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Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 12:38 am
by Tamerlane
@Chan.

I've had the freedom to see the inside of a submarine before, beyond the standard touristy type tours on the decomissioned ones and the dormitory stations are a tad small for my liking.

@HLD.

Thanks for the info, I never knew that women were still excluded from doing service on a submarine. However the Virginia Class subs will change all that. I've heard that the old hawks weren't too impressed that extra money was/is being spent to alter the subs but I think its good for the American Navy in general. I'm not sure what extent the navy will take to alter the subs from the previous ones but a US sub should be docking into our military port anytime now, so I'll try to ask around :D

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 2:26 am
by Littiz
Originally posted by Scayde
I am curious if the strong prevalence in this country for men to play guitar or drums, and women to play piano or violin have more to do with a cultural bias when parents are choosing an instrument for their child.

No, Scayde, education is not an issue, IMHO.
My parents wanted for me the "classical education", and forced me to study piano when I was 6.
And kept forcing me 'till I was 10. Then at last, they gave up.

A few years later, I started playing drums, heavy metal drums, go figure!
My hands are filled with corns (I have a fantastic touch on the snare, they say :D :p ),
my feet sustain the combined speed of 720 shots/minute and more.
I, personally or in video, have never seen a female drummer doing anything like that.
They're simply not interested in working for it, I believe.
They generally prefer to sing, play other instruments, or drums, but the "light" way.
(well, maybe one day, if I have a daughter.... :D )

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 3:02 am
by Minerva
Originally posted by Littiz
I, personally or in video, have never seen a female drummer doing anything like that.
They're simply not interested in working for it, I believe.
They generally prefer to sing, play other instruments, or drums, but the "light" way.


I have. My friend actually broke her drum sticks a couple of times. That was when we were highschool students.

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 3:28 am
by Mr Sleep
Re: And here comes Weasel to spoil the fun..
Originally posted by Weasel
My mother explained to me once how her height was taken into account at a job interview. Being 5ft 3in. tall she missed the cut off point of 5ft 4in. (This would be..30 something years ago). Was she giving a chance to show she could do the job? Nope. The height ended the interview on the spot.


It was a primitive time for basketball players everywhere.

A Joke I saw on the Micaleff Programme, I'm thinking it's only Tam who knows what I'm talking about but anyway they set up this rather amusing sketch, the gist of it is "Depending on the attractiveness of the person one can see how long the door will stay open, sometimes depending on the attractiveness of the person it can be a full 20 metres" something like that anyway, very good at illustrating behavioural habits.

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 4:45 am
by Littiz
Originally posted by Minerva
I have. My friend actually broke her drum sticks a couple of times. That was when we were highschool students.

Well, one thing it's to play with violence, one thing to play fast.
Either she was adding arm strenght to the shots (while only the wrists should be involved),
or the sticks were overused :p

What I mean is, it took me 10 years to reach (and be able to sustain) certain speeds, expecially with the feet.
Those are extremely long to train.
Of course I didn't say it's impossible, only unlikely, in my experience, for a girl to do it ;)
In truth once I saw a girl using the double bass drum technique, but she's wasn't fast at all,
she could do only a few short duration, slow passages.

I'm interested, if you say she was capable to hold those speeds with the double bass drum, it would be the first
report ever of a female doing that, for me.
Highschool... she'd have to have started as a child, I suppose?

(No, I don't rate fastness as a measure for good-playing, BTW. I'm only pointing out a difference in attitude)

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 5:16 am
by Minerva
She's from a family which is a master of Japanese traditional festival music for generations. So, she started really early, though not drums. We were in concert band together, me playing the alto saxophon and her percussion (that includes anything hittable... drums, xylophone which got dents on the surface now, timpany etc). We played anything from classical music to pops to jazz.

You need to go to Japan for to see the school's concert band (or symphonic band, wind orchestra), especially the top level contests. The level is so high, and you wouldn't believe it until you see it yourself. And there's no gender difference in there, as there are many boys play flute or clarinet, and girls can play trombone, tuba or whatever.

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 5:57 am
by Littiz
I see, I'm always very envious of ecleptic musicians.
Something I lack :( :(

But my point remains untested: I'm not surprised by a girl who plays something at high levels,
yet I'd be surprised to see a couple of specific things.
The genres you spoke about (classical, pop, jazz) make NO USE AT ALL of the double bass drums.
And I have a very hard time imagining a girl who uses them at top level, or uses them in the first place.
Hey, my first teacher, a professionist jazz musician, did never use them.
The level is so high, and you wouldn't believe it until you see it yourself.
many said this relating to my band, too :cool:
Sorry I couldn't resist, I had two concerts two days ago :p
Sorry :p sorry :p

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 6:46 am
by Tamerlane
Re: Re: And here comes Weasel to spoil the fun..
Originally posted by Mr Sleep
A Joke I saw on the Micaleff Programme, I'm thinking it's only Tam who knows what I'm talking about but anyway they set up this rather amusing sketch, the gist of it is "Depending on the attractiveness of the person one can see how long the door will stay open, sometimes depending on the attractiveness of the person it can be a full 20 metres" something like that anyway, very good at illustrating behavioural habits.


