GameBanshee Forums

Woops, double post. But I'll use this moment to quote a previous poster.

Grizlok wrote: I'm old school, I don't want cameras to move all around in my isometeric views, i don't need to zoom in. I'd be happy if fallout 3 was literally fallout 2 with new story and better graphics/slightly improved interface maybe. honestly i wish they made fallout 3 the way it looks like blizzard is making D3.

Absolutely!

Grizlok wrote: I'm old school, I don't want cameras to move all around in my isometeric views, i don't need to zoom in. I'd be happy if fallout 3 was literally fallout 2 with new story and better graphics/slightly improved interface maybe. honestly i wish they made fallout 3 the way it looks like blizzard is making D3.

Hey I can vote for this

I played Fallout 3 an enjoyed it in the most part, after finishing I got all the add ons. But I found after two of them that was enough.

First impressions are that as I expected from Bethesda the game is a first person shooter, not an RPG. Skill are trivialised, if anything worse than Oblivion. A typical example is lock picking being just a twitch game with no reference to the character's skill apart from deciding if the character can even try.

When it comes to RPGs Bethesda really don't get it do they.

Having said that I am having fun so far, well apart from stealth being useless that is. I've given up on that approach and just going gunny.

galraen wrote:First impressions are that as I expected from Bethesda the game is a first person shooter, not an RPG.

Pretty much, although if you use VATS it does shift a bit of the emphasis from the player's button-mashing skills to the character's relevant attributes & weapon skill.

galraen wrote:A typical example is lock picking being just a twitch game with no reference to the character's skill apart from deciding if the character can even try.

Ugh. Lock picking is the most egregious example in the game of a task that should be dependent on the character's attributes being dependent instead on the player's skill with the controller or keyboard. Even the so-called "hacking" mini-game is influenced by your character's Science skill (a terminal of any given difficulty will have less words and more bracket pairs the higher your skill goes).

galraen wrote:When it comes to RPGs Bethesda really don't get it do they.

I'm feeling generous, so let's just say they... blur the lines between genres? (But no, they either don't get RPGs, or don't believe they could sell it if they made one).

galraen wrote:Having said that I am having fun so far, well apart from stealth being useless that is. I've given up on that approach and just going gunny.

Unless you have the patience of a saint, Sneak skill is really only valuable if you take the "silent running" perk. Without it, any speed beyond a slow walk will get you caught, and in first person mode it's unbearable to do anything less than a jog. Plus, lighting conditions, line of sight, and any armor you have equipped do seem to matter as well, so stick to the shadows and wear the lightest armor you can. That said, my characters are frequently all about stealth, and if you take those caveats into consideration you can be pretty successful with it.

When does silent running become available Belthan? I don't recall seeing it so far, I think I'm 5th level and just about to go to Rivet City. Or I was until I got slaughtered in the Mall subway!

The levelling in this game so far hasn't seemed to be as all encompassing as it was in Oblivion, although it seems to be extremely easy to find yourself out of your depth without many indications that you've crossed any boundaries. I think I'm getting the hang of it though.

I'll try slowing down, it only just occurred to me that I was running all the time, is 'always run' the default mode or did I accidentally trigger it? Whichever, I'll turn it off now I realise it's activated.

The facial graphics in this game are noticeably cruder than in Oblivion, which is obviously deliberate; is there a reason for that?

galraen wrote:When does silent running become available Belthan?

I believe the prerequisites are 12th level, AGL >= 6 and Sneak skill >= 50.

galraen wrote:The levelling in this game so far hasn't seemed to be as all encompassing as it was in Oblivion, although it seems to be extremely easy to find yourself out of your depth without many indications that you've crossed any boundaries.

Some enemies (particularly humans & ghouls) level with you like in Oblivion, but it's a bit more like Morrowind where some areas are basically suicide for a lower level character. Fallout New Vegas has ample indications that some areas are more dangerous than others, in the form of NPC dialog and environmental clues, perhaps because people complained that hints of that nature were subtle or non-existent in Fallout 3. And deathclaws live up to their name pretty much regardless of your level.

galraen wrote:The facial graphics in this game are noticeably cruder than in Oblivion, which is obviously deliberate; is there a reason for that?

