Beginnings
[QUOTE=Athena]I was merely pointing out that African Americans were the first established rappers, thank you. Which leads me back to my question; does a bear crap in the woods?
rap falls into that category I will not discuss this any further.[/QUOTE]
Actually, the first rap song I ever heard was sung in the late seventies (I believe) by a woman named Blondie... It was called Rapture... Quite good, actually...
Of course, rap gained popularity as "underground" african american music, and was a way for many people to express themselves. It's come a long way since then, making it into the mainstream... And becoming a very influential part of popular culture.
Is it a positive force?
I'd say no... Just watch the music videos to see how sexist most of it is.
Is it music?
Of course.
Even Carl Orff had some racey lyrics, (albiet in latin) but no one acts as if Carmina Burana isn't great classical music...
Should rap be considered music? Yes, or no and why??
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fable
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[QUOTE=stramoski]Actually, the first rap song I ever heard was sung in the late seventies (I believe) by a woman named Blondie... It was called Rapture... Quite good, actually...[/quote]
You mean the group Blondie. The singer was Deborah Harrie. It was a regularly made mistake during their existence. Everybody thought the "blondie" in question was Harrie, though I've no idea whether that was her true hair color or not.
Even Carl Orff had some racey lyrics, (albiet in latin) but no one acts as if Carmina Burana isn't great classical music...
Orff didn't, but one of his several hundred works did: Carmina Burana. And they weren't really racy: they were just a bit fun-loving and anti-establishment, written by scribal monks in the columns of manuscripts they transcribed. The late Middle Ages was a time when monks often wandered freely without control by the Vatican or local bishops, and when many of these guys settled down, they mused in writing about their experiences on the outside. (Interestingly enough, many of the verses Orff set about 60 years ago were originally set to music by the monks themselves for their own entertainment, 900 years ago. But few people listen to that.) It's arguable whether it's great classical music, but it sure is fun, isn't it?
You mean the group Blondie. The singer was Deborah Harrie. It was a regularly made mistake during their existence. Everybody thought the "blondie" in question was Harrie, though I've no idea whether that was her true hair color or not.
Even Carl Orff had some racey lyrics, (albiet in latin) but no one acts as if Carmina Burana isn't great classical music...
Orff didn't, but one of his several hundred works did: Carmina Burana. And they weren't really racy: they were just a bit fun-loving and anti-establishment, written by scribal monks in the columns of manuscripts they transcribed. The late Middle Ages was a time when monks often wandered freely without control by the Vatican or local bishops, and when many of these guys settled down, they mused in writing about their experiences on the outside. (Interestingly enough, many of the verses Orff set about 60 years ago were originally set to music by the monks themselves for their own entertainment, 900 years ago. But few people listen to that.) It's arguable whether it's great classical music, but it sure is fun, isn't it?
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fable
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[QUOTE=Xandax]Orff did have lyrics in some of his works? O'Fotuna springs to mind as the most well-known .... or am I way off base here?[/QUOTE]
I meant, Orff didn't write the lyrics he used, but applied texts by various writers. I should have been clearer.
I meant, Orff didn't write the lyrics he used, but applied texts by various writers. I should have been clearer.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
[QUOTE=stramoski]no one acts as if Carmina Burana isn't great classical music...[/QUOTE]
Please exclude me, I certainly do not view Carmina Burana as a great piece of music and also, I do not define it as classical music. The theatrical and bombastic style may fool you, but structurally it is highly doubtful whether it should be classified as classical music.
Personally I would rate Grandmaster Flash as far more valuable music than Orff, for several reasons, one important reason being genre definition and another important reason is the use of music to point out a social issues.
Please exclude me, I certainly do not view Carmina Burana as a great piece of music and also, I do not define it as classical music. The theatrical and bombastic style may fool you, but structurally it is highly doubtful whether it should be classified as classical music.
Personally I would rate Grandmaster Flash as far more valuable music than Orff, for several reasons, one important reason being genre definition and another important reason is the use of music to point out a social issues.
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[QUOTE=fable]You mean the group Blondie. The singer was Deborah Harrie. It was a regularly made mistake during their existence. Everybody thought the "blondie" in question was Harrie, though I've no idea whether that was her true hair color or not. [/QUOTE]Debbie is not a natural blonde. Here is some concrete evidence Oooh Debbie, she is the only 51 year old to still fire my loins
Rap is music, although not all of it is good music. I would say that so-called 'Noise' stretches the definition of music nowadays (for example fails to exhibit rhythm required by CEs definition), and plenty of 'conceptual' music has done so in the past. Even Suicide are difficult to call music at times, but modern rap is apparently one of the genres most confined to musical conventions.
Important Question Part III:
Who cares whether or not the noises one is listening to meet any definitions of 'music' if they sound good?
