Gun Control Debate

Apache Rain · Post by **Apache Rain** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:14 pm

Gilliatt wrote:The statistics people have shown on the other thread are clear about that : where there is gun control, the number of crimes other than killings are not higher than in the USA, and the killings are lower. What I meant is that the weekend car jackers and house robbers won't do their crime with a gun anymore so you won't need one to "save" your life when and if they do so to you. And you don't have to worry about organized crime (who will still own plenty of weapons even with gun control) killing you, unless of course you interfere with their business.

Most car jackers and house robbers are not interested in killing people, they just want money: these persons are parasites, not danger.

Not true,there desperate and they will kill you are run off when cought in the act,is that the chance you want to take with your life are the life of your family,are maybe rape and kill your family,keep the guns and they will thaink twice about it,i shoot first then ask question's.

mr_sir · Post by **mr_sir** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:17 pm

Apache Rain wrote:Not true,there desperate and they will kill you are run off when cought in the act,is that the chance you want to take with your life are the life of your family,are maybe rape and kill your family,keep the guns and they will thaink twice about it,i shoot first then ask question's.

And end up in prison on manslaughter or murder charges when you eventually can not justifiably explain why you killed an unarmed man, even if they did break into your home ...

Apache Rain · Post by **Apache Rain** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:24 pm

mr_sir wrote:And end up in prison on manslaughter or murder charges when you eventually can not justifiably explain why you killed an unarmed man, even if they did break into your home ...

Only in some states,ever herd of home invasion,and the bill that say's we have the right to protect are self and are property.

TEMPLAR67 · Post by **TEMPLAR67** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:36 pm

Don't be offended Templar67, maybe it just because you are not familiar with forums, but with the number of smilies you used when you talked about them, you often sounded like a child talking about his favorite toy. At least that is the impression it gave me and I believe Vicsun also had the same impression.

Im not offended, i just have alot of good memories with my borthers at the range so i tend to speak more fondly of guns than most people.

Woah...woah... let's not stereotype here.
While it is often true that people on the left are in favour of gun control and people on the right are opposed to it, that is not always the case.
From my own vantage point, I know people who are all over the political spectrum, and their views are very diverse and sometimes surprising.

sry, didnt mean to sterotype

Only in some states,ever herd of home invasion,and the bill that say's we have the right to protect are self and are property.

ahh yes, the castle doctrine, good stuff there

Gilliatt · Post by **Gilliatt** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:39 pm

Apache Rain wrote:Not true,there desperate and they will kill you are run off when cought in the act,is that the chance you want to take with your life are the life of your family,are maybe rape and kill your family,keep the guns and they will thaink twice about it,i shoot first then ask question's.

One of my friend used to steal cars and I think some people he hang out with still do it. They have never killed anyone and will never do so for a car or a radio. I'll repeat: most of them are parasites, not murderers.

If you think all car jackers and house robbers end up killing people, than your logic would probably make you think that all people who looked at a porn magazine once in their life end up as rapists.

TEMPLAR67 · Post by **TEMPLAR67** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:43 pm

One of my friend used to steal cars and I think some people he hang out with still do it. They have never killed anyone and will never do so for a car or a radio. I'll repeat: most of them are parasites, not murderers.

If you think all car jackers and house robbers end up killing people, than your logic would probably make you think that all people who looked at a porn magazine once in their life end up as rapists.

cmon guys do we have to go back to this discussion, we were beginnig to make a breakthrough of agreement.

Gilliatt · Post by **Gilliatt** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:56 pm

TEMPLAR67 wrote:cmon guys do we have to go back to this discussion, we were beginnig to make a breakthrough of agreement.

I am not the one who started it.

Seriously, you are right, but we cannot interdict people to join the discussion and since Apache Rain brought back something I had written, I thaught I had to answer. I agree I should have done it without putting my beloved analogies.

No offense meant Apache Rain.

TEMPLAR67 · Post by **TEMPLAR67** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:07 pm

I agree I should have done it without putting my beloved analogies.

your analogies are great

wouldnt be the same w/o them.

One of my friend used to steal cars and I think some people he hang out with still do it. They have never killed anyone and will never do so for a car or a radio. I'll repeat: most of them are parasites, not murderers.

And your friend is lucky none of the owners ever came back while he was in the act.

The Advocate, Baton Rouge, LA, 01/14/06
State: la
American Rifleman Issue: 4/1/2006
According to police, a man stole a fire extinguisher from a dialysis center, then attempted to use it to break into a nearby home. A detective responding to a burglar alarm at the dialysis center witnessed an armed citizen thwart the alleged home invader. "While [the detective] was waiting for uniform patrol, he noticed a commotion across the street at a home," said a police spokesman. The detective reported that the man was allegedly trying to break through the front door using the fire extinguisher, but was shot in the groin by one of the occupants. The suspect was arrested on multiple charges after his release from the hospital.

This story always makes me laugh:laugh: when i red that last part i felt it.

Apache Rain · Post by **Apache Rain** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:29 pm

Gilliatt wrote:One of my friend used to steal cars and I think some people he hang out with still do it. They have never killed anyone and will never do so for a car or a radio. I'll repeat: most of them are parasites, not murderers.

