Sept 11th

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Fri Aug 23, 2002 1:02 pm

okay - time for me to spout a little more cynisme into the general public

I must say that the many deaths in africa and many other parts of the world, I have a hard time to relate to, cause imo many of the pain and suffering in these parts of the world would be easier solved without the corrupt goverments that simply just try to pocket as much foreing aid as possible.

The palenstine and isrealic conlict - while severly tragic, is also imo mostly the result of goverments inablility to seak out peace.
But I bet if either one of the parties flew 2 planes into, say jerusalem and wasted 3000 civilians just to get attention, I think the reaction would be similar.

The IRA and ETA terrorisme, again while tragic, are on a much smaller scale, and all working to free a part of their nation (much as the palenstine) but in that concept much different from the terrorist attack against the "Free World" as an entity, as the attack on WTC was.

I will still mourn WTC more then others because imo it was an attack by mad men on the "Free Western World" so to speak.
Peace and stability in the world.

This stands as the day, imo, when peace suffered its biggest blow, since the Cuba Crisis was at its highest, and certainly since the end of the Cold War. A day when time stood still.

WTC should imo be mourned for excatly that reason, not for the casulties, but as a symbol for the free world to unite against terrorisme.

Gruntboy · Post by **Gruntboy** » Sat Aug 24, 2002 5:58 pm

Oh look, its Gruntboy. I bet you all can't wait for my input.

CM/Fas: I really, really can't believe this topic. If it hadn't already become an area for discussion, I'd ask for it to be deleted for causing me extreme offence. You say you are not trying to cause offence but I have seen little from you in your posts here in the past 11 months except vitriol, calousness and misinformation. I am having trouble forming any kind of cogent response. The only posts I clearly identify with are those of Littiz and Smass. Please bear with me.

Only 3000? Yes but in about 1 hour and under the most horrific and traumatic circumstances. We're not talking about AIDS victims here. What has that got to do with anything? Anyone can get AIDS (there is usually an international AIDS week, BTW), get robbed, get raped. These thing don't discriminate. The terrorists did - they discriminated in the most cruelly imaginative way.

A lot of you seem to have this whole national identity mix up going on. Weep for the Rwandans and I'll weep for the WTC? What is that all about? Are you really saying this? Is it possible to make that kind of trade? Despite what some of you may think, I have a heart. The world has always been a sick place, but when you place pre-conditions on condemnation you can keep them to yourselves. I don't like what I read about in today's world, but that day broke my heart.

So, you spend Sept. 11th however you feel you must. No one is forcing you (one of the benefits of being free) to mourn - no one is slamming jet-liners into your buildings to make you pay attention. Celebrate if you want to. I know I will be unable to do much and would rather weep alone than have any false tears from others that day.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat Aug 24, 2002 8:18 pm

While some posters have very strong feelings regarding 9/11, let's all please remember that everybody's entitled to an opinion. Please keep the level of accusatory rhetoric down. If you feel that anyone has overstepped the bounds of good taste or acceptable license, let the mods know. Thanks.

frogus · Post by **frogus** » Sat Aug 24, 2002 8:25 pm

I will not decide to mourn for somebody because they were born in the same country as me, nor will I refuse to mourn for foreigners. Let's think for ourselves please.

Ode to a Grasshopper · Sun Aug 25, 2002 4:55 am

A few things. First of all, so far I agree most of all with what Silur has said in this thread, and I shan't recap it all because it's all here, and a lot to summarise.
Though Frogus raises the good point of think for yourselves how to behave when the 11th September 2002 rolls around.
Second of all, kudos to Fable and the mods for not getting involved in this thread overmuch, when doubtless they all have contributions they would like to make, and indeed would probably be highly informative.
Thank you for your professionalism, @the Mod squad.

Also, I would like to point out that it is the diversity of opinion that makes this world such an interesting place to live in, even if it means there are fanatics (be they religious, irreligious, communist, capitalist or whatnot.) My thanks to all those who have expressed their opinions here, and especially those who have done so whilst respecting other peoples' opinions, though they may disagree with them.

That is all I shall say, in part as I do not harbor strong feelings on the subject of 9/11.

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Sun Aug 25, 2002 5:36 am

Yesterday the whole England has stopped for a minute, in
remembrance of the two little girls killed...
Was that an injustice, towards other people killed elsewhere
in the world in these days?
Of course not.
We NEED this kind of manifestations.
We need them to remember that we aren't only numbers,
each one has an universe inside (a growing universe in case of
kids...)
We need such moments to feel human again.

