nalia is better than edwin

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Wed Jun 20, 2001 2:53 pm

She has an INT of 17, and Edwin has 18. She can't learn the highest level of mage spells in ToB.

I thought so too, at first. Turned out she (and Jan, Aerie and Imoen) can learn (and subsequently cast) them if she uses a Potion of Insight or some other Intelligence enhancer before scribing the scrolls.

Cygoth · Post by **Cygoth** » Wed Jun 20, 2001 5:31 pm

Additionally, there are stat increasing items in ToB (Int included, so 18 int means nothing.
Edwin would be ok for an evil party that doesn't mind sleeping after every fight. My parties usually sleep once in an entire dungeon. Spells are used only at appropriate times for strategic effect, and the cheesy 'save or die' spells are such a crock that I don't lose them.
For me, Edwin is the worst mage in the game because he's weak, has the lowest hp and ac, such low dex that he couldn't hit a barn with ranged weapons, and most importantly, is the least *versatile*. So he can cast a few extra spells - big deal. I guess it depends on playstyle, but mages in my games usually get less kills than priests - they're utility characters. Magic missiles to interupt, fireballs to soften them up, Slow, haste, confusion, thrust etc. mages mostly mess with the enemy's heads while the fighters and the priest's minions do the killing.

wolven86 · Post by **wolven86** » Wed Jun 20, 2001 7:14 pm

ok i dont know how you guys play but i normally use 1 mage one cleric one thief and as many fighters as possible ie Me (fighter) keldorn, Jaheira, Viconia, Yoshimo, and Edwin

personally with this many fighters Edwin never gets near an enemy so the lower ac and more hitpoints that nalia gets never really gave me much help the amount of spells that he gets are bloody useful (since i dont rest much)

plus the fact that she is imho the worst thief in the game i mena lvl 4 my fighter can open locks better than she can. Yoshimo is the best thief in the game and you can keep him all the way through except for chapter 4 and 5 (drop him out before you leave athkatla and pick him up after) especially the traps (especially usefull when killing the shadow dragon and firkraag at a low level)

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Jun 20, 2001 8:24 pm

Xyx writes:
I thought so too, at first. Turned out she (and Jan, Aerie and Imoen) can learn (and subsequently cast) them if she uses a Potion of Insight or some other Intelligence enhancer before scribing the scrolls.

Can learn 'em with such a potion, yes. But Nalia can't cast 'em unless she's taken another potion beforehand. That's quite a few potions to have around, when either Edwin, or your own mage (if you choose to make one) doesn't require it.

koz-ivan · Post by **koz-ivan** » Wed Jun 20, 2001 10:58 pm

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Xyx writes:
I thought so too, at first. Turned out she (and Jan, Aerie and Imoen) can learn (and subsequently cast) them if she uses a Potion of Insight or some other Intelligence enhancer before scribing the scrolls.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Can learn 'em with such a potion, yes. But Nalia can't cast 'em unless she's taken another potion beforehand. That's quite a few potions to have around, when either Edwin, or your own mage (if you choose to make one) doesn't require it.

nalia can cast any 9th level spells as long as she has it in her spell book, even with her int 17.

just checked it out myself. (as a side note i always drink a potion before scribing for any mage, pc & edwin included)

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Thu Jun 21, 2001 1:08 am

More pros and cons

she is imho the worst thief in the game

I don't see how that qualifies her as a bad Mage... IMO that's just a nice bonus.

Edwin is the worst mage in the game because he's weak, has the lowest hp and ac, such low dex that he couldn't hit a barn with ranged weapons, and most importantly, is the least *versatile*. So he can cast a few extra spells - big deal.

