I agree that single cleric is not enough powerful to defeat highlevel mage but if he is in the team with other mage (secret word, lower resistance, simularenum , sequencers, etc.) he is able to destroy every opponent. I usually play with NPCs (If I want soloing I simply install Diablo2 on HDD. Hovewer, I think that soloing is boring). So, the opinion about the best class is related with the next question - how we play this game.
I like spellcasters, so I will never play fighters, barbarians, etc.
I haven't got opinion about sorcerors because I haven't played them yet.
And the last thing - F/M/C could also use scrolls as the rest of mages.
------------------
Elen sila Lumenn' Omentielvo
The best class?
I must say that Berzerker cleric (9,20) is the best class. maybe a mage can kill many powerful things, but he has to rest after ecah fight, while a strong Ber/cle can kill all minor things (including all sorts of golems) with the crom faeyr and the ring of gaxx without getting hurt seriously, and if things get tough use draw upon holy might and get 25 in con dex str.
So resting wont be needed, good class for the fast-solo-endgame
So resting wont be needed, good class for the fast-solo-endgame
Sigurd, Crazed Cleric of Talos, Servant of Evil.
As always, Rail is the voice of reason. Like his preferred character, the assassin (emphasis on @$$ 
), he lurks on the boards till some unsuspecting puke says "hey guys, my character is the BEST!" Then he strikes.
The term "best" is, of course, purely subjective. Best solo? Best team mate? Best at dealing damage? Best at taking damage? Best at casting spells? Best at losing? Best at helping the rest of the party survive but getting very few kills for themselves? Best in *whose* opinion?
I had a storming argument with Pat Bou about this over sorcerers. I hope he shows up to add his 2 cents. He felt that sorcerers were "the best". Suffice it to say, I think everyone calmed down and agreed that, although indeed "very powerful", one could not claim that any class was "the best".
Cheers to Rail!
), he lurks on the boards till some unsuspecting puke says "hey guys, my character is the BEST!" Then he strikes.The term "best" is, of course, purely subjective. Best solo? Best team mate? Best at dealing damage? Best at taking damage? Best at casting spells? Best at losing? Best at helping the rest of the party survive but getting very few kills for themselves? Best in *whose* opinion?
I had a storming argument with Pat Bou about this over sorcerers. I hope he shows up to add his 2 cents. He felt that sorcerers were "the best". Suffice it to say, I think everyone calmed down and agreed that, although indeed "very powerful", one could not claim that any class was "the best".
Cheers to Rail!
"Greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his pants for his friends."
Enchantress is my Goddess.
Few survive in the Heart of Fury...
Gamebanshee: [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/"]Make your gaming scream![/url]
Enchantress is my Goddess.
Few survive in the Heart of Fury...
Gamebanshee: [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/"]Make your gaming scream![/url]
Gosh! *blushes!* (I pay him well!)Originally posted by Gruntboy:
As always, Rail is the voice of reason. Like his preferred character, the assassin (emphasis on @$$
The term "best" is, of course, purely subjective. Best solo? Best team mate? Best at dealing damage? Best at taking damage? Best at casting spells? Best at losing? Best at helping the rest of the party survive but getting very few kills for themselves? Best in *whose* opinion?
I had a storming argument with Pat Bou about this over sorcerers. I hope he shows up to add his 2 cents. He felt that sorcerers were "the best". Suffice it to say, I think everyone calmed down and agreed that, although indeed "very powerful", one could not claim that any class was "the best".
Cheers to Rail!
Did you have an arguement with Pat?!?
Really?!? 
Matti Il-Amin, Paladin, comedian, and expert adventurer. Proudly bearing the colors of the [url="http://www.svelmoe.dk/blade/index.htm"]Blades of the Banshee[/url]
Sorcerer is the best IMHO...or specialist mages. I don't like plain mages.
Edwin, mighty founder of the Council of Mages; Co-founder of the Shadow Mages
Sorcery and Shadow together as one, the arcane and the dark united. Through our knowledge and skill none can stand against us. We are as one, infallible and invincible. The Shadow Mages.
Sorcery and Shadow together as one, the arcane and the dark united. Through our knowledge and skill none can stand against us. We are as one, infallible and invincible. The Shadow Mages.
I'm happy that most of us has concluded that there is no point in talking about the "overally best" class. Still it is useful to know which classes are better in a specific aspects. So let me react on the last posts in such manner.
I have checked the F/M/C and I was really disappointed with it. It has limited weapon proficiencies: cannot go over normal specialization and can only put two in the two weapon prof and the HP is very low (I don't know if it is such in D&D or BG is buggy). Another problems is that at a homogen mid-level of 11/12/12 the enhancement spells like Tenser's, Rightous Magic don't make a big difference.
As I wrote earlier I agree that a Berserker/Cleric is one of the best fighters, but that not necessarily mean the "best in going through the game with the less rest". Mages and clerics can use another effective "fighting" option: summon some long term, strong creatures (Skeleton Warriors or Elementals), which could easily win a couple of average encounters for their lifetime.
