Demi-gods, avatars, and nonsense.

Waverly · Post by **Waverly** » Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:43 pm

Don't have my trilogy at the office, Nighthawk, but the confusion comes in I think a little earlier in the encounter. My memory (which obviously is not perfect) tells me that the first description of the balrog involves "a shadow of darkness like two great wings." This leads many to believe that the latter wings are a metaphor, not actual wings. Clearly, the balrog is more creature of nothingness than substance- but I am with you: he had wings.

Nighthawk · Post by **Nighthawk** » Wed Jan 10, 2001 6:20 pm

Yes, I saw that when I re-read after posting the first time. Darkness and fire.

On second read I think that it is wings of shadow but then the creature is mostly shadow anyway...however I don't remember a case ever of a balrog flying.

Still reading about Gandalf.

Drakron Du´Dark · Post by **Drakron Du´Dark** » Wed Jan 10, 2001 6:25 pm

If He could fly he would ba able to suvive the fall.I cant tell you very much since my books are translated.And translated books usualy lost some of the meaning do to translators errors.

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"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not became a monster... when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss gazes into you..."
Friedrich Nietzsche

Nighthawk · Post by **Nighthawk** » Wed Jan 10, 2001 6:37 pm

They both survived the fall, at least initially, as well as combat during the long fall. However on further review it does seem Gandalf perished in the end after killing the balrog. I can't find the text on-line and don't have the book handy, but found this from one of Tolkien's letters:

"Gandalf really 'died', and was changed: for that seems to me the only real cheating, to represent anything that can be called 'death' as making no difference... He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or govenors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. 'Naked I was sent back- for a brief time, until my task is done'. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time'. Naked is alas! unclear. It was meant just literally, 'unclothed like a child' (not disincarnate), and so ready to receive the white robes of the highest."

It also appears he was sent back not by the Valar, but by Eru, Illuvatar himself.

Hmm...are we WAY off the topic of BG2 or what!

Waverly · Post by **Waverly** » Thu Jan 11, 2001 8:31 am

Tolkein's letters often cast a great deal of light on some of the more difficult concepts. He would also take the time to weave a loose thread (a mistake perhaps) back into the story so that it made sense. Why didn't someone just cast ressurect on him

TrIp-WiRe · Post by **TrIp-WiRe** » Thu Jan 11, 2001 9:07 am

Just to clear things up - I live in Johannesburg South Africa and Tolkien was born in Bloomfontein about 3.5 hrs South of where I am.

FoulDwimmerlaik · Post by **FoulDwimmerlaik** » Thu Jan 11, 2001 9:29 am

@waverly:
Amazing. Everytime I get on this board, you're here. I've said it before, this game is a sickness.

To your point about casting ressurection on The Grey Pilgrim: amen!

Waverly · Post by **Waverly** » Thu Jan 11, 2001 9:32 am

Foul, one or both of us are very sick. I just kind of monitor the board while talking on the phone or sorting though my papers - so I am technically still very much working. How about you?

FoulDwimmerlaik · Post by **FoulDwimmerlaik** » Thu Jan 11, 2001 2:51 pm

Wave:
Agreed. Both of us are sick. I run business development for a group of advertising firms, and since I discovered this place a few days ago, I've had it up all day. I'm usually not in my office, but in between meetings...I come back...So I really am working as well, though this is proving to be a nice distraction...

Flagg · Post by **Flagg** » Fri May 11, 2001 9:52 am

Moving topic to Speak Your Mind...

ThorinOakensfield · Post by **ThorinOakensfield** » Fri May 11, 2001 1:10 pm

So Gandalf was ressurected by Eru the highest god himself. I didn't think off that. The Barlog gandalf fought was one of the most powerful i believe, and he was the reason the dwarves left Moria aka Khazad Dum. I was reading the Simmarlion and on all the forces Melkor(Morgoth) kept on sending to crush the elves (mainly the gray and high elves) and they were led by the dragon king (forgot its name) and by the elite barlogs. The elite barlogs are supposed to be more powerful than the drake kings? In the Simarllion there wasn't much talk on barlogs, but more on werewolves and dragons.
Gandalf must have died, then been resurrected and picked up by the eagle king and given new powers. Does Gandalf fight Sauron anywhere in the book, because i keep on hearing about a battle between the two, but nothing happened. Did anybody find the end of the story slightly disappointing. I mean the War of the Ring was so hyped up in Elrond's council and i really expected a titanic battle. But what happened was that the Nazgul king led a small force to attack Minas Tirith, but was defeated by the Rohhirim. Then all the humans and elves marched down to the gate of Mordor, where they realized that they were surrounded by a huge army. I though that would be the big battle, but Frodo destroyed the ring and the army collapsed as it came charging down. I expected a larger battle.
Another question. To my understanding Orcs are pure evil creatures made by Melkor as a mockery of elves and are between 6-7 feet. Goblins are small dwarve sized creatures that dwell in mountains bu can come in different sizes, such as the giant goblins. So they are 2 different creatures, aren't they?
I was reading Norse mythology and knowing that Tolkein got alot of ideas from there and Beowulf, i was surprised to learn that the Valar and most of Tolkien's names are from there.

ThorinOakensfield · Post by **ThorinOakensfield** » Fri May 11, 2001 1:16 pm

Oh yes i would really love a game where you go and fight 50 orcs or attack a goblin cave. A game where fighting a wolf can be dangerous. That's why i really loved chap. 1 in BG, cause you get to fight a few wolves ogres and goblins, and consider them a tough fight. Its quite boring in bg2 that all you fight are golems. Even in the Drizzt books they didn't fight that many powerful beasts. A couple of dragons, a few mindflayers, some drow, a few golems, a few demons, and over a few years strech. Not like in bg2 where you can fight 5 liches, 5 dragons, 50 golems, 10 rakasha, 50 illithid, and never fight any orcs in the wilderness.

cheesemage · Post by **cheesemage** » Fri May 11, 2001 1:44 pm

Thorin If havent played it that game is icewind dale

sigurd · Post by **sigurd** » Fri May 18, 2001 1:06 am

Just so you know, even Sauron "died" many times, just like Gandalf, in silmarillion. But he always get a new body. I might be wrong about all facts here, since it has been a while.

Sauron
Gandalf
Balrogs,
even Dragons i think, are all maiar.

And dragons were indeed more powerful than balrogs. Maybe not the "closest" servants, but indeed the most powerful. They werent suited as servants in ways balrogs were, like leading an army. Well, Melkor surely "invented" even more powerful creatures than the dragons, but they never had the chance to be known of, since the elves cleansing of Melkors hideout

The balrog Gandalf met wasnt one of the strongest, quite the opposite from what i understand.
You people seem to think Gandalf was a demi-god, but there were so many more powerful creatures, even during the LOTR era.