Fighter vs. Mage

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Tue Nov 05, 2002 2:51 pm

Well, from a roleplaying perspective, mages can do it as well

just cast invisibility, then buffs which don't break invisibility,
or whatever.
Or send ahead a concealed Project Image and have fun

garazdawi · Post by **garazdawi** » Tue Nov 05, 2002 3:02 pm

Originally posted by Littiz
Well, from a roleplaying perspective, mages can do it as well

just cast invisibility, then buffs which don't break invisibility,
or whatever.
Or send ahead a concealed Project Image and have fun

so 24/7 this mage has a image projected of him that scouts teh area, when all is clearthe real mage protected with imp inv and spell immunity abjuration moves along and sneaks past the thief. That's a pretty slow way to travel if u ask me.

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Wed Nov 06, 2002 3:01 am

Wait.
I was assuming initially that the two parties met normally.

But if you assume that the thieves go ahead always sneaking by the wall,
then a mage can cast invisibility, that lasts a full day.
It's even easier.

When he scoouts our poor thieves, he has only to decide how to kill
them (or spare them

)

Koveras · Post by **Koveras** » Wed Nov 06, 2002 6:52 pm

I think stoneskin is supposed to be cast way before a battle. Why else would the duration be 12 hours?

garazdawi · Post by **garazdawi** » Thu Nov 07, 2002 9:41 am

Originally posted by Littiz
Wait.
I was assuming initially that the two parties met normally.

My mistake I got carried away, it happens sometimes

But if you assume that the thieves go ahead always sneaking by the wall,
then a mage can cast invisibility, that lasts a full day.
It's even easier.

When he scoouts our poor thieves, he has only to decide how to kill
them (or spare them )

This is good if u are alone in your party but other party members are kinda getting behind. Besides what if you met an inquisitor.... You'd mage toast before the first round ends....wel maybe not bt you won't be able to stay invisible....

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Fri Nov 08, 2002 3:10 am

This is good if u are alone in your party but other party members are kinda getting behind

Weren't we talking about a mage party vs thieves party?
Poor thieves, again

Besides what if you met an inquisitor.... You'd mage toast before the first round ends....wel maybe not bt you won't be able to stay invisible....

Spell Immunity: Divination
Or just Staff of the Magi

There was a whole thread a while ago, a challenge to kill a 34th level (or so)
Keldorn, fully equipped with the best items in the game (including the cloak
of cheese), and HLAs... with a crappy LOW level, unequipped mage.
I admit, I failed to find a totally safe strategy for a mage under
level 18... I also misjuged the spell Non-Detection
(it *does* prevent True Sight to work, but only in conjunction with SotM!!!!
I didn't know at the time!)
But at the same level, or with comparable equipment... poor Keldorn!!
ehehe just think about imprisonment (no save, bypasses MR...)

Thinking about it, a naked 18th level mage can still beat uber-uber-cheesy
Keldorn:
Contingency: Enemy sighted, Lower Resistance
Chain Cont.: Enemy sighted, Lower Resistance x2, Bigby's Clenched Fist
Now, as soon as you spot him, he's paralyzed, no save, for one round!
Go and calmly Imprison him!!!!

Of course a cheesy mage could always use Endless Spells for inquisitors..
just go for the safe version with just one simmie (undispellable clone,
casting from scrolls uninterruptable)

Eheheh love mages
Tashia's words need quoting:
"Live by the sword... get toasted by a well prepared mage!!"

EDIT:
My bad, inquisitors are immune to hold...
So I'd change Bigby with Maze, and prepare freely while he's away

UserUnfriendly · Post by **UserUnfriendly** » Fri Nov 08, 2002 6:38 pm

"Thinking about it, a naked 18th level mage can still beat uber-uber-cheesy
Keldorn:
Contingency: Enemy sighted, Lower Resistance "

contingency targets yourself only, so spells like mally that targets enemies only or remove magic are good, but contingency lower will lower your resistance...

did you know web works on inquisitors? with a mally, even hold immune characters get webbed...only free action spell and ring from spell hold makes you web immune...

shocked the heck out of me when i tested it...

but a web spray will hold keldy and allow you to toss in a inc cloud..hehehhehehhe....

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Sat Nov 09, 2002 3:20 am

User, you're right!!!

So we have to do with Chain alone... (oh, there are also triggers,
sequencers..

