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I'll be moving to Long Island on the 4th of July



Say, Mag what part of New York do you live again?

[QUOTE=C Elegans]Myopic.[/QUOTE]Thankyou

With all due respect, nationalism is not usually defined as a belief that your culture or nation is superior to others - this is xenophobia, jingoism or national chauvinism. Nationalism is some kind of love for your nation, pride in it or belief that 'the nation' deserves to be a political sovereignty.

Likewise, July 4th is in no way a celebration of USA's superiority AFAIK.

I can't find any surveys right away. Personal experience indicates to me that nationalism (pride in one's country, such as is celebrated on July 4th) is rife all over the UK, more so in rural areas probably, but greatly in urban seats of Victoria-era national pride (Liverpool, Manchester, Bristol etc) as well.

I'm not American and I don't have any plans for 4th July since it's normal work day, but in July, 5th Black Sabbath is going to play in Helsinki. Just can't wait for it. And I just had to say that.

[QUOTE=Jaypee]I'm not American and I don't have any plans for 4th July since it's normal work day, but in July, 5th Black Sabbath is going to play in Helsinki. Just can't wait for it. And I just had to say that.[/QUOTE]

That's better than some stupid national holiday. I envy you.

July 4th is observed in memory of the signing of the Declaration of Independence (penned largely by Thomas Jefferson) by the original 13 American colonies of Britain. The document is dated July 4th, 1776. Here's a link to a transcription of the document. To me, calling July 4th "Independence Day" is a misnomer, since independence was not truly achieved until much later on. A war was fought first, and for most of it things didn't look very good for the Continental Army. With the aid of France, however (at the time Britian's chief foe), the tables were slowly turned around in favor of the upstart Americans.

It means different things to different people. It is often used as a tool to whip up nationialistic fervor - but for most, it is simply a holiday that is traditionally celebrated with fireworks displays, backyard get-togethers, parades, etc.

And Iron Maiden the next day (yeah, that's right). I don't allready have the tickect for this one. But in a 90% certainty my friend is going skip that concert, so I buy his ticket. That's one heavy metal week....

I don't celebrate 4 of july beacuse of our independance, I celebrate it to have fun with friends.

I'm getting hammered on foreign soil. It's an excuse to see my friends that patriotic people except.

[QUOTE=Darth Zenemij]I don't celebrate 4 of july beacuse of our independance, I celebrate it to have fun with friends.[/QUOTE]

Which is precisely my point - for the majority of Americans, that's what July 4th is. It's not some proclamation to the world of American superiority - though certain individuals with too much power and money would try to use it as a propaganda tool to keep the public more manageable and agreeable to their activities abroad. That's the whole "patriotism" track that in reality is a dead, beaten horse.

[QUOTE=Chanak]Which is precisely my point - for the majority of Americans, that's what July 4th is. It's not some proclamation to the world of American superiority - though certain individuals with too much power and money would try to use it as a propaganda tool to keep the public more manageable and agreeable to their activities abroad. That's the whole "patriotism" track that in reality is a dead, beaten horse.[/QUOTE]


I think that some people have the wrong Idea, they think that America has some kind of supreamicy (sp?) I agree. It isn't some kind os proclamation to america, I mean sure, we do have a lot of patriotic people, and if I posted this else where they would be very upset, but 4 if july isn't some kind of uber american day, many celebrate it for fun and what not, I mean its almost the only day where you can set off fireworks.

frogus23 wrote:With all due respect, nationalism is not usually defined as a belief that your culture or nation is superior to others - this is xenophobia, jingoism or national chauvinism. Nationalism is some kind of love for your nation, pride in it or belief that 'the nation' deserves to be a political sovereignty.

Unfortunately the term nationalism covers both what you describe and what I describe. Wikipedia lists jingoism as a synonym to nationalism. Although not every individual who call themselves nationalism need to believe their own culture is superior, the pride in one's own culture more often than not go together with beliefs about superiority. This has been shown in surveys. Xenophobia is not necessarily related to neither love/pride in your nation nor belief in sovereignity of your nation, but there is a substantial overlap.

I can't find any surveys right away. Personal experience indicates to me that nationalism (pride in one's country, such as is celebrated on July 4th) is rife all over the UK, more so in rural areas probably, but greatly in urban seats of Victoria-era national pride (Liverpool, Manchester, Bristol etc) as well.

There are plenty of surveys concering both nationalism, patriotism and xenophobia. Not surprisingly, there is a high correlation between these, although not everybody who is nationalistic is necessarily a cultural racist.