For me, 11/9 will be the same.
Of course those 3000 weren't the first to die of violent death.
But think of the days before this happened...
We all knew (more or less) that the problem existed, but
no one could imagine that hate could rise to such levels.
A LARGE group of people willing to die in order to kill as
much innocents as possible, just to promote their ideas, whatever
they are...
(And in their turn they were used as puppets by some sort of
leaders, who obviously are always concealed and have a great
care for their own lives...)
Will we stop and consider such problems, or will we just classify
this episode as another input for statistics??

Some of the comments I read here have a little saddened me,
AND surprised me.
I thought ALL were emotionally hit by the event.
I still remember people doing party in the streets...

Ode to a Grasshopper · Sun Aug 25, 2002 6:43 am

Out of curiousity, was there anyone on GB who believed/believes that 9/11 was set-up by the one group or another (usually the government)?

Sorry about going slightly off-topic, but I'm curious as to this.

Edited as per Xandax's request.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Sun Aug 25, 2002 6:59 am

editted out.

Ode to a Grasshopper · Sun Aug 25, 2002 7:03 am

Whilst (imo) you seem to be overreacting quite a bit, I'll edit it, but I'm still curious as to whether anyone believed the 9/11 conspiracy theory, and figured a thread devoted to 9/11 was the best place to post it.
EDIT-Done. Better?

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Sun Aug 25, 2002 8:29 am

Originally posted by Littiz
Yesterday the whole England has stopped for a minute, in
remembrance of the two little girls killed...
Was that an injustice, towards other people killed elsewhere
in the world in these days?
Of course not.
We NEED this kind of manifestations.
We need them to remember that we aren't only numbers,
each one has an universe inside (a growing universe in case of
kids...)
We need such moments to feel human again.

Agree wholeheartedly. While the numbers killed Sep. 11 may not have been so great as those killed elsewhere (what a callous world we've become, if we can say, "Oh, it's only a couple thousand..."), these people's lives were ended abruptly, in a horrible manner. I feel continued empathy for the children whose lives were torn apart.

Gruntboy · Post by **Gruntboy** » Sun Aug 25, 2002 12:14 pm

@scayde, I don't recall specifically referring to your points, or talking about a military attack - which it certainly was not.

I know that feeling of violation. I fear this attack has left such a grievous wound to my heart, I won't ever recover. And when people have the audacity to speak of conspiracy and such like, its clear to me.

They don't understand. They won't ever understand. I won't waste my breath.

I am not American. Perhaps some day.

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » Tue Aug 27, 2002 5:19 pm

Sigh. Here we go again ...

@CM: I truly do not know what you hoped to accomplish with this thread. Personally, I have to think that anyone who intentionally writes that 3,000 deaths is “no big deal” must have something other than intellectual debate in mind.

I agree with Weasel: the US will have a day of mourning, but we have neither the power nor desire to enforce some kind of day of mourning around the world. However, if other nations, such as Britain, which lost many nationals on 9/11, wish to hold any kind of service, I do not believe that it should be considered hypocritical in any way.

Also, I frankly DO find a difference in the issues of death brought up as counterpoints to the 9/11 terrorist strike. AIDS? How is this in any way similar to 9/11? Just because innocent people die? At least in the case of AIDS, no one is questioning the moral right of people to exterminate the virus. Unfortunately, in the case of terrorism, people seem to be getting very caught up in just what constitutes terrorism, and what kind of retaliation is appropriate. I see no real similarity here. Rwanda? It was a civil war, AFAIK. One segment of the population rose up against the other and went about hacking their neighbors and throwing them in the river. Civilians were ruthlessly slaughtered in this case, as in 9/11, but there the similarities end. Al Queda is an international organization with the stated goal of destroying the US (among other terrible things). It has every intention of obtaining weapons of mass destruction and using them. THIS, if nothing else, makes it worth our time to take a moment and remember that this organization still exists and continues to operate. Littiz had a wonderful point:

Originally posted by Littiz
But, ok, let's go for the "politically correct" and ignore the problems … We'll know when the problems will finally find us.

Yep. We can sit back and not try to lay blame or look for culprits. We can forget or put our energy into other things. But this problem will come back if we dare to forget it. So I would urge all nations to in fact think about this on the next 9/11. And, think on this if you think that 9/11 is just an issue for the US to grapple with: by Bin Laden’s standards, probably 98% of the people on this planet are nothing more than infidels deserving of a fiery hell like the WTC.

