A-wh-wh-wh-what!?

[Noober]

[QUOTE=Aegis]Well, I thought it was rather mean when the Magic 8-Ball said 'You'll be seated next to John Romero at the next E3' [/QUOTE]

Well, at least Doom 3 wasn't wrecked.

[Noober]

[QUOTE=Xandax]
As for the Auroa .... I don't care much about graphics so I don't care the Auroa engine is sub-par in that department. I do however dislike the engine because it seems to have technical problems (memory leak possible, or just shappy programming?) and causes the game to lag on my computer.
[/QUOTE]

It's because of the number of scripts that it has to run at once, as well as rather inefficient scripting in some cases...

[Xandax]

[QUOTE=Noober]Please, play some co-op NWN, its far more fun then any other CRPG (please don't flame me ). And some of the characters had great depth. Ok, only one. But the number of threads based around this single character.....
<snip>
[/QUOTE]

I take it you don't know much about my NwN playing; otherwise you'd not make such a statement.
I have and do play NwN in multiplayer as well, on Argyle Online - a full PvP roleplaying server.
That however dosen't change my oppinion which you quoted. NwN dissapointed many and especially with the very mediocre SP OC. It also disapointed many of us that followed much of the development process and many of us that still play the game.
It was only due to the community that NwN had the staying power it currently displays - and in my oppinion - it is not up to the community to make the game great, it is the developers.

[QUOTE=Noober]<snip>
The reason I really liked NWN, is because of the far greater character depth granted by 3 ed rules. It made pvp servers possible.
<snip>
[/QUOTE]
It makes roleplaying possible much more, in my oppinion, then PvP.
PvP is still about the "munchkin template" that will be the "be-all-end-all" of combat. It is quite visible if you view templates being made that they are about the powergaming, and powergaming has a tendencty to end up with very similar templates.
For instance - a pure PvP player would not select the roleplaying skills. How often do you see a PvP player advice on taking the roleplaying skills or feats - would they still take Tumble if you removed the AC bonus (which shouldn't be there in the first place as far as I know).
PvP play leads to similar templates.

[QUOTE=Noober]<snip>
And don't forget that some people brought NWN just so that they could create their own adventures (some of my friends did that). And others for the DM client that no other game provided (except Vampire).
<snip>
[/QUOTE]
Yes - because that was original what the game was ment to be able to do.
Mirror PnP D&D roleplaying in a computer setting. However the alteration of so many rules made this a mute point, because the community had to spend a lot of time trying to adjust the game towards the rules.
It wasn't untill later in the development process they announced a SP OC. But the moment they decided to make a SP part, they should also have decided to make it proberly, and they didn't.
I bought NwN to play multiplayer, but it didn't change the fact that I felt (feel) the game was more hyped then it was good.

[QUOTE=Noober]<snip>
Also Kotor is one of my favorite single player RPG's, even over BG. I've played BG through once, compared to about 6 for Kotor. And Kotor was VOTED goty by Gamespy users, not chosen by the editor. And the fact that I didn't have to play for 5 hours just to get into the game...
<snip>
[/QUOTE]

KotOR (just to get into that discussion a bit more) was a good action game, but it was (imo) a mediocre RPG game. All about the graphics and sounds and to static a game world.
I also know it was voted game of the year and recived all the praise in the world - but don't forget that Diablo was once voted best RPG also by various things.
I take such things (awards) with a grain of salt as to how good the game actually is.

[QUOTE=Noober]<snip>
I think the reason Bioware took soo long was to create the toolset and DM client. So that probably a reason why they want to keep the Aurora engine, they don't want to waste so much hard work.[/QUOTE]

Well - the time Bioware spend on Aurora shouldn't influence Obsidian to choose Aurora in my oppinion.

Don't get me wrong - I think NwN was a good game. But its potential was so much larger and it took the community to make the game great. The community shouldn't be needed to make the game great, that is the developers.
Otherwise - they could just release a Toolset instead of trying to make a game.

[Aegis]

[QUOTE=Noober]Well, at least Doom 3 wasn't wrecked.[/QUOTE]
It's hard to mess up a legacy with that much hype surrounding the newest release

Personally, I'm going to wait a couple months to pick it up and play, and decide then when people have finally seen pass the hype and anticpation of finally playing Doom 3, and now can appreciate it for whatever it truly is.

As for the Aurora engine, it's Obsidian not wanting to shell out the time or money to fix a flawed engine. Simply put, the Aurora engine is outdated. It was the day the game was released. Graphically and mechanically. The amount of hard coding in the engine for what should be flexible rules is insane. Add to that certain limitations put on the engine, which deny the ability to create certain prestige classes and custom feats. Also, the limitations of even the item maker, and tool set. For a game that said it would be easy for anyone to make their own adventure, they neglected to mention that it's only easy for people who understand scripting. Apparently they're the larger gaming niche. Who would've thought.