International surveys shows that Americans are far more nationalistic than any European country. One extensive survey was done recently by the university of Chicago:
http://www-news.uchicago.edu/releases/9 ... tism.shtml

Another recent poll showed that

70% of Americans are "very proud" of being American (compare this to that no Western European country have more than half of the population being proud over their nationality, and less than 1/5 in Northwestern Europe such as Netherlands and Scandinavia.)

It's also interesting to note that according to other polls,

79% of Americans think it is good that American custums and ideas are spread around the world

62% of Americans think the world would be a better place if other countries became more like the US

49% of Americans think the world would be a better place if people from other countries were more like Americans

Let's remember this and look for European figures to compare.

You can find a lot of material here:
http://www.worldvaluessurvey.org/statistics/index.html

and also note that religious values, traditional family values and nationalism/patriotism are highly correlated. You can even do your own statistical analysis on the data.

[QUOTE=C Elegans]62% of Americans think the world would be a better place if other countries became more like the US[/QUOTE]

I think the world would be a better place if the rest of you yokels would simply submit to my firm, but benevolent, rule. Is that the same thing?

I think the world would be a better place if humans were extinct personally. Hey, that's just me though.

I'll be working that night and fervently hoping for two things..that no one starts a major fire and that no one comes in with the usual firecracker related injuries.

[QUOTE=HighLordDave]I think the world would be a better place if the rest of you yokels would simply submit to my firm, but benevolent, rule. Is that the same thing?[/QUOTE]

It depends...is your "benevolent rule" associated with strong religious belief and traditional family values? Not to mention Freedom(TM).

[quote="Magrus]I think the world would be a better place if humans were extinct personally. Hey"]

I agree, but now that we're here we must try to do our best!

[QUOTE=Darth Zenemij]I don't celebrate 4 of july beacuse of our independance, I celebrate it to have fun with friends.[/QUOTE]

Aren't that what most celebrations are about nowerdays ?

[QUOTE=frogus]nationalism (pride in one's country, such as is celebrated on July 4th[/QUOTE]

With nationalism; fine line between the fascist nationalism - with supermacy theories etc - and national pride Most of us do indeed love ourselves for being a bunch of "tea drinking wankers" p), wearing socks with sandals etc - but to say "nationalism" is rife isn't appropriate, the majority of urban areas are now very multicultural which is accepted by most.

Actual nationalism only managed to survive in isolated pockets around the country (although it is apparently growing, but in the more media friendly BNP manner ). I live very close to one of these pockets - it has been the "fascist/nationalist stronghold" for the blackshirts for the whole county.

Getting OT here just wanted to clear up that little fine point . While in a way the 4th of July celebrates nationalism: victory of one nation and culture over another, I'd hope it would be more celebrated from the national pride angle

Now I had time to look more into this. It's of course difficult to find international polls where exactly the same formulation have been used, but I think

79% of Americans think it is good that American custums and ideas are spread around the world

62% of Americans think the world would be a better place if other countries became more like the US

49% of Americans think the world would be a better place if people from other countries were more like Americans

can be compared to data from the ESS (European social survey) where only a little more than 10% of the population is 12 European countries in Northen, Central and Easter Europe agrees to the statement "It's better if everyone share the same custums".

[QUOTE=C Elegans]It depends...is your "benevolent rule" associated with strong religious belief and traditional family values? Not to mention Freedom(TM). [/QUOTE]

No; I believe that the state religion should be either scientific aethism or the worship of the singular deity who assumes the avatar of Buck Satan. In any event, I would appoint you to be Minister of Science and Grand Priestess of the State Church.

I also believe that "traditional family values" are a tool used by certain political factions to ingratiate themselves to the masses's need for nostalgia rather than an actual time or actual values.

The subjects of my benevolency would be free to do pretty much as they wished provided that they are not hurting/endangering anyone else.

@CE

I would like to know how "American Customs" was defined. If it meant representative democracy or rule of law, I'm not surprised those numbers are high. If it meant hot dogs and peanut butter and cable TV, then those figures are a little striking.

@Cuchulain: The data I have quoted comes from a study by The University of Chicago (the one I linked to above) and from Pew Global Attitudes Survey and from the Rasmussen Report Survey. In the Pew Global Attitudes Survey there were two different questions, one that used the wording "American custums" and one that specifically used the wording "American ideas about democracy". Interestingly, less Americans (70%) were positive towards the democracy item than to the "American custums" item (79%).