So much for that issue. The debate then turns to this whole third world issue, which I cannot refrain from comment on. Everyone here (except maybe Nippy) seems to be of the opinion that 1) the US represses third world nations; 2) the US owes third world nations money and aid. The first of these assertions is dubious; the second sickening. I owe Africa, South America, China, South-east Asia – and any other so-called developing area – nothing. Not one red cent. Not one iota of aid or monetary remuneration. If YOU as an individual and free citizen of the world wish to give money to the poor of this world, I encourage you to do so. But you have NO RIGHT to tell me that I am somehow obligated to do the same. If you tell me I owe my money to some stranger in another land, you have made me a slave to that stranger, and I reject slavery of any kind – whether its foundation is some atrocious form of racism, or some equally horrendous form of egalitarianism.

VoodooDali · Post by **VoodooDali** » Tue Aug 27, 2002 8:58 pm

Originally posted by Ode to a Grasshopper
Out of curiousity, was there anyone on GB who believed/believes that 9/11 was set-up by the one group or another (usually the government)?

Sorry about going slightly off-topic, but I'm curious as to this.

Edited as per Xandax's request.

Hiya Ode.
I have a son-in-law who totally believes in conspiracies, aliens, ufo's, etc. He occasionally sends me stuff on 9/11 from these crazy websites he reads every day on 9/11 conspiracy's. I tend to tune it out. I don't know what his latest theory is, but I do know that he believes that 9/11 and the recent flurry of abductions of girls --that the government was behind all of it. And the aliens are controlling the government. Sheesh. You can't argue with the guy, because if you ask him why, with all the reports of ufo's and alien abductions, there is not one shred of physical evidence, of something alien, he will tell you that those people are removed by the government and the objects are detroyed immediately.

Since I have to look the NYC skyline everyday, I'm sure hoping they build something cool over there. The recent proposals were just boring office buildings. Everyone here hated them. I wish we could have the architect Frank Gehry design something (he did the Guggenheim in Bilbao, Spain).

I'm not looking real forward to the anniversary. I witnessed the towers falling down, and I don't know how I'm going to feel. I tend to change the channel when I see 9/11 related stuff on TV, and to just not think about it, usually. But obviously that will be impossible on 9/11.

Gwalchmai · Post by **Gwalchmai** » Tue Aug 27, 2002 10:55 pm

Originally posted by VoodooDali
I'm not looking real forward to the anniversary. I witnessed the towers falling down, and I don't know how I'm going to feel. I tend to change the channel when I see 9/11 related stuff on TV, and to just not think about it, usually. But obviously that will be impossible on 9/11.

I sort of feel the same way. It seems like everytime I turn on the radio (NPR) they are doing some story about the 9/11 anniversary. I sort of feel that its like we're picking at the scab and not really letting it heal. This coming September 11th will certainly be the worst. I'll be volunteering for Habitat for Humanity that day.

Ode to a Grasshopper · Wed Aug 28, 2002 12:13 am

Originally posted by VoodooDali

Hiya Ode.
I have a son-in-law who totally believes in conspiracies, aliens, ufo's, etc. He occasionally sends me stuff on 9/11 from these crazy websites he reads every day on 9/11 conspiracy's. I tend to tune it out. I don't know what his latest theory is, but I do know that he believes that 9/11 and the recent flurry of abductions of girls --that the government was behind all of it. And the aliens are controlling the government. Sheesh. You can't argue with the guy, because if you ask him why, with all the reports of ufo's and alien abductions, there is not one shred of physical evidence, of something alien, he will tell you that those people are removed by the government and the objects are detroyed immediately.

Since I have to look the NYC skyline everyday, I'm sure hoping they build something cool over there. The recent proposals were just boring office buildings. Everyone here hated them. I wish we could have the architect Frank Gehry design something (he did the Guggenheim in Bilbao, Spain).

Heya VooD, nice to see you again. Ta for answering my question (I'm assuming that's a no, that no-one on GB believed the conspiracy theories).

Last I heard there were plans to build another tower (Tamerlane posted a thread on the proposed 2nd WTC a while back), I take it that's changed now?

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Wed Aug 28, 2002 3:21 am

Re: Sigh. Here we go again ...

Originally posted by Lazarus
And, think on this if you think that 9/11 is just an issue for the US to grapple with: by Bin Laden’s standards, probably 98% of the people on this planet are nothing more than infidels deserving of a fiery hell like the WTC.

The Western World anyway - judging by the extremist web sites.

Originally posted by Lazarus
So much for that issue. The debate then turns to this whole third world issue, which I cannot refrain from comment on. Everyone here (except maybe Nippy) seems to be of the opinion that 1) the US represses third world nations; 2) the US owes third world nations money and aid. The first of these assertions is dubious; the second sickening. I owe Africa, South America, China, South-east Asia – and any other so-called developing area – nothing. Not one red cent. Not one iota of aid or monetary remuneration. If YOU as an individual and free citizen of the world wish to give money to the poor of this world, I encourage you to do so. But you have NO RIGHT to tell me that I am somehow obligated to do the same. If you tell me I owe my money to some stranger in another land, you have made me a slave to that stranger, and I reject slavery of any kind – whether its foundation is some atrocious form of racism, or some equally horrendous form of egalitarianism.