Oooh Debbie, she is the only 51 year old to still fire my loins Rap is music, although not all of it is good music. I would say that so-called 'Noise' stretches the definition of music nowadays (for example fails to exhibit rhythm required by CEs definition), and plenty of 'conceptual' music has done so in the past. Even Suicide are difficult to call music at times, but modern rap is apparently one of the genres most confined to musical conventions.
Important Question Part III:
Who cares whether or not the noises one is listening to meet any definitions of 'music' if they sound good?
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RandomThug
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The city breathes music. The cars growling in unison on the freeway, the birds and the cellphones. Music is everywhere... GOOD music and BAD music are opinons.... but rap is most definitly music, just as rock is and just as trance is.
I enjoy all spectrums of music, focused mostly on early 70's through the late 80's punk.
There is a collection of rap out there that is not gangsta, or hip hop in the sense of your mtv collection.
Aceylone is the first one that comes to mind, political in nature and a breeze to listen too.
More on this later.
I enjoy all spectrums of music, focused mostly on early 70's through the late 80's punk.
There is a collection of rap out there that is not gangsta, or hip hop in the sense of your mtv collection.
Aceylone is the first one that comes to mind, political in nature and a breeze to listen too.
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Dart_Xerpoth
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[QUOTE=Magrus]I actually like Eminem once I took the time to listen to what he had to say. He's brutally honest, unafraid to say what he has to say and does so without hesitation. I can respect him for that. [/QUOTE]
I could not agree more, I hate the "gangsta" rap thing, but I like Eminem, for once he doesn't go around telling people how cool he is, as opposed to many other famous rap artists, (snoop dogg etc..) Also, he doestn't go around bragging about how many gold "bling blings" he has, nor about the money he have.
I could not agree more, I hate the "gangsta" rap thing, but I like Eminem, for once he doesn't go around telling people how cool he is, as opposed to many other famous rap artists, (snoop dogg etc..) Also, he doestn't go around bragging about how many gold "bling blings" he has, nor about the money he have.
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fable
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[QUOTE=Dart_Xerpoth]no i dont think rap should be considered music, it is mostly talking, and stuipid dancing. people who think there really tuff (forgotten how to spell it) like rap. they think there really cool if they rap[/QUOTE]
But aren't you confusing two things, here?
Is rap music?
Is rap good music?
I personally don't like rap at all. But it fulfills all the criteria for music. It's one thing to argue something isn't good according to your own subjective opinions; it's another to argue that objectively, it doesn't meet the criteria to fit into a given class of items. If you don't think rap is music, please explain why.
But aren't you confusing two things, here?
Is rap music?
Is rap good music?
I personally don't like rap at all. But it fulfills all the criteria for music. It's one thing to argue something isn't good according to your own subjective opinions; it's another to argue that objectively, it doesn't meet the criteria to fit into a given class of items. If you don't think rap is music, please explain why.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
[QUOTE=Dart_Xerpoth]no i dont think rap should be considered music, it is mostly talking, and stuipid dancing. people who think there really tuff (forgotten how to spell it) like rap. they think there really cool if they rap[/QUOTE]
Stop and think: the same be said about rabid fans of everything else, such as:
Country music, cowboy hats, the two-step, line dancing, and so on (some think they're "really tough" too, and as a rule vocalists sing with a twangy accent, even if they're from Boston or LA originally - but it's a genre-related phenomenon);
The "alternative" music scene with its attendant fashions, mode of speech, attitudes (it's "cool" to be psychologically messed up, dress carelessly, etc);
Mosh pits, where fans of extremely loud music slam into each other chaotically, and think they're "tough" too....
All of that is to demonstrate a point. Everything you posted can be said about anything, and someone can say that about what *you* like and characterize *you* the same way.
Stop and think: the same be said about rabid fans of everything else, such as:
Country music, cowboy hats, the two-step, line dancing, and so on (some think they're "really tough" too, and as a rule vocalists sing with a twangy accent, even if they're from Boston or LA originally - but it's a genre-related phenomenon);
The "alternative" music scene with its attendant fashions, mode of speech, attitudes (it's "cool" to be psychologically messed up, dress carelessly, etc);
Mosh pits, where fans of extremely loud music slam into each other chaotically, and think they're "tough" too....
All of that is to demonstrate a point. Everything you posted can be said about anything, and someone can say that about what *you* like and characterize *you* the same way.
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fable
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[QUOTE=Chanak]All of that is to demonstrate a point. Everything you posted can be said about anything, and someone can say that about what *you* like and characterize *you* the same way.[/QUOTE]
Indeed. At various times and in various places, I've read or heard the following:
"Bebop isn't jazz. It's Chinese music." (Louis Armstrong, the great early jazz trumpeter, actually said that to a newspaper reporter in the early 1950s.)
"Rock isn't music. It's the devil's attempt to take over the world by using codes to spread rebellion among our teenage youth."
"Classical music isn't music, because I can't understand it."
"Jazz isn't music. It's trash, coming from the most despicable elements of society."
None of this is true. All of it pertains to how we feel about a particular kind of music, for a variety or reasons.