If you think all car jackers and house robbers end up killing people, than your logic would probably make you think that all people who looked at a porn magazine once in their life end up as rapists.

I never said all of them are killers,i said are you willing to take that chance,with your life are your familys life,PORN,:laugh: I NEED NOT TO LOOK AT PORN,i got all i need at home,it is the real thaing,you should try it

,my BAD,i never said anythaing about porn and rape,so what is your story,:laugh:

Gilliatt · Post by **Gilliatt** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:47 pm

Apache Rain wrote:I never said all of them are killers,i said are you willing to take that chance,with your life are your familys life,PORN,:laugh: I NEED NOT TO LOOK AT PORN,i got all i need at home,it is the real thaing,you should try it ,my BAD,i never said anythaing about porn and rape,so what is your story,:laugh:

Well, with the way you answered "not true" and added that they are desperate and would kill, I thaught you were completely denying what I had said. That is what made me believe you were seeing all of them as killers since I had already admitted that some of them would kill, which would have been very excessive on your part, hence the other excessive analogy.

I guess it was a misunderstanding on my part. I had no intention of bringing your sex life or mine in the discussion, so let's just forget about the analogy and go on from there.

TEMPLAR67 · Post by **TEMPLAR67** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 6:29 pm

Altoona Mirror, Altoona, PA, 02/25/05
State: PA
American Rifleman Issue: 7/1/2005
Even after ramming a police cruiser with his own vehicle, a reckless driver in Blair County, Penn., apparently thought he could run from the authorities. But in the end he couldn't hide from an armed citizen. The pursuit began shortly after midnight when police unsuccessfully tried to pull over a car that had run a stop sign. After an extended high-speed chase, the officer on the scene broke off pursuit, but police soon found the suspect's vehicle overturned and unoccupied. Shortly thereafter, the county's 9-1-1 center received a call about a man attempting to gain entry to a nearby home, but responding officers were not able to locate him. A few minutes later, a second call from the residence said that the man had been found hiding in the basement. Upon arrival police found a cornered suspect being held at gunpoint by a female resident. He was positively identified as the driver and taken into custody.

This is another on of those "ya never knows" i may have mentioned earlier, this man was a dangerous criminal that the police could not find when he was cornered by police he may have taken her hostage had she not had a gun. just some food for thought

Dottie · Post by **Dottie** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:56 pm

@Vicsun: I thought that what was claimed was that easy access to firearms increased murder rates, not that the number of firearms did?

@Templar67 & Apache Rain: You keep repeating that firearms are a good way to protect your property, but you still haven't answered why this isn't reflected in USA crime statistics. Posting anecdotes won't change this fact.

[QUOTE=Apache Rain]
I never said all of them are killers,i said are you willing to take that chance,with your life are your familys life[/QUOTE]

This is a erroneous argument. If a persons ownership of and reliance on guns actually increases the chance of injury then you are not gambling at all.

[QUOTE=Apache Rain]i never said anythaing about porn and rape,so what is your story,[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Apache Rain]Not true,there desperate and they will kill you are run off when cought in the act,is that the chance you want to take with your life are the life of your family,are maybe rape and kill your family,keep the guns and they will thaink twice about it[/QUOTE]

Alzheimer's?

mr_sir · Post by **mr_sir** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 5:57 am

Vicsun wrote:What you're saying is true, and that thought definitely crossed my mind when I made the post, though I claim that the tensions in the region don't undermine my point, which is that eliminating firearms isn't necessarily an effective way of eliminating gun violence, and furthermore restricting civilians' ownership of guns isn't effective in preventing criminal (or in this case para-military) elements from obtaining guns. All of this aside, though, Ireland is a single country, and even if I conceded that it is hard to determine anything from from that particular set of numbers, I still can't see a correlation between gun ownership and casualties in any of the data DW provided. If such a correlation is shown to me, I will quickly change my tune and even admit to a casual relationship between the two.

I wasn't meaning that it makes your points invalid because it many ways I agree with you. I just meant that the data for the number of guns in households in N.Ireland is most likely inaccurate as there are a lot of illegal (and therefore unregistered guns) in circulation in that region (or at least there used to be before the terrorism died down a bit, not sure if there still are large numbers of illegal weapons in circulation).

Vicsun · Post by **Vicsun** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 8:30 am

Dottie wrote:@Vicsun: I thought that what was claimed was that easy access to firearms increased murder rates, not that the number of firearms did?

My first post in the thread wasn't a response to anyone; I brought up the question whether the number of firearms affects the number of firearm-related deaths, since the solution to gun violence I most often hear proposed is a limit on the number of firearms available.

ApacheRain]Not true wrote: I agree completely. Maybe that burglar is actually the next Adolf Hitler so by shooting them you're preventing World War Three. It's possible they just want your stuff, but can you really take the chance???

edit:
PORN :laugh: I NEED NOT TO LOOK AT PORN,i got all i need at home,it is the real thaing,you should try it

i also want to point out that i have sex too because that lends credibility to my arguments

mr_sir · Post by **mr_sir** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 8:36 am

Apache Rain wrote:Only in some states,ever herd of home invasion,and the bill that say's we have the right to protect are self and are property.

