatly admired for his exceptional talent as a mage, not to mention the fact that he was the lover of Ellesime, Queen of Suldanesselar itself. With all this going for him it’s almost incomprehensible as to why he would throw it all away for a futile grasp at godhood at the expense of his own people. Bodhi, as we all know, is Irenicus’ sister and supposedly the one responsible for corrupting him. So we must examine her as well in an attempt to unravel the mystery of Irenicus’ fall from grace.

We know that Bodhi revels in her predatory nature as a vampire and is more intrinsically cruel then her brother (illustrated by the way she insists on hunting down her prey in Spellhold). She is also more irreverent and less obsessed than Irenicus is. Given her personality, Bodhi likely grew bored with her complacent elven existence back in Suldanesselar and began to look for other ways to amuse herself. Joneleth and Bodhi strike me as being the elven equivalent of decadent aristocrats. Bodhi might have given Joneleth’s some bad ideas in an attempt to get him to do something interesting or perhaps merely for her own amusement. Ellesime was descended from the elven god Rillifane and had a unique tie to the Tree of Life. So it’s also possible that Joneleth grew jealous of her and decided to claim some of that power for himself. Ellesime tells us that this became an obsession for him and he started to forget about everything other then his godhood. Joneleth’s vanity forced him to reach beyond his grasp. When he was finally stopped Ellesime sentenced him and his sister to a fate worse than death; being made human and exiled from their home.

The fact that elves consider being made human worse than being killed tells you something about how they view other species. As benevolent as they are, there is still an elitist racism inherent to their views. For Irenicus (as he now started calling himself) going from near godhood to a mere mortal must have been devastating. He became utterly obsessed with reclaiming his immortality and slipped farther and farther into self-denial. Not only had Irenicus become something which had had always thought of as inferior, but his lifespan had been dramatically reduced as well.

Irenicus felt that humans were incapable of feeling emotions as deeply or remembering things as vividly as elves. In his journal he speaks of his emotions and memories fading over time. He tries to recapture his past by kidnapping some Nymphs in an attempt to rekindle his sensations and keeps a replica of Ellesime’s room perfectly preserved in his laboratory. He even endeavors to clone a replica of her, but to no avail. The more he tries to tighten his grip on the past the easier it slips through his fingers. Rather then using his mortal years to try to atone for his crimes he squanders them in an attempt to continue with his schemes of power.

Irenicus suffers from an incredible sense of self-denial. Nothing’s ever really his fault. His actions are always justified. Someone else must be blamed in order for him to justify his actions to himself. His ego prevents him from admitting he was wrong all those years ago and his ego forces him to continue with the same doomed plan all over again.

Irenicus is also a profound hypocrite. In his second journal he writes: “Now comes the time of retribution. I will not allow such a crime to go unpunished. The audacity of Ellesime, claiming my punishment was just, and the hypocrisy of 'my' people, accepting such an act while decrying mine. I will not let this rest. I will take what I intended, and those that would stand before me will fall as they should. He vaguely acknowledges the fact that by removing your soul he is committing the very same act that he loathed his people for, yet doesn’t even stop to reconsider the greater ramifications of his actions. His selfishness and arrogance are his real enemies, not the PC or his former people.
Nature’s first green is gold,
Her hardest hue to hold.
Her early leaf’s a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay.
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sqeezaf
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Post by sqeezaf »

The sword Cyric used to kill Bhaal was Mask (god of thieves, crime) polymorphed into the sword.
Think it was called Cyrishinad or something like that.
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Kayless
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Post by Kayless »

Originally posted by Halaster:
<STRONG>The sword Cyric used to kill Bhaal was Mask (god of thieves, crime) polymorphed into the sword.
Think it was called Cyrishinad or something like that.</STRONG>
The Cyrinishad was a book Cyric wrote that converted whoever read it (even a god like Mask) into a fanatical worshiper of Cyric. It wasn't a sword.
Nature’s first green is gold,
Her hardest hue to hold.
Her early leaf’s a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay.
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Zartuul
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Post by Zartuul »

I'm going to guess that Sarevok will have 5* in two handed sword, 2* in two hand weapon usage. The other * have no clue because he'll have more then 7. I expect him to be around 20th level if the PCs are to find him relatively early.

Also the other thing that makes Sarevok so powerful that nobody has mentioned yet is that he's practically immune to magic. I don't ever remember landing any spells on him. So basically your going to have an animal of a fighter that's immune to magic, very powerful combo indeed. I advise everyone to take the sword of chaos and either Soul Reaver or the Silver Sword into ToB.
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Xyx
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Post by Xyx »

These offspring will be aligned good and evil, but chaos will flow through them all.
That seems to imply that the protagonist should have been Chaotic. I don't expect "chaos to flow through you" without it affecting your alignment. But Imoen is Neutral Good...