But more importantly, the number of rests necessary to finish only slightly corresponds to the available spells slots. Classes have specific abilites, some of them are "unlimited", like turn undead, stealth or backstab. And think about the items abilities: weapons/wands/scrolls/poitions, etc. Some more spell slots simply doesn't make any difference. The whole question of "best class going through the game with the less rests" becaming a little non-sense (though if you ask me, I would bet on dual ranger/cleric).
A note on the debate in the PC vs. PC thread (Pat and the sorcerer). That discussion was not about the generally best class. But about how the classes perform against each other in a duel setup. In a hope that we can test them against each other. Still an interesting issue I think!
[This message has been edited by Kovi (edited 03-21-2001).]
I have checked the F/M/C and I was really disappointed with it. It has limited weapon proficiencies: cannot go over normal specialization and can only put two in the two weapon prof and the HP is very low (I don't know if it is such in D&D or BG is buggy). Another problems is that at a homogen mid-level of 11/12/12 the enhancement spells like Tenser's, Rightous Magic don't make a big difference.
As I wrote earlier I agree that a Berserker/Cleric is one of the best fighters, but that not necessarily mean the "best in going through the game with the less rest". Mages and clerics can use another effective "fighting" option: summon some long term, strong creatures (Skeleton Warriors or Elementals), which could easily win a couple of average encounters for their lifetime.
But more importantly, the number of rests necessary to finish only slightly corresponds to the available spells slots. Classes have specific abilites, some of them are "unlimited", like turn undead, stealth or backstab. And think about the items abilities: weapons/wands/scrolls/poitions, etc. Some more spell slots simply doesn't make any difference. The whole question of "best class going through the game with the less rests" becaming a little non-sense (though if you ask me, I would bet on dual ranger/cleric).
A note on the debate in the PC vs. PC thread (Pat and the sorcerer). That discussion was not about the generally best class. But about how the classes perform against each other in a duel setup. In a hope that we can test them against each other. Still an interesting issue I think!
[This message has been edited by Kovi (edited 03-21-2001).]
A few points Kovi -
Multiclass character receive lower average HP because when they level up in each class they receive HitDiceNumber/number of classes + con bonus/number of classes *for each level*.
On the other hand, they're multiclass so receive all those benefits.
Beyond specialisation, the benefits are not that great - personally I don't see the point in going beyond specialisation (unless you cheat and use level 50 rules). The extra powers of a ranger/paladin/multi character far outweigh the "loss".
I agree, it is useful to discuss the pros AND cons of various classes/kits. However, the fact that there are so many different classes and kits means that each one is different and whomsoever beleives theirs is "the best" will get a nasty surprise at the hands of someone who believes *their* character is best.
Point being, at the end of the day, a *party* should be able to employ all its strengths and cover all its weaknesses and defeat any one individual.
Multiclass character receive lower average HP because when they level up in each class they receive HitDiceNumber/number of classes + con bonus/number of classes *for each level*.
On the other hand, they're multiclass so receive all those benefits.
Beyond specialisation, the benefits are not that great - personally I don't see the point in going beyond specialisation (unless you cheat and use level 50 rules). The extra powers of a ranger/paladin/multi character far outweigh the "loss".
I agree, it is useful to discuss the pros AND cons of various classes/kits. However, the fact that there are so many different classes and kits means that each one is different and whomsoever beleives theirs is "the best" will get a nasty surprise at the hands of someone who believes *their* character is best.
Point being, at the end of the day, a *party* should be able to employ all its strengths and cover all its weaknesses and defeat any one individual.
"Greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his pants for his friends."
Enchantress is my Goddess.
Few survive in the Heart of Fury...
Gamebanshee: [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/"]Make your gaming scream![/url]
Enchantress is my Goddess.
Few survive in the Heart of Fury...
Gamebanshee: [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/"]Make your gaming scream![/url]
In other words, which character would "best" another in combat...Originally posted by Kovi:
[B
A note on the debate in the PC vs. PC thread (Pat and the sorcerer). That discussion was not about the generally best class. But about how the classes perform against each other in a duel setup[/b]
"Greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his pants for his friends."
Enchantress is my Goddess.
Few survive in the Heart of Fury...
Gamebanshee: [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/"]Make your gaming scream![/url]
Enchantress is my Goddess.
Few survive in the Heart of Fury...
Gamebanshee: [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/"]Make your gaming scream![/url]
My favourite classes are:
dual Kensai/Mage
dual Ranger/Cleric
dual Swashbucker/Mage
multi Fighter/Thief
multi Fighter/Illusionist
I think these are better than single class mages, clerics or thieves because they can fight quite well (and have much more HP) and loose only the special skills the kits have.
dual Kensai/Mage
dual Ranger/Cleric
dual Swashbucker/Mage
multi Fighter/Thief
multi Fighter/Illusionist
I think these are better than single class mages, clerics or thieves because they can fight quite well (and have much more HP) and loose only the special skills the kits have.
Originally posted by Watto44:
Go max!!!
Bountyhunters are awesome. Okay, so the special traps are nothing special, but they are additional traps. Since just about anything worth mentioning (dragons, demi-lichs, rarara) saves against the often anoying hold/otiluke's/maze, I just treat them as a normal trap. the shadowdragon's armor and belm's (?) additional attack make me ok in most cannon fodder fights.
There is no save against maze and you can still hurt characters in an otilukes sphere not much but you can.
You can't handle the truth!