Sorry for the tangent, I'll stop now before the NWN fans begin to flame me. I just have a deep rooted hatred for the game, and almost all things NWN (even a lot of the community content is crap, simply put. Aside from a handful of projects. Even Argyle isn't as good as the hardcore fans of that server say it is. The most promising two projects are the CODI and DLA projects, and when do you suppose those will be seen )

[The Z]

[QUOTE=Aegis]It's hard to mess up a legacy with that much hype surrounding the newest release

Personally, I'm going to wait a couple months to pick it up and play, and decide then when people have finally seen pass the hype and anticpation of finally playing Doom 3, and now can appreciate it for whatever it truly is.

[/QUOTE]

Regarding Doom 3, unless you want
this to happen to you, I would suggest leaving it off

To tell the truth I don't have Doom 3 and woun't buy it for awhile because my OS is Windows 98 and my processer is an old Pentium 3.

And man, you seem really bitter about NWN...maybe a dose of Dungeon Siege will make you feel better (about NWN that is ). In all seriousness though, a lot of people on this board were/are disappointed with NwN (I think the overrated games thread has a few complaints). And I don't really think Atari is capable of living up to even that standard.

[Noober]

[QUOTE=Xandax]I take it you don't know much about my NwN playing; otherwise you'd not make such a statement.
I have and do play NwN in multiplayer as well, on Argyle Online - a full PvP roleplaying server.
That however dosen't change my oppinion which you quoted. NwN dissapointed many and especially with the very mediocre SP OC. It also disapointed many of us that followed much of the development process and many of us that still play the game.
It was only due to the community that NwN had the staying power it currently displays - and in my oppinion - it is not up to the community to make the game great, it is the developers.
[/QUOTE]

I should have been more clear, I'm talking about playing the OC on LAN with some of your friends. It's great fun!

The OC dissapointed me (to quite a great extent actually) as well, but my opinion changed after palying with some friends.

The only PW I really played much of was Nordock because there was an Australian server, otherwise I just play LAN or pvp.

[QUOTE=Xandax] It makes roleplaying possible much more, in my oppinion, then PvP.
PvP is still about the "munchkin template" that will be the "be-all-end-all" of combat. It is quite visible if you view templates being made that they are about the powergaming, and powergaming has a tendencty to end up with very similar templates.
For instance - a pure PvP player would not select the roleplaying skills. How often do you see a PvP player advice on taking the roleplaying skills or feats - would they still take Tumble if you removed the AC bonus (which shouldn't be there in the first place as far as I know).
PvP play leads to similar templates. [/QUOTE]

I never roleplay in NWN, because it donesn't come anywhere close to the roleplaying experience availible in true DND.

And in PvP there is no "be-all-end-all" template because of the multiclassing capabilities of 3 ed. Normally Sorc > All but monk. But then Sorc multi's to Pally/Monk, so it pwns monk, but get owned by Sorc/Pally/Blackguard, which inturn is beaten by Pally/CoT. But then people realise the Shadowdancer > Sorc, so they go Assassion/Dancer. Then people take Blackguard/Pally or Palemaster and kill them using smite+true sight items. So there is actually quite a deep and complex 'rock-paper-scissors' circle.

And some people would still take tumble to avoid attacks of opportunity, namely shadowdancers.

[QUOTE=Xandax]Yes - because that was original what the game was ment to be able to do.
Mirror PnP D&D roleplaying in a computer setting. However the alteration of so many rules made this a mute point, because the community had to spend a lot of time trying to adjust the game towards the rules.
It wasn't untill later in the development process they announced a SP OC. But the moment they decided to make a SP part, they should also have decided to make it proberly, and they didn't.
I bought NwN to play multiplayer, but it didn't change the fact that I felt (feel) the game was more hyped then it was good. [/QUOTE]

No, what I mean is that people like to create their own worlds, regardless of the rules in the game. And I didn't hear all that much hype about the OC, just the DM client and toolset.

[QUOTE=Xandax] KotOR (just to get into that discussion a bit more) was a good action game, but it was (imo) a mediocre RPG game. All about the graphics and sounds and to static a game world.
I also know it was voted game of the year and recived all the praise in the world - but don't forget that Diablo was once voted best RPG also by various things.
I take such things (awards) with a grain of salt as to how good the game actually is. [/QUOTE]

I liked Kotor, you didn't that much. I accept that.