Indeed. At various times and in various places, I've read or heard the following:
"Bebop isn't jazz. It's Chinese music." (Louis Armstrong, the great early jazz trumpeter, actually said that to a newspaper reporter in the early 1950s.)
"Rock isn't music. It's the devil's attempt to take over the world by using codes to spread rebellion among our teenage youth."
"Classical music isn't music, because I can't understand it."
"Jazz isn't music. It's trash, coming from the most despicable elements of society."
None of this is true. All of it pertains to how we feel about a particular kind of music, for a variety or reasons.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
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dragon wench
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Personally, I can't stand rap. However, I voted, "yes."
Who am I to impose my personal tastes in a definition of what constitutes music, or any other genre of art?
I dislike performance art as well, but it is still art.
Doesn't all of this lead to the question though.. How do we define music, visual art. etc? Who should dictate that criteria? Should anyone dictate it at all?
Who am I to impose my personal tastes in a definition of what constitutes music, or any other genre of art?
I dislike performance art as well, but it is still art.
Doesn't all of this lead to the question though.. How do we define music, visual art. etc? Who should dictate that criteria? Should anyone dictate it at all?
Spoiler
testingtest12
Spoiler
testingtest12
What is music? Music is a word. What are words? Words are an invention of man. As part of mankind it is my same right to create whatever words I want. Therefore I can say rap is music if I want. It's also my right to say the definition of music does not include rap at all. Since anyone in the world can simply create the definitions of the words according to their own beliefs, I fear an answer to this question will never be found and people are going to continue asking such questions that hardly have a point to be asked. It's my belief to not put so much emphasis on the definitions of words.
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fable
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[QUOTE=Caden]What is music? Music is a word. What are words? Words are an invention of man. As part of mankind it is my same right to create whatever words I want. Therefore I can say rap is music if I want. It's also my right to say the definition of music does not include rap at all. Since anyone in the world can simply create the definitions of the words according to their own beliefs,[/quote]
Not if they want to carry on intelligent conversations and be respected for their opinions, they won't.
Not if they want to carry on intelligent conversations and be respected for their opinions, they won't.
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Maharlika
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I disagree.
[QUOTE=Caden]What is music? Music is a word. What are words? Words are an invention of man. As part of mankind it is my same right to create whatever words I want. Therefore I can say rap is music if I want. It's also my right to say the definition of music does not include rap at all. Since anyone in the world can simply create the definitions of the words according to their own beliefs, I fear an answer to this question will never be found and people are going to continue asking such questions that hardly have a point to be asked. It's my belief to not put so much emphasis on the definitions of words.[/QUOTE]
If you want to be understood by others (note, I said "understood" NOT "agreed on"), then you have to recognize that there are words that everybody can agree upon simply because you have to have a standardized reference, definition or template to base your opinions on.
Judging on your argument, you might as well say that you can arbitrarily label anything with any word you want, whimsical though it may seem. But tell me, do you actually expect others to understand what you are trying to say?
Then again, you might as well say that you don't care if people understood you or not. If so, then one should not gripe about being misunderstood.
Based on my observation, a significant number of people who say that rap isn't music are basically a group of persons who hate and don't appreciate this kind of music and the culture that it represents.
Some of us are not into rap, however it does not mean that we don't consider it as a form of music.
As fable has stated, I don't think the question is whether rap should be considered music. It's more on one's opinion if rap is considered good music.
[QUOTE=Caden]What is music? Music is a word. What are words? Words are an invention of man. As part of mankind it is my same right to create whatever words I want. Therefore I can say rap is music if I want. It's also my right to say the definition of music does not include rap at all. Since anyone in the world can simply create the definitions of the words according to their own beliefs, I fear an answer to this question will never be found and people are going to continue asking such questions that hardly have a point to be asked. It's my belief to not put so much emphasis on the definitions of words.[/QUOTE]
If you want to be understood by others (note, I said "understood" NOT "agreed on"), then you have to recognize that there are words that everybody can agree upon simply because you have to have a standardized reference, definition or template to base your opinions on.
Judging on your argument, you might as well say that you can arbitrarily label anything with any word you want, whimsical though it may seem. But tell me, do you actually expect others to understand what you are trying to say?
Then again, you might as well say that you don't care if people understood you or not. If so, then one should not gripe about being misunderstood.
Based on my observation, a significant number of people who say that rap isn't music are basically a group of persons who hate and don't appreciate this kind of music and the culture that it represents.
Some of us are not into rap, however it does not mean that we don't consider it as a form of music.
As fable has stated, I don't think the question is whether rap should be considered music. It's more on one's opinion if rap is considered good music.
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Ideal Maxima
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Music? of course
it has a blend of interesting instumental (and non-instrumental) rhythm. the words sometimes also add to the rhythmic notation.
why shouldn't it be considered music?
it has a blend of interesting instumental (and non-instrumental) rhythm. the words sometimes also add to the rhythmic notation.
why shouldn't it be considered music?
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