Not really sure. I suppose it might have been to subconsciously reinforce the bleak, eroded, post apocalyptic atmosphere of the game setting, but that seems like a stretch. I'm guessing they were trying to streamline the character generation process, and when they simplified the parameters to customize your character's appearance, maybe that affected NPC facial structures too.

galraen wrote:First impressions are that as I expected from Bethesda the game is a first person shooter, not an RPG. Skill are trivialised, if anything worse than Oblivion. A typical example is lock picking being just a twitch game with no reference to the character's skill apart from deciding if the character can even try.

When it comes to RPGs Bethesda really don't get it do they.

I think that horse is very much beaten to death. Either you let a predetermined system govern how you play out your role in a game, or you act it out yourself in a believable setting. I'm not inclined to favour one type of gameplay over the other. Bethsoft simply favours the latter approach, which isn't a wrong thing in and of itself.

However, the problem with their work so far is that key immersive factors to make that approach 'work' haven't always been up to standard. Fallout 3 was more immersive than Oblivion, but there are still plenty of other games that are more immersive anything Bethsoft has put on the market to date.

So while they may not have made the greatest RPG since D&D, I would like to see them continue trying.

Bethsoft simply favours the latter approach, which isn't a wrong thing in and of itself.

If your selling an action/adventure or FPS game true, but if your selling the game as an RPG then it is wrong.

Fallout 3 is a nice game, but one-time only. There are many locations to visit, but once you scour the earth once, a second playthrough will add nothing new.

BoS is crap. Mutant overlords on highest difficulty take half a dozen point-blank headshots from a shotgun.

Is it an RPG? Somewhat. A shooter with skillset and morality system.

galraen wrote:If your selling an action/adventure or FPS game true, but if your selling the game as an RPG then it is wrong.

Okay I could answer that with a repeat of my last message, but lets just follow up on this quote instead. Fallout 1&2 aren't that different from 3, gameplay wise. Same stat system, almost as many skills. You're trying to tell me those two games are just action games then?

Same deal with Oblivion. If you start categorizing things far and wide enough, you're never going to be satisfied. I think that's a useless thing to be critical about.

Tricky wrote:Okay I could answer that with a repeat of my last message, but lets just follow up on this quote instead. Fallout 1&2 aren't that different from 3, gameplay wise. Same stat system, almost as many skills. You're trying to tell me those two games are just action games then?

Same deal with Oblivion. If you start categorizing things far and wide enough, you're never going to be satisfied. I think that's a useless thing to be critical about.

The impact of skills in F1&2 was a lot bigger. Compare the influence in conversations alone. Also, skills higher than 100 had meaning.
Also, combat differed tons: turn based, completely skill based.

Tricky, IMHO, in RPG games the success or failure of a character's actions should be dependent on the skills of that character, not the twitching ability of the player. Is that so hard to understand? Maybe it's because I'm 60 and my reactions are obviously not as good as the target audience of games that I'm more aware of this. Unfortunately because of the, what I consider, bad design, I have to resort to using the console. I only use it on locks that my character has the skill for, but it really shouldn't be necessary!

PS As for comparing the game to F1 and 2, I can't I never played those games.; but in comparison to Oblivion so far I'm thinking overall this game is better 'out of the box'; although Oblivion did at least give you both options when it came to lock picking.

Gawain, my only point here was to show that there are skills, attribute scores and a certain amount of freedom to use them. If there is fewer usage for skills in Fallout 3, they are still there.
Galrean (I actually confuse your names a lot), I understand that action elements incur a rogue element to RPG gameplay. I don't know what to say there, I did grow up with Doom and all that followed. It has never stopped me from acting out a character the way I wanted.

Give me a lever and a place to rest it, and I will play roles.

Tricky wrote:I did grow up with Doom and all that followed.

Doom and Dark Forces are the two games F3 is reminding me most of up until now. I enjoyed both of those, but I still had reflexes back then!:laugh:


I actually preferred Dark Forces out of the two of them didn't like Hexen and Quake much though; I suspect I'm in a minority with those views.

Gawain, my only point here was to show that there are skills, attribute scores and a certain amount of freedom to use them. If there is fewer usage for skills in Fallout 3, they are still there.

That's to say that volleyball and football are the same, because there's ball, and rules and a field and teams... Same ingredients don't make the same cake.

I don't mind getting confused with Galraen, since he's actually a good poser, so no problem from my side at least.

galraen wrote:IMHO, in RPG games the success or failure of a character's actions should be dependent on the skills of that character, not the twitching ability of the player.

I agree, and I've been thinking about why I dislike some aspects of hybrid action/RPG games and enjoy others, and it's all about immersion.