The game doesn't leave much room for Evil protagonists, but how would Sarevok react to that? Suppose your protagonist chose some good stat bonuses over crappy XP rewards and saving a party member in the Tears of Bhaal quest?
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Post by Metatron »

The mention of Sarevok being tutored by a Priest of Bhaal (a fact which I had forgotten) made me curious. Cyric hasn't been a God long enough to assert his control over all of the followers of the dead gods. Just like there are still followers of Waukeen, people around the realms refuse to give up worshipping Bane and Bhaal. I'm not sure anybody ever worshipped Myrkul or if anyone worships Kelemvor now. The God of the Dead is like a cosmic custodian. He just sweeps up the leftover souls once the other Gods get what they want. Anyway, I'm getting off topic.

So Sarevok was being trained by a priest of Bhaal. Presumably, said priest was the source of Sarevok's ambition to ascend to godhood in as bloody a way possible. He may have even acted in the capacity of a surrogate father figure since Rieltar was a bastard and Bhaaal was dead, and Sarevok striking him down but not finishing him off seems to lend credence to this.
In another conversation, the observation was made that in the end of SoA, the robed men discussing 'the child of Bhaal' were sitting around a table emblazoned with Bhaal's Sigil. Are these more adherents to the faith of the dead god? It seems likely. This begs the question: is there some kind of conspiracy instigated by the still-faithful legions of Bhaal to ensure that only the Bhaalspawn that they deem is appropriate to the task will ascend to godhood? And if so, what resources does this conspiracy have at its command? It seems safe to say that the protagonist does not meet their requirements for a god, or perhaps they fear he will ruin their plans to raise Bhaal, since he's proven to be a loose cannon in the past.
Thoughts?
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Kayless
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Post by Kayless »

I personally believe that the folks in BG2's end movie are Priests of Bhaal devoted to bringing about their god’s return. But until ToB's release no one can say for certain. Oh, and in case anyone is unaware, Bane is back and has regained his entire original portfolio. YEAH BABY! Image Image

[url="http://boards.wizards.com/realms/Forum2/HTML/000149.html"]See Here[/url]
[url="http://boards.wizards.com/realms/Forum2/HTML/000129.html"]Here[/url]
[url="http://boards.wizards.com/realms/Forum2/HTML/000173.html"]And Here[/url]

[ 06-08-2001: Message edited by: Kayless ]
Nature’s first green is gold,
Her hardest hue to hold.
Her early leaf’s a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay.
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Metatron
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Post by Metatron »

Originally posted by Kayless:
<STRONG>Oh, and in case anyone is unaware, Bane is back and has regained his entire original portfolio. YEAH BABY! Image Image

[url="http://boards.wizards.com/realms/Forum2/HTML/000149.html"]See Here[/url]
[url="http://boards.wizards.com/realms/Forum2/HTML/000129.html"]Here[/url]
[url="http://boards.wizards.com/realms/Forum2/HTML/000173.html"]And Here[/url]
</STRONG>
Well, assuming the ToB developers knew that Bane was back and included that fact in the story, that should certainly make any potential interactions with Cyric more interesting. Murder will be the only realm left to him.
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Kayless
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Post by Kayless »

Originally posted by Metatron:
<STRONG>Well, assuming the ToB developers knew that Bane was back and included that fact in the story, that should certainly make any potential interactions with Cyric more interesting. Murder will be the only realm left to him.</STRONG>
At his highest point Cyric was the god of strife, tyranny, hatred, death, the dead, murder, lies, deception, and illusion. Today he is just god of murder, lies, deception, illusion, and intrigue. So even if he did lose the murder portfolio he’d still be a powerful deity (though a much weaker one then he is now). In the last few years Cyric’s been sliding down the ladder of divinity so fast it’s a wonder he doesn’t have splinters up his ass. :p :D
Nature’s first green is gold,
Her hardest hue to hold.
Her early leaf’s a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay.
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Kayless
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Post by Kayless »

Auld Lang Syne, baby

Ah, memories. I’m so proud of the psychological discussion in this thread. Image Pity it died down, but I suppose it was inevitable. Still this is an excellent topic that deserves to be bumped every once in a while (and maybe even have conversation started again). Image I love being vindicated (on topics like Sarevok’s potential, had his life been a little different, and his ability to redeem). ToB pretty much confirmed most of this debate (albeit with a few surprises, like Sarevok knowing Gorion as a kidand being adopted by Rieltar). Still, some great conversation all around. Image
Nature’s first green is gold,
Her hardest hue to hold.
Her early leaf’s a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay.
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Mr Flibble
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Post by Mr Flibble »

Impressive. You guys were right on the money with a lot of that stuff, and it certainly makes good reading. I think Ascension answered a few other questions raised in this thread too, especially towards Sarevok being redeemed.

I take it this all occured during the "I've finished SOA and now waiting for TOB" period in history?
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Kayless
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Post by Kayless »

Yeah. We’d just found out about Sarevok being the new NPC and were killing time until ToB's release. Our brains were pretty tuned into the game, and it's great to see how accurate our perceptions were about most stuff. Image I tried to start some debate on Irenicus and his issues towards the end, but by that time the topic had already died down. This goes down as one of my all-time favorite topics, since everyone was just vibing so well.
Nature’s first green is gold,
Her hardest hue to hold.
Her early leaf’s a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay.
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