I don't take AWARDS that seriously, but if so many PEOPLE like the game, it most likely has some sort of decent core. And generally if you read the reasons behind the score, you get a good indication. Diablo may not have been much of a role-playing experience, but it was rather addictive. And what year was Diablo 1 & 2 released anyway?

[QUOTE=Aegis] As for the Aurora engine, it's Obsidian not wanting to shell out the time or money to fix a flawed engine. Simply put, the Aurora engine is outdated. It was the day the game was released. Graphically and mechanically. The amount of hard coding in the engine for what should be flexible rules is insane. Add to that certain limitations put on the engine, which deny the ability to create certain prestige classes and custom feats. Also, the limitations of even the item maker, and tool set. For a game that said it would be easy for anyone to make their own adventure, they neglected to mention that it's only easy for people who understand scripting. Apparently they're the larger gaming niche. Who would've thought. [/QUOTE]

Deny the ability to create custom classes and feats? Go to NWVault, and take a look at the PRC pack. Then have a look at the Psionics spellcating system created (Yes, a new SPELL-CASTING system!), and the proper epic spellcasting system.

[Aegis]

[QUOTE=Noober]Deny the ability to create custom classes and feats? Go to NWVault, and take a look at the PRC pack. Then have a look at the Psionics spellcating system created (Yes, a new SPELL-CASTING system!), and the proper epic spellcasting system.[/QUOTE]If you're going to rebut, address what I say. I didn't say it doesn't allow for custom feats and PrC's. I said it makes certain ones impossible. Show me a proper Archmage PrC, for instance. It can't be done, as has been confirmed by Georg Zoeller, on many occassions. Thats an example of the poor hard coding. Another one is this: Talk to Xyx, the lead dev of the Argyle project. He could list problem after problem with the hard coding, and has done so to many people.

I'm not saying don't play it and enjoy it, I'm just saying why I am not a fan of the game, nor engine. These are proven things, as well. I haven't touched on the personal reasons for wishing to condemn the game back to the pitts of hell from whence it came.

As for Diablo, I believe it was first released mid-90's, and was hailed as a great RPG. It was also the primary reason for people begining to believe that an RPG was mindless hack and slash.

Many high scores, for any game, are often a result of hype (Black and White scored high, but was not all it was proclaimed as in reviews). NWN was also a high scorer, and no people are begining to renig on the scores, saying it deserved somethign somewhat lower. Reading reviews is subjective, and should never be taken seriously. A guideline, perhaps, but not the truest word, and I'm saying this as someone who reviews games.

Also, for Dungeon Siege, at least Microsoft didn't pretend it was a strong story RPG. They advertised a dungeon crawl, and they delivered a good hack and slash dungeon crawl. Bioware advertised a great role playing experiance, and delivered Dungeon Siege-lite with a worse graphics engine, flawed rule set (which should not have happened, considering the rules are all on paper), and somethign they cut and paste together to call a story.

Yes, I"m bitter at NWN...

[Xandax]

[QUOTE=Noober]I<snip>
I liked Kotor, you didn't that much. I accept that.

I don't take AWARDS that seriously, but if so many PEOPLE like the game, it most likely has some sort of decent core. And generally if you read the reasons behind the score, you get a good indication. Diablo may not have been much of a role-playing experience, but it was rather addictive. And what year was Diablo 1 & 2 released anyway?
<snip>
[/QUOTE]

And a great number of people liked Diablo and hailed it as a great RPG. Just because many people support/back stuff - doesn’t mean that the game isn't trivial, bland, static.
I don't accept the "majority vote" in matters that have to do with such things as this - and I'll voice my concerns instead of accepting them.
I find SW:KotOR to be a mediocre roleplaying game because of a static world, bland NPCs, way to short and way to easy, few PC customisation (2x3 class choices, few skills and feats) .... in my opinion it only further stereotyping the consoles status as an RPG platform.
I know many people hail it as good - and that might mean it has "some sort of decent core". But I wanted to play the best roleplaying game of (many) years - and not a decent core
I believe it is quite all right to set the bar higher with the releases of games, and expect something.

It was the same with NwN, and compared to SW:KotOR I like NwN, and have played NwN much more. NwN was much more of a CRPG compared to KotOR. But this doesn’t mean I'll just accept what was done and not voice my disagreement against what I felt was bad/terrible in that game. And the OC was definitely one of those (to mention one thing).