If I want to test my reflexes & tactical acumen, FPS. Don't bug me with too many puzzles; just point me toward the bad guys. If I fail because my eyes or thumbs were too slow, no problem, that's kind of the point. If you can make the experience more intense with a good storyline and incorporating some RPG elements, great, but not at the expense of slowing down the action.

If I want to be the storyline, RPG. Don't interrupt the narrative flow with arbitrary "twitch" tests. If you can enhance the dramatic tension by incorporating some action elements, great, but not at the expense of the plot. Failing because I made a bad decision or missed a clue is OK, but failing because my eyes or thumbs were too slow spoils the immersion.

I think combat in Fallout (at least FO3 & NV) strikes a good balance by letting you use VATS or not. VATS seems pure RPG; just decide what weapon to aim at whom, and AP, hit chance & damage are totally dependent on my character's stats. Shooting freehand is more dependent on my eyes & thumbs, but my character's skills & perks still influence sway, spread & damage so it feels different than a pure FPS. Conversely, the lockpicking mini game is frustrating because it's entirely based on my "twitch" skill regardless of my character's lockpick skill.

I love the games, they are alot of fun for me. I am not a FPS type of person, so I like the abiity to fall back on VATS, though I can still use my scoped weapon to take out the mobs at a distance.

The major problem I have is the mapping. Vaults in particular are multi leveled and it can be tough trying to figure your way through them at times. I wish you had the ability to peal the levels of the vault away to see what is just on level 2 of your current zone rather than all 3 levels at once.

Money is also an issue. It is just WAY too easy to get money. Sell the items for CAPS... when you run low just go to the raider camp you took out a few days ago, and they are back ready for you to kill them again and sell their gear.

Fallout New Vegas has a better operation system. There are checks for most skills to perform certain actions. For different dialog or action options you will need Science, Lockpick, Repair, Medicine, Demolitions, Stealth, Barter, Speech... probably more but I just can't remember any others.

There is also your faction with certain groups such as NCR, Brotherhood of Steel, Caesar's Legion, Freeside...when you get your faction up high enough you get special benefits... and if you get too high with some, you can lose benefits with others. There is one follower who won't join if you are liked by a certain faction.

There is ALOT of running around for quests, but with the fast travel it isnt real bad.

Well I finished the game tonight, and what a massive anti-climax the finish is! I had fun playing this Doom clone, but I'm not sure if it's worth a replay. Unfortunately it's a game where every character ends up looking identical, or at least they do if you have Brotherhood of Steel installed, there simply aren't enough skills, so by the end you have no choice but to upgrade nearly all of them to 100. I was level 28 at the end,and had I got to level 30 I would have had 100 in all but two skills.

All in all I'd give the game 7/10 as a FPS, but 1/10 as an RPG.

arsiwash wrote: The major problem I have is the mapping. Vaults in particular are multi leveled and it can be tough trying to figure your way through them at times.

Ugh. Trying to navigate the 3-dimensional mazes in vaults & multi-story buildings using a 2-dimensional map can be a serious pain. On a related note, trying to find your way around the DC ruins via the subway tunnels had some novelty value for about the first hour, and then it just got tedious.

galraen wrote:...Unfortunately it's a game where every character ends up looking identical, or at least they do if you have Brotherhood of Steel installed, there simply aren't enough skills, so by the end you have no choice but to upgrade nearly all of them to 100. I was level 28 at the end,and had I got to level 30 I would have had 100 in all but two skills.

If you have 10 INT, take the Educated and Comprehension perks, and find all of the skill books and bobbleheads, it's theoretically possible to max all of your skills by level 14. Which, as you point out, is a bit of a roleplaying buzzkill.

That said, if you ever find New Vegas in the bargain bin you might want to give it a try. As arsiwash pointed out, your character's actions affect the way the story progresses, as well as your reputation with various factions, in a much richer way than the simple karma scale in FO3. Plus skill points are harder to come by, so a hacker nerd, a recon sniper, a brawler and a diplomat don't all end up playing like a cross between James Bond and MacGyver by level 20.

Belthan wrote:That said, if you ever find New Vegas in the bargain bin you might want to give it a try.

I most certainly will, despite it's faults I've really enjoyed F3, a lot more than I enjoyed Oblivion 'out of the box', but not having played previous Fallouts I guess I didn't have any preconceptions about how the game 'should' be.