)
the problem is that the Keldorn challenge (arena-like), IIRC, supposed
to have a higly cheesy Keldorn with high MR...
But Carsomyr sets MR to 50%, it's not additive (and it sets it so again
after every blow!), there was no real reason to accept his high MR

And he had even the cloak of cheese!!

Bruce Lee · Post by **Bruce Lee** » Sat Nov 09, 2002 6:32 am

What do you mean it sets it after every blow? I know that if you re-equip it it sets it at 50%, but it all depends on which order you get dressed

I am thinking, since Carsomyr sets MR at 50%... if you lower Keldorns resistance can he then re-equip Carsomyr and have it back up at 50% again?
Btw Littiz, I have just rolled up a kensai/mage. Or a human kensai with GM in Katana to be precise. I was thinking of dualling at level 15 but that might be to late... what do you think? What level do you dual at and why? Are you mostly a buffed fighter or a beefed up mage?

garazdawi · Post by **garazdawi** » Sat Nov 09, 2002 12:32 pm

Originally posted by Bruce Lee
What do you mean it sets it after every blow? I know that if you re-equip it it sets it at 50%, but it all depends on which order you get dressed
I am thinking, since Carsomyr sets MR at 50%... if you lower Keldorns resistance can he then re-equip Carsomyr and have it back up at 50% again?
Btw Littiz, I have just rolled up a kensai/mage. Or a human kensai with GM in Katana to be precise. I was thinking of dualling at level 15 but that might be to late... what do you think? What level do you dual at and why? Are you mostly a buffed fighter or a beefed up mage?

I would suggest dualling at level 10 if u don't have TOB if u do have TOB dual at lvl 13

Bruce Lee · Post by **Bruce Lee** » Sat Nov 09, 2002 5:12 pm

I can understand level 13, but why level 10? I have ToB so I want to get a decent thac0 before dualling but I dont want to spend to much time waiting for the kensai to reactivate. I am now level 12 and thinking about dualling. Level 13 would mean that I need to get to 1.5 million XP as a mage before getting my kensai back. Too long?
Dual at level 9 means that you reactivate almost straight out of the dungeon since you only need 250 000 to get to level 10 mage but I thought I needed better fighting skills. The main advanyage that a kensai has over other fighter-classes is the bonus to weapon speed, meaning that you will in many cases kill the enemy before they even strike at you. Kensais get a bonus every four levels so they get their third one at level 12 along with their thac0 and damage bonus. On the other hand fighters get big bonuses at level 13... hmm tough decision.

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Sun Nov 10, 2002 3:36 am

Every time you strike MR from Carsomyr is resetted, I tested for Xyx,
with a PC paladin.
The matter is complicated, 'cause some effects *do* stack always with
Carsomyr: AFAIK, those are all the additive effects placed
directly upon the character (as MR from hell).
While those granted by items, need re-equip and are soon lost again.
Lower Resistance is a (timed) effect placed directly on the character,
so you can't avoid it by simply re-equipping.
I hope this is not too criptic...

Unless you solo, 15 is very high... I go for level 12, but that's because
I use the Grand Mastery patch, and level 13 would add even more attacks...
So, dual-wielding I reach "only" 4 attacks/round, while at level 13th
I'd reach 9/2... Without the patch is different? Nah, 12 is enough

Are you mostly a buffed fighter or a beefed up mage?

Actually, none and both

The whole point of the character, imho, is to decide on the fly!

You go normally with nothing but your swords (now, that's stylish!),
no armors, helmets.. so NO spells, either!
But you can quick-cast at need the right one.
You cast more when something allows you to: scouting, or well
placed defensive contingencies that give you a safe time-window to cast, say,
a time stop: then go for buffs, or tactical, or damaging spells.
I remember a glorious, long mage-mage battle against the last Irenicus added
in Ascension.. the smartest of all!!

I tried to build up a char who could be a credible, always surviving
Bhaalspawn, and not thanx to the above_quest_level_spell "Reload"!

I explained in details in an old thread, I can search for it if you want...
Anyway I'm no more completely satisfied by that spell-chart:
my next kensimage (for RtW

) will be even more defensive!
Then some spells are used too rarely, while Teleport Field has to enter
somehow (probably in the Sequencer

) Maze too...
Hope I've been helpful or inspiring!

garazdawi · Post by **garazdawi** » Sun Nov 10, 2002 5:02 am

Originally posted by Bruce Lee
I can understand level 13, but why level 10?

