Football in the US of A

[galraen]

Still, just think if Adebayor, Hleb, Rosicky and Fabregas had been in the team... I don't think it would have stayed at 2-0 for long, do you?

Who can tell in the FA cup? Arsenal might never have scored and Hleb might have scored an own goal, that's the beauty of the competition, sometimes the unthinkable happens, just ask Everton supporters.:laugh:

[Loki[D.d.G]]

It is funny sometimes that people expect Arsenal to perform as one of the best in Europe. I guess that means we all have to credit Wenger for all the brilliant work he has put into the team as a whole. Still, not many realize that as a club with such high expectations, Arsenal possibly spend the least on transfers. Wenger has never splurged an insane amount of money on an established superstar yet.

With the amount of money spent to the success ratio, I feel that they rightly deserve to be where they are now, albeit with slightly more trophies.

[galraen]

One thing's for sure, if "Sepp" Blatter gets his way and teams have to field at least six players qualified for the country they play in (and I fervently hope he does) Arsenal would be guaranteed to get relegated. Frankly I'd rather any team other than Wengers foreign legion wins the league. and Les Arsenal end up winning nothing.

[Loki[D.d.G]]

Ouch. I'm not going to argue with you, but it has to be remembered the amount of talent Arsenal has brought to the world. Especially under Wenger.

[galraen]

Ouch. I'm not going to argue with you, but it has to be remembered the amount of talent Arsenal has brought to the world. Especially under Wenger.

So how many players have Arsenal developed from youth themselves? Not that that failing is unique to Arsenal, my own club hasn't produced many themselves over the years and have far too many foreigners, but at least we have at lest three natives in the team in any one game, the Gooners usually don't have any, even when playing understrength.

Obviously this doesn't matter a darn to foreign supporters, but IMO the plethora of foreign players and managers in England is severely detrimental to the national team, to the point we even have to have a foreign national manager. And yes, I'm one of those old fashioned weirdos who puts country ahead of club.

[Dottie]

So how many players have Arsenal developed from youth themselves?

How about everyone? I don't think that it is a complete coincidence that arsenals ~20 squad plays with a maturity well beyond it's years. Obviously Wenger is doing something with them, even if they haven't been at the club since they where born.

Obviously this doesn't matter a darn to foreign supporters, but IMO the plethora of foreign players and managers in England is severely detrimental to the national team, to the point we even have to have a foreign national manager. And yes, I'm one of those old fashioned weirdos who puts country ahead of club.

It has nothing to do with not being English, at least not for me, or for anyone else I've talked to about it either. For me it's about 3 major things.
1. I don't believe the high standard of the premier league is detrimental to the quality of English players at all, quite the opposite in fact.
2. I really like the fact that there is one level of football which is very international. It gives opportunities to a lot of people who would otherwise have none.
3. I like to watch the best football possible. You get that by drawing talent from all over the world, not by limiting yourself to people who happen to live within a 10 mile radius from the grounds.

I also believe it is immoral to have quotas for foreign players the same way it would be immoral to have foreign quotas for any profession. If the Swedish gouvernment suddenly decided (against EU regulations) that any Swedish company must have at least 50% Swedish engineers I would think it racist and xenophobic, even if it were meant to protect Swedish engineering students, or universities. I can't see this being any different.

[Loki[D.d.G]]

So how many players have Arsenal developed from youth themselves? Not that that failing is unique to Arsenal, my own club hasn't produced many themselves over the years and have far too many foreigners, but at least we have at lest three natives in the team in any one game, the Gooners usually don't have any, even when playing understrength.

Walcott? Hoyte? The upcoming Mark Randall and Gibbs? In truth Arsenal have lots of young talent that hails from England, but most of them don't have what it takes to make it into the first team squad. Take for example Bentley. He was from the Arsenal youth academy but failed to make the cut for Wenger. Look where he is now. The same can be said for Mattew Upson. The irony in all of this is that Arsenal is the only club that is part of the so-called big four that remain solely under English ownership.

@Dottie
You made some good points there and I can't emphasise how much I agree with them. I take it you support Arsenal too?

Just a point to add. Personally, I feel the quality and hype of the EPL far outdoes the real quality of English players. No offense intended to the Englishmen reading this, but it shouldn't be realistic to expect England to reach at least the quarters of every major competition. Unless they can uncover some really top talents which Brazil seem to have in abundance, then I don't believe that they can go far. At least not in the near future.