[Noober]

[QUOTE=Aegis]If you're going to rebut, address what I say. I didn't say it doesn't allow for custom feats and PrC's. I said it makes certain ones impossible. Show me a proper Archmage PrC, for instance. It can't be done, as has been confirmed by Georg Zoeller, on many occassions. Thats an example of the poor hard coding. Another one is this: Talk to Xyx, the lead dev of the Argyle project. He could list problem after problem with the hard coding, and has done so to many people.

I'm not saying don't play it and enjoy it, I'm just saying why I am not a fan of the game, nor engine. These are proven things, as well. I haven't touched on the personal reasons for wishing to condemn the game back to the pitts of hell from whence it came.
[/QUOTE]

My most sincere apologies. My actions were made without proper forethought as to the consequences which might befall. I humbly implore you to accept my apology as an expression of regret as to my actions which resulted from my lack of cognitive content. I sincerely hope that you will be able to forgive me for my past transgressions.

Also, which game will allow you to completely change everything without releasing the source code? I can't really think of any.

[QUOTE=Aegis] Many high scores, for any game, are often a result of hype (Black and White scored high, but was not all it was proclaimed as in reviews). NWN was also a high scorer, and no people are begining to renig on the scores, saying it deserved somethign somewhat lower. Reading reviews is subjective, and should never be taken seriously. A guideline, perhaps, but not the truest word, and I'm saying this as someone who reviews games. [/QUOTE]

Yes, of course you can't trust everything you read. My current tactic is to find a reviewer who shares similar likes when it comes to games, and only really listen to what that reviewer says.

[QUOTE=Xandax]And a great number of people liked Diablo and hailed it as a great RPG. Just because many people support/back stuff - doesn’t mean that the game isn't trivial, bland, static.
I don't accept the "majority vote" in matters that have to do with such things as this - and I'll voice my concerns instead of accepting them. [/QUOTE]

I listen and examine what they say, not just blindly buy whichever game is voted GOTY. A "majority vote" would cause interest from me, but I wouldn't just go and buy the game.

[QUOTE=Xandax]I find SW:KotOR to be a mediocre roleplaying game because of a static world, bland NPCs, way to short and way to easy, few PC customisation (2x3 class choices, few skills and feats) .... in my opinion it only further stereotyping the consoles status as an RPG platform. [/QUOTE]

The sad reality is that any game which includes stats and skills, is now branded a role-playing game. Take a look at Diablo and its clones, and UT2K4's RPG mod. Roleplaying is counting for less everywhere as Blizzard corrupts our fair society with annoyingly addicitive games.

[Xandax]

[QUOTE=Noober]<snip>
Also, which game will allow you to completely change everything without releasing the source code? I can't really think of any.
<snip>
[/QUOTE]

A game with a decent thought out and implemented toolset where rules aren't hardcoded into the game engine, could come pretty close - which was what NwN toolset was supposed to be. Guess we can hope for NwN2's toolset

If you apply the current trend (buzzword) of programming - Object orientated Programming - then it is quite possible.

[Robnark]

[QUOTE=Xandax]A game with a decent thought out and implemented toolset where rules aren't hardcoded into the game engine, could come pretty close - which was what NwN toolset was supposed to be. Guess we can hope for NwN2's toolset

If you apply the current trend (buzzword) of programming - Object orientated Programming - then it is quite possible.[/QUOTE]
well, I would probably not be alone in sayin that there is little chance I'll rush out to buy a brand new game because its toolset might be better than the last one. I will need persuading. or very cheap second-hand copies.

oh yes. well, 'latest' is stretching it a bit, but they haven't had any better ideas for a while. but it is a very good point. the rules can very easily be made as a seperate object that is applied to the module. that would make modifying, updating, or even totally rewriting the rules much, much simpler. maybe a bit more complex than a rule editing wizard in the toolset, but it would be far less painful and restrictive than the current situation.

[Nightmare]

NWN was bad for the simple reason that it was Diablo 2, in a different engine with a DnD ruleset. The toolset eased some pain, but I'm with Xandax in saying that it wasn't a good off-the-shelf product.

About "BG3". Yeah, right. I don't believe it, as tons of people have always said it won't happen, that the Child of Bhaal story is done (as it should be). Throne of Bhaal went to too high levels to be fun anymore, anyways. My guess is it was just something to attract attention (and I certainly hope it was). I would dislike for the great Baldur's Gate franchise to be ruined.

I'm planning on checking out KotOR, simply because I'm a Star Wars nerd. And its pretty cheap.

[Monolith]

[QUOTE=Nightmare]NWN was bad for the simple reason that it was Diablo 2, in a different engine with a DnD ruleset. [/QUOTE]

It surly was more. Just compare the amount of dialogs and the high number of choices ( character-development, plot-related, sub-quest-related, alignment).