Sorry i mean lvl 9, my minds playin a game with me again so..9

UserUnfriendly · Post by **UserUnfriendly** » Sun Nov 10, 2002 6:05 am

really depends on how you started....i started with a sorc, and have only discovered the joys of slash and hack with bun bun...definately not a typical character...hehehhehe.....seriously, though, if your preferred fantasy role is fighter, you start thinking fighter...but i always went for mage, and preferred to finess my way to victory...or cheat like crazy to make impossibly strong pcs....

hehhehehe

will update bun bun later, after monday, with new wizslayer kensai sorc, most of immunites dropped, but 90% resistant to magic, will also do for jae a wildmage cleric/druid kensai wizslayer version...

and cause the flirt packs are out...bun bun is going to be a tramp, will romance everyone allowed...even anoweenie...ick...

Bruce Lee · Post by **Bruce Lee** » Sun Nov 10, 2002 8:08 am

I went for level 12 and have just regained my kensai abilities. Good thing I didn't wait till level 13 because it was tedious going around trying to gain the experience needed.
I see what you mean Littiz about being able to handle whatever comes your way and I feel the same way. Right now I am soloing but will soon set after Imoen.
I just did the druid grove quest and I do believe that the kensais main advantage is the bonus to weapon speed. I seem to be able to connect with three attacks before the enemy gets one off and they rarely do because then they are dead. Ofcourse having the thac= of a level 16 fighter at level 12 is also very nice

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Mon Nov 11, 2002 3:07 am

If you use katanas, they have a speed factor of 4.
So a +4 magic katana has already speed 0.
I fear in this case the kensai speed bonus is wasted, unless the initiative
roll accepts even negative modifiers....

Someone knows how it's implemented?

Bruce Lee · Post by **Bruce Lee** » Mon Nov 11, 2002 10:43 am

Aha you might be right... I just tested with a normal katana...kensai vs fighter. I have to test again then I guess.

Durwyn · Post by **Durwyn** » Tue Dec 03, 2002 6:27 pm

People are asking why from a roleplaying standpoint, why a mage would have a stoneskin up always? Because if the mage is adventuring, their expecting trouble, and the stoneskin is up so when they meet that trouble their not mince meat.

Commoner · Post by **Commoner** » Wed Jan 01, 2003 1:44 am

In my opinion, an ideal party is 6 kensai/mages or 6 sorcerers or 6 inquisitors, depending on what party you're facing. In fact, there is no freaking ideal party. But, some parties are better than others, and I have to agree with this one dude's standpoint (I'm too old for quoting or looking up usernames) that the object of the game is to beat the game. If it's too easy, get some mods. If it's still too easy, cease all your illicit-yet-not-quite-outlawed-yet methods (yes, you all know what I'm talking about). Exploiting bugs is a very dishonorable thing (I can't handle the honor). Well anyways, back to the main question:

Fighter VS Mage

Yes, yes... The eternal question. As the game isn't at all based on a single character, we should rather look at party-to-party battles rather than man-to-man battles; say, a party with two mages versus a party with 4 mages. First of all, there is no way the mages can survive upon encounter (half-dozen Abi Dalzim's Horrid Wiltings, or more exciting yet, Dragon's Breath festival). Therefore fighter-heavy wins (bwahahahaha). Two fighters versus 4... who's more likely to win?

But then again, there are good chances that all the fighters are dead. Whatever's happened, it's BAD NEWS! But then again, magic resistance and protection spells should be put into consideration. Time stop and improved alacrity (am I the only one that doesn't abbreviate spell names now?) should be taken into account, too. Basically, the decisive factor in the battles is who casts time stop faster? Because once time stop is cast, you're done, son. Number of mages are completely peripheral to the outcome of the battle, because no matter what, the mages are going to die in one time stop. But then again, I've been hearing about characters immune to time stop... how is this so? Characters having 25 wisdom are immune to time stop. But as there is no way to attain 25 wisdom using 'conventional ways," the method is forfeit in the eyes of a hardcore RP.

Therefore, it is the quality that counts, not the quantity (I was hoping that would be kind of backwards, but that is my conclusion). So yes, my final conclusion is that one sorcerer can defeat any party, if given time to cast time stop firsthand (is it just me, or does that phrase sound funny?)

Happy New Year!

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Fighter vs. Mage

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