[galraen]

Everyone of Arsenal's first team squad who have actually started a game was bought from another team, not developed from scratch with the exception of Randall, who started one league cup game.

The 'high quality' of the EPL is a benefit to those who get a chance to play in it, unfortunately that benefits non-British countries as much or more than British ones these days. It's also detrimental to the countries of origin of the foreign players, not just those playing in England either. How much better would the standards of the Swedish top division be if their top players were playing in it? How many more Swedes would actually support a Swedish team rather than a foreign one?

It must also be pretty sickening for supporters of teams in other countries to see the exciting young players they've developed up sticks and move abroad as soon as they've become good.

I don't blame the players, who can expect anyone to turn down a lucrative offer to play elsewhere. The problem is that most clubs are too short term conscious and lazy to allow a young player to learn their trade the hard way. Why put in an untried kid like Walcott, when you can simply go out and by Adebayor for cheap off the shelf? Force the teams to play at least six home grown players and the clubs will have to pay more attention to their development systems. There will still be plenty of opportunity for imported players and maybe the next time an England manager faces a crucial qualifier and Rooney and Owen are unfit (again!!!!) he won't feel obliged to play Crouch on his own because the likes of Defoe and Bent aren't match fit!

As for it being immoral to put the interests of your countryman above people from abroad, what's immoral about it? What's so moral in having your own people out of work because it's easy to import cheap labour?

If the Swedish gouvernment suddenly decided (against EU regulations) that any Swedish company must have at least 50% Swedish engineers I would think it racist and xenophobic, even if it were meant to protect Swedish engineering students, or universities.

Xenophobic? Racist? No just the Swedish government doing its job, and taking care of the people it was elected to care for. Unfortunately governments of all counties are far more interested in pandering to big business and lining their own pockets with backhanders than doing an honest job. The FA should be doing exactly that and looking out for the well being of English footballers, but the FA sold it's soul over a decade ago.

3. I like to watch the best football possible. You get that by drawing talent from all over the world, not by limiting yourself to people who happen to live within a 10 mile radius from the grounds.

Fine, get Goteborg or Kalmar to buy all foreign players, then you can watch them every week.

No offense intended to the Englishmen reading this, but it shouldn't be realistic to expect England to reach at least the quarters of every major competition.

None taken, by me at least (not taken at Dottie's post either, everyone's entitled to their views). I think that far too many people over here have far too high expectations, reaching the QF of the world cup is a decent achievement for a country like England; failing to reach the finals of the Euro Cup though was a kick where it hurts.

Most people in the UK think I'm a blasphemer, because I've advocated the UK having one team for years, I think it's ridiculous to enter four teams in every international competition, and extremely unfair to other countries, but I'm afraid I'm a lone voice in the wilderness of real xenophobia!

[Dottie]

@Dottie
You made some good points there and I can't emphasise how much I agree with them. I take it you support Arsenal too?

I'm actually a Barca fan, if anything. But I still feel Arsenal deserves a tremendous amount of respect for what they are doing right now.

The 'high quality' of the EPL is a benefit to those who get a chance to play in it, unfortunately that benefits non-British countries as much or more than British ones these days. It's also detrimental to the countries of origin of the foreign players, not just those playing in England either. How much better would the standards of the Swedish top division be if their top players were playing in it? How many more Swedes would actually support a Swedish team rather than a foreign one?

Well, even if there aren't a lot of English players there is still way more than 25, and as long as that is the case I believe England will benefit. As for the standard in Sweden I think it wouldn't change much. Sweden is a small nation and we have never had enough top quality players to fill even one starting eleven. If the few swedish players that actually are quite good never left Sweden I think the biggest change would be that they wouldn't be so good due to lack of a proper place to develop.

Force the teams to play at least six home grown players and the clubs will have to pay more attention to their development systems.

If by homegrown you mean English then I disagree, however, if you mean homegrown according to current uefa regulations then I couldn't agree more. That would mean that a lot of Arsenal players would count as home grown though.

As for it being immoral to put the interests of your countryman above people from abroad, what's immoral about it? What's so moral in having your own people out of work because it's easy to import cheap labour?

Well, in my opinion it's immoral because you make a difference between people and people which have nothing to do with their actual abilities and everything to do with something they can't change. I can't see why a Swedish engineer is more deserving of a job than an Iranian one, just because they both happen to apply for work in Sweden. I think this answers your second paragraph as well?