I would say it is a big deal. Consider what two bonus spells of every level would get you at the SoA cap:
[*]2 Magic Missiles (makes up for the loss of a bow)
[*]2 Mirror Images (makes up for the lack of Hit Points)
[*]2 of Flame Arrow, Haste, Slow, Melf's Minute Meteors or whatever.
[*]2 Stoneskins (makes up for bad AC)
[*]2 Breaches
[*]2 of Death Spell, Spell Immunity, Chain Lightning, Improved Haste or Summon Nishruu.
[*]2 Project Images (cheesiest spell in the whole game: doubles hit already impressive arsenal of spells)
[*]2 Horrid Wiltings or Simulacrums.

And tell me this guy isn't versatile

Callimar · Post by **Callimar** » Thu Jun 21, 2001 2:12 am

Don't know about you lot, but I never use defensive spells like Mirror Image or Stoneskin. Just isn't my style. I prefer to get me fighters in front so my mage never gets hit anyway.

Astafas · Post by **Astafas** » Thu Jun 21, 2001 2:37 am

Originally posted by Callimar:
<STRONG>Don't know about you lot, but I never use defensive spells like Mirror Image or Stoneskin. Just isn't my style. I prefer to get me fighters in front so my mage never gets hit anyway.</STRONG>

Well yeah, that's the normal procedure, I guess. Still, some ennemies target your spellcasters first and don't give a damned about your fighters. Also, sometimes you're surrounded by ennemies and where do you then put your wall of fighters? Stoneskin and mirror images assure that those spells of yours truly go off.

Callimar · Post by **Callimar** » Thu Jun 21, 2001 2:42 am

When surrounded by enemies... we run. And meet them on our own terms.

It works, y'know (and a few fireballs and stuff to delay them helps).
Actually, I do use the aforementioned spell on groups of enemies to softend them up, or I just was it on a group of orcs or goblins or something I can't be bothered fighting. Holy Smite is a big fave of mine

. Cone of cold's good when large groups of enemies are trying to go through a small space. A blast of this makes 'em think twice about it

.

Edwin · Post by **Edwin** » Thu Jun 21, 2001 7:13 am

IMO there's no discussion about Edwin....he's simply incredible due to his int 18 and the 2 extra slots....
About other mages, i'd say (in order):
- Imoen (not bad thieves abilities for SoA)
- Jan (he's a mage\thief but he's a specialist so he gains one extra spell/lvl and his thief abiliteis grow up during the game....)
- Nalia (good with short bow and not so bad as mage....but terribly annoying and not good for my playing style)

That's it: if i want a pure mage i take Edwin or Imoen; if i want a thief i take jan....so no place for Nalia....

koz-ivan · Post by **koz-ivan** » Thu Jun 21, 2001 10:06 am

bit of an oddity ->
what's kinda intresting is of all the perfect parties listed in the strat. section.
out of 8:

4 have no npc's (all user created multi player)
the other 4: only one lists edwin w/ an only if evil tagline.

-----

few edwin questions -

does his amulet give more ninth level spells?

how loyal is he to a good aligned party? will he take off if rep gets to 18+ ?

i'v always seen his allignment as a tremendous drawback, if he was a neutral or good char, i'd prob use him all the time. despite his lack of flexability.

violence · Post by **violence** » Thu Jun 21, 2001 10:12 am

yes, Edwin's amulet does give an extra 2 9th level spells.

Also, I think every evil character will leave if the reputation gets past 18. Haven't tried it out myself though Heh Heh

Bill · Post by **Bill** » Thu Jun 21, 2001 10:44 am

Originally posted by violence:

Also, I think every evil character will leave if the reputation gets past 18. Haven't tried it out myself though Heh Heh[/QB]

*Spoiler*

Viconia can stay even with 20 rep ("good" PC).This happens because she gave an oath in the Underdark exit to the elven general to serve the PC till the end.