American people, as a whole, are generous and do contribute extensively to charities benefiting various countries. However, I'm getting really peeved at this notion that we owe people something - we don't. We are not the root cause of poverty - war, corrupt governments, and very bad mismanagement of resources are. I'm also sick of this notion that most Americans own multiple cars, live in mansions, blea, blea, blea. Utter nonsense - we have a bad poverty situation rising in our own country which we need to solve, and fast. We need the funds at home.

VoodooDali · Post by **VoodooDali** » Wed Aug 28, 2002 12:59 pm

Originally posted by Ode to a Grasshopper
Heya VooD, nice to see you again. Ta for answering my question (I'm assuming that's a no, that no-one on GB believed the conspiracy theories).

Last I heard there were plans to build another tower (Tamerlane posted a thread on the proposed 2nd WTC a while back), I take it that's changed now?

Thanx Ode.

Nope - no plans have been approved for buildling anything. Another tower has never been a serious contender, as far as I know. NYC had a big meeting of the economic development folks, the victim's families, developers, etc., and nobody liked the plans they saw. They were incredibly boring - just a couple of regular old office skyscrapers, and some BS like reflecting pools on the WTC footprints. Everyone (and I mean everyone) hated the plans. So they are back to square one. The problem is that the victims want a memorial, people who live in the area want a memorial plus a really cool addition to the skyline, and the greedy developers who own the lease to the WTC want office buildings they can make money off of. The last and best solution I heard about was for NYC to buy the lease off of the real estate guy who owns it - then the city will be free to build whatever it wants there. I really believe that they have to have some phenomenal architect like Gehry or the guy who designed the Sidney Opera house to build something there that will take people's breath away. It depresses the hell out of me and everyone else here to be unable to differentiate the Manhattan skyline from downtown Jersey City. It's esp. apparent to me here since I'm located directly across from where the WTC stood (approx. 5 miles away).

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Aug 28, 2002 2:00 pm

Everyone here (except maybe Nippy) seems to be of the opinion that 1) the US represses third world nations; 2) the US owes third world nations money and aid. The first of these assertions is dubious; the second sickening.

@Lazarus, you are welcome to make whatever personal assertions prior to statement you want about your own opinions, within the scope allowed by Buck's rules, that is. After all, you already know your own opinions. But please don't make any assumptions regarding the opinions of other members here on the board, especially as a group, and especially when you state them in such a dumbed-down, straw-man fashion. It's demeaning and really close to flaming.

I would also urge everybody, here, who has taken part in this debate, to step back and decide before you add another comment what you stand to gain by vehemently criticizing the opposing POV taken by a friend.

RandomThug · Post by **RandomThug** » Wed Aug 28, 2002 2:20 pm

@Gruntboy

Your post has proven to me that you sir are a good man with a fair heart and good insight on life.

I'll consider you an American anyday for if you weep with me you sir will be my brother. To others who feel this is a little over done, your wrong.

Grunt boy you are a gentleman, schoalor, and a good judge of bad whiskey.

Thug

Ode to a Grasshopper · Thu Aug 29, 2002 1:30 am

Originally posted by VoodooDali

Thanx Ode.

Nope - no plans have been approved for buildling anything. Another tower has never been a serious contender, as far as I know. NYC had a big meeting of the economic development folks, the victim's families, developers, etc., and nobody liked the plans they saw. They were incredibly boring - just a couple of regular old office skyscrapers, and some BS like reflecting pools on the WTC footprints. Everyone (and I mean everyone) hated the plans. So they are back to square one. The problem is that the victims want a memorial, people who live in the area want a memorial plus a really cool addition to the skyline, and the greedy developers who own the lease to the WTC want office buildings they can make money off of. The last and best solution I heard about was for NYC to buy the lease off of the real estate guy who owns it - then the city will be free to build whatever it wants there. I really believe that they have to have some phenomenal architect like Gehry or the guy who designed the Sidney Opera house to build something there that will take people's breath away. It depresses the hell out of me and everyone else here to be unable to differentiate the Manhattan skyline from downtown Jersey City. It's esp. apparent to me here since I'm located directly across from where the WTC stood (approx. 5 miles away).

Personally, I think making it into a memorial park or something like that would be quite a nice option, myself, though as you point out the skyline would be unchanged.