[Brother None]

It must also be pretty sickening for supporters of teams in other countries to see the exciting young players they've developed up sticks and move abroad as soon as they've become good.

The plague of a lot of national competitions, including the Dutch lately. Nevermind no Ruud van Nistelrooy, I always get this feeling that guys like Wesley Sneijder, Robin van Persie and Rafael van der Vaart spend all their time in Holland as diamonds in the rough. We usually get a few months of really good play before they're shipped out.

Arsenal is the world's best team, barring perhaps on Real Madrid, with van Persie on the field. Without him they're one of England's 4 best, but they don't really stick out. And boy can't seem to keep from getting injured.

[Loki[D.d.G]]

Welcome to the SYM forums Brother None. Nice to see you here and out of our news thread. A fellow Gooner too, who would have guessed.

van Persie has tonnes of potential, of that I'm certain. The only problem is if he is able to stay fit long enough to develop into a world class player. If not, I fear he might end up like Micheal Owen.

[Brother None]

Welcome to the SYM forums Brother None. Nice to see you here and out of our news thread. A fellow Gooner too, who would have guessed.

Gooner? I'm Dutch, I don't really care that much for the Premier League (shocking, I know), and I'm a Feyenoord fan if anything.
I just like the way Arsenal plays. Calling them the best is an objective opinion, not Goonership.
(and Real Madrid really is better)

van Persie has tonnes of potential, of that I'm certain.

Potential? No. Sneijder or Robben have "potential", when he's on the field, van Persie carries the Dutch national team, and he does the same for Arsenal. As a striker or winger, he's been involved in every goal made in matches he's played for the national team in the qualifiers last year, and much the same for Arsenal. He's already one of the best, no doubt about it.

But yes, he should try and get hurt less. It's not that he needs to develop more, it's just that he needs to play, period. You can't be a great footballer if you're not on the field. I've long since given up on Arjen Robben on that count.

[Loki[D.d.G]]

He is a talented individual, but not exactly the centerstone for Arsenal. Cesc Fabregas is the man who really gets things moving for them. van Persie still can improve on some stuff such as his finishing and the use of his right foot. What I meant by develop was also from a mental point. He has a hot temper to match that talent, and should mature fast into a professional if he wants to see half the red cards he usually gets.

[Brother None]

He is a talented individual, but not exactly the centerstone for Arsenal. Cesc Fabregas is the man who really gets things moving for them.

Fabregas is the playmaker, yes, that's what playmakers do, get things moving. And I never said van Persie is the cornerstone, but he does carry the team. As does Fabregas. You don't have just one guy carrying the team, certainly not on that level. That'd be like Barcelona with only Ronaldinho and no Messi or Eto'o.
Regardless, every time van Persie is hurt Arsenal starts tumbling in the rankings. Every. Single. Time. (well, ok, the last three times, but still)

He has a hot temper to match that talent, and should mature fast into a professional if he wants to see half the red cards he usually gets.

That is true, but the Premier League is not the place to do that. Hell, the only worst place for that is the Bundesliga.

[Loki[D.d.G]]

Fabregas is the playmaker, yes, that's what playmakers do, get things moving. And I never said van Persie is the cornerstone, but he does carry the team. As does Fabregas. You don't have just one guy carrying the team, certainly not on that level. That'd be like Barcelona with only Ronaldinho and no Messi or Eto'o.
Regardless, every time van Persie is hurt Arsenal starts tumbling in the rankings. Every. Single. Time. (well, ok, the last three times, but still)

I agree with you there. He is important because he can get the goals which we sometimes lack. Well, Fulham is up later. Lets see how Arsenal cope in that London derby, minus RvP.

[Dottie]

@Galraen: Since I have a resident Portsmouth fan ready at my mercy I though I should take the opportunity and ask what you think of the Benjani transfer? Why sell your leading goalscorer for a paltry sum of £3.8m? Or is there additional fees after league starts or something like that? Also, What do you think of the player in question? I know next to nothing about him.

[galraen]

We get anothe £3.8m after (I think) 70 appearances. I must admit I thought it was strange, but he is very streaky, he can score five goals in two games and then none for two months. He's quick, works his socks off, decent first touch when he's on form, but he also has a suspect knee, which is why there was a hold up in his transfer. He's also African of course, and although Zimbabwe didn't qualify this time, losing five first team players because of the African Cup of Nations probably had something to do with it. I have to say I'm delighted it's over and we've got Sully Muntari back, and hopefully healthy.