There is a big difference between having the right to protect yourself and your property and having the right to murder somebody. Whether they are on your land or not, if you kill somebody when your life is not in danger then its murder (unless it was accidental, in which case it is more likely to be manslaughter). Killing someone in self defence is one thing, but killing someone just because they might take your tv or dvd player is another thing entirely.

Moonbiter · Post by **Moonbiter** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:03 pm

I've read through this entire thread, and the "Massacre" thread, and I can't find a single coherent, logical argument against Gun Control. Assuming everyone has read ALL the posts, the facts and the evidence... Could I get one? In three short, to-the-point, sentences?

TEMPLAR67 · Post by **TEMPLAR67** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:24 pm

There is a big difference between having the right to protect yourself and your property and having the right to murder somebody. Whether they are on your land or not, if you kill somebody when your life is not in danger then its murder

First off, its not murder if they break into your home. Second, you dont know if your life is in danger or not so why take the chance? What are you gonna do go up and ask the person if they plan on hurting you, and if they dont just let them steal your things

I've read through this entire thread, and the "Massacre" thread, and I can't find a single coherent, logical argument against Gun Control. Assuming everyone has read ALL the posts, the facts and the evidence... Could I get one? In three short, to-the-point, sentences?

Hows this for ya

During the decades the American Rifleman has published “The Armed Citizen” column, thousands of incidents of law-abiding Americans using firearms to halt or prevent crime have appeared in the magazine. Editorial space allowing, the total could have been far greater of course, as award-winning survey research shows that each year in the U.S. gun owners use firearms for protection as frequently as 2.5 million times.

This archive contains “Armed Citizen” entries from the present back to 1958. The database is searchable by key word and state and results are displayed in chronological order according to the month of publication in the American Rifleman.

sry its not 3 sentences. heres a link if youd like to check it out NRA-ILA :: Armed Citizen

mr_sir · Post by **mr_sir** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 2:58 pm

TEMPLAR67 wrote:First off, its not murder if they break into your home. Second, you dont know if your life is in danger or not so why take the chance? What are you gonna do go up and ask the person if they plan on hurting you, and if they dont just let them steal your things

Just one simple question: Do you believe it is morally wrong to kill someone if it is not in self defense?

Killing someone on purpose is murder, whether they are in your home or not. Also, name one possession that is worth either you or them dying over...

Lastly, if someone breaks in waving a gun then yeah you have a case for self defense. But if they stand there with a look of panic on their face and make a run for the door, if you shoot them then it is cowardly and assault and if they die then it is murder. Also, why risk them killing you over simple possessions? Who's to say that if they are as dangerous as you say they must be, that there isn't an accomplice standing behind you pointing a gun at your head, or raping your wife, or whatever... Or maybe they are not actually interested in hurting someone, but simply want some quick easy money ... just a thought, I know its a ludicrous idea that people break into homes to steal stuff rather than kill or attack people.

Gilliatt · Post by **Gilliatt** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 2:59 pm

Moonbiter wrote:I've read through this entire thread, and the "Massacre" thread, and I can't find a single coherent, logical argument against Gun Control. Assuming everyone has read ALL the posts, the facts and the evidence... Could I get one? In three short, to-the-point, sentences?

Shoot! And I thaught mine was!

:speech: (see post #28 in this thread)

You are a very demanding person Moonbiter.

Dottie · Post by **Dottie** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 7:25 pm

TEMPLAR67 wrote:First off, its not murder if they break into your home. Second, you dont know if your life is in danger or not so why take the chance? What are you gonna do go up and ask the person if they plan on hurting you, and if they dont just let them steal your things

But I have already answered this. I would very much appreciate a reply, assuming that since you started the thread you are interested in debating the issue.

You take a chance if you choose a line of action that increases the probability that you or your family gets hurt. So far there is no evidence to show an increased risk versus another line of action, for example running.

TEMPLAR67 wrote:During the decades the American Rifleman has published “The Armed Citizen” column, thousands of incidents of law-abiding Americans using firearms to halt or prevent crime have appeared in the magazine. Editorial space allowing, the total could have been far greater of course, as award-winning survey research shows that each year in the U.S. gun owners use firearms for protection as frequently as 2.5 million times.

This archive contains “Armed Citizen” entries from the present back to 1958. The database is searchable by key word and state and results are displayed in chronological order according to the month of publication in the American Rifleman.

You have to understand that this is not research, even though it is claimed as such. This is a collection of anecdotes that are selected by a lobby organization.

To really make this point you have to show a difference in related statistics, for example a decreased frequency of break ins or whatever crime you feel is affected by liberal gun laws.

Vicsun wrote:My first post in the thread wasn't a response to anyone; I brought up the question whether the number of firearms affects the number of firearm-related deaths, since the solution to gun violence I most often hear proposed is a limit on the number of firearms available.

I see, my fault then. I think most people would agree that who owns the gun and for what purpose influence the probability of a firearm-related death. For example if some low brow hillbilly who can barely communicate in his native tongue has a gun it might be more dangerous than if someone uses a gun responsibly for hunting etc.