[ 06-21-2001: Message edited by: Bill ]

koz-ivan · Post by **koz-ivan** » Thu Jun 21, 2001 11:22 am

edwin's amulet gives two extra spells?
or does he get 1 extra for being a spec. mage + 1 from the amulet?

violence · Post by **violence** » Thu Jun 21, 2001 11:30 am

IIRC the amulet give two extra spells in addition to the additional spell he gets for specialization. I may be wrong but that's what I think

This argument is heating up way more than I thought it would. I can't believe the number of people willing to post that any other mage is better than Edwin. Each to his own of course but I was not aware that anyone disagreed with me. Having played with all of the mages, I just can't understand anyone not believing Edwin is the best.

And what is all of this foolishness about weapons and armor. How many people use their mage in melee? How many people don't use the spell stone skin? The only measure of a mage is his magic.

toeman · Post by **toeman** » Thu Jun 21, 2001 11:54 am

imoen a better spellcaster than nalia because she gets extra spells like a specalist mage.
edwin is the best npc in my opinion

koz-ivan · Post by **koz-ivan** » Thu Jun 21, 2001 12:27 pm

And what is all of this foolishness about weapons and armor. How many people use their mage in melee? How many people don't use the spell stone skin? The only measure of a mage is his magic.

as i said earlier, there are a ton of weapons w/ "side effects" can can be really helpful, nalia is able to use many more of these than edwin.

also as i stated earlier it come down to style of play,

a) if you play good alignments + high rep, edwin will leave the party, and your back to square one if you want another mage.

b) if you really like casting spells & resting to memorize them all the time edwin might be your guy, i'd rather have a mage w/ a good a/c that having to worry about casting blur all the time.

c) edwin must cast spells in combat to be effective, nalia gives other alternatives, namely short bows & thrown daggers (high dex gives her a decent thaco)

d) sometimes melee finds you, plenty of times when going through a narrow oppening a char that i wouldn't want anywhere near combat gets trapped.

e) basic flexibility, nalia can do & use more stuff than edwin.

violence · Post by **violence** » Thu Jun 21, 2001 12:52 pm

koz-ivan, we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. You will never convince me that Nalia is better than Edwin because of her ability to shoot arrows and use melee tactics. And I will probably never convince you that Edwin is better than all other mages because he has higher intellegence and can memorize/cast more spells.

I think it all boils down to playing style. If you use a mage to cast lots of spells and not to shoot arrows or fight melee then Edwin is better. However, I admit that if you want a thief mage, or a fighter mage or a plain mage that fights hand to hand and shoots arrows like a ranger, then Edwin just doesn't fit the bill

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Thu Jun 21, 2001 1:09 pm

This argument is heating up way more than I thought it would.

I think it's a great thread, actually. Some very good points mentioned either way.

Being as objective as I can here.

The only measure of a mage is his magic.

I'm sure everyone agrees that a level 9/17 Fighter dualled Mage is slightly more effective than a level 17 Mage.

if you really like casting spells & resting to memorize them all the time edwin might be your guy

Actually, Edwin is the guy that can go longest without resting to regain his spells (since he has more). Admittedly, he needs to use more to be as effective.

koz-ivan · Post by **koz-ivan** » Thu Jun 21, 2001 1:12 pm

edwin is a great char, all i was trying to say was nalia is too. every char has some upside to them (except a pre tob cernd) and very rarely is the anwser to a "who's better?" as simple as "nalia sucks! edwin rocks!" it's a fun debate, but circular, both have advantages.

edwin is very good at what he does but as a player i'm too lazy for edwin, i throw a few fireballs, magic missle, breach & pierce magic in combat and my only prep spells are stoneskin, haste, contengincy & sequences / triggers. nalia does this just fine, so i don't need edwin's increased capacity. (+ it's annoying as hell finding a lot of magic items and being able to id them in batches of 3, i'd rather be able to mem a buch of id spells rest and get it over with)

edwin's got 18 or 27 extra spells (2 or 3 of every spell level) which is really cool but it's not my style.

it's been fun but it's time imo to put this topic to rest.

next week we'll fight over saravok vs keldorn, be ready. just kidding (i hope!)