You guys get that show over there, how strange :D Shaun Micaleff has gone on to other projects which are pretty good although he can still produce the odd horrible show now and again.

@Littiz. I know of a few girls who can drum awfully well, not as good as our drummer but that could be because there's very little appeal for them to get all sweaty and tired and the injuries that can be sustained could also be a big factor. Mind you I'd kill for a decent female singer, can't stand the low tones that us males have to put up with...

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 7:36 am
by Minerva
Originally posted by Littiz
The genres you spoke about (classical, pop, jazz) make NO USE AT ALL of the double bass drums.
And I have a very hard time imagining a girl who uses them at top level, or uses them in the first place.
Hey, my first teacher, a professionist jazz musician, did never use them.


I have said "anything from", haven't I? :p You really need to see it.

Anyway, it's got nothing to do with feminism. I don't believe in musical talent got anything to do with gender in the first place. Tenor has to be male and soprano has to be female, but it doesn't mean one is better than the other, does it?

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 8:15 am
by Weasel
Re: Re: And here comes Weasel to spoil the fun..
Originally posted by Mr Sleep
It was a primitive time for basketball players everywhere.



I will have to ask her if the Sewing Factory had a basketball team.

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 8:49 am
by Littiz
@Minerva:
We played anything from classical music to pops to jazz.
Heavy Metal, Prog Metal or Power Metal are not included between those :p
So answer to this direct question: does this friend of yours play with double bass drums?
I think the top speed with the pedals has been reached by many famous drummers (Dave Lombardo,
Virgil Donati, ecc), something like 840-880 shots/minute, 420-440 shots/minute for *each* foot.
And I'm talking about controlled shots, strong enough to perfectly alternate both pedals.
I'm convinced no woman ever reached that, until opposite evidence shows up

But this has nothing to do with musical talent (as you stated), only with testosterone,
which was my point from the start
:D ;)
(it has even little do to with music, I admit, that's why I stopped such kind of physical trainings
a good while ago ;) )

Oh, this all reminds me the girl I love plays piano...
*sigh*
:(
:(

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 8:51 pm
by Chanak
@Littiz: Don't waste your breath, LOL. Trying to explain gender-related differences to a hostile audience is about as fruitful as trying find feathers on a horse, my good man. You got your point across though. ;) :cool:

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 9:27 pm
by dragon wench
Originally posted by Minerva
And there's no gender difference in there, as there are many boys play flute or clarinet, and girls can play trombone, tuba or whatever.


Hmmm... that is interesting... I have spent quite a lot of time in Japan and the one thing I always noticed is just how segregated the genders tend to be....

Does this division break down in music, then?

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 9:40 pm
by fable
Originally posted by dragon wench
Hmmm... that is interesting... I have spent quite a lot of time in Japan and the one thing I always noticed is just how segregated the genders tend to be....

Does this division break down in music, then?


Certainly the Japanese have produced superlative classical musicians of both genders, on the piano and violin. I can't say if any of them have ever played double bass drums, though. You might want to take a trip to Japan just to find out. ;)

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 9:47 pm
by The Z
Originally posted by Tom
How do you feel about feminism?

Do you think the balance have now swung too far and that the emphasis ought to be on men’s rights?

Why do you think that feminism has a bad name?


1) Yes, women deserve equal opportunity/equal rights, so feminism is ok.

2) Not in every way. However in some ways women can get away with certain crimes or exploit certain things in court (claiming rape and man has no proof that he didn't), since it is sometimes believed that women would not lie about such a thing (this is not the case all the time).

3) Because the connotation with feminism is often someone who is extreme in their methods when they are actually not.

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 10:34 pm
by Chanak
@DW: Having lived in Okinawa in the past, I noticed a similar phenomenon there as well.

In earlier posts I discussed the status of the genders in the military, and efforts the Department of the Army has undertaken to introduce females into what is known as the "regular" Army. Perhaps most do not know that in order to do this in a manner which would meet quotas officials on high set for them to meet, the military had to change existing basic physical standards in order to allow more females entrance into the Armed Forces. These standards were changed, however, only in the case of female soldiers. They were not changed for a male soldier.

One form this standard takes: the PT test, or Physical Fitness Test, administered twice yearly to all soldiers in the military. The exact form of the test varies from branch to branch; since I was in the Army, I will deal with the Army's test here, specifically. Failure of this test can result in the discharge of the offending soldier.

The following link will take you to the website of "Army" magazine, a publication maintained by a group of retired Army soldiers, the "Association of the U.S. Army", or AUSA. The page I link to puts you in the midst of some letters to the editor...and within these letters, mention is made of the different standards for male soldiers and female soldiers.

ARMY Magazine

What follows is a link to a website which lists exactly what the US Army's requirements are for the Physical Fitness test, for both genders:

http://www.benning.army.mil/usapfs/Training/APFT/

In order to make sense of those charts, understand that a minimum point total of 60 must be achieved in each event category in order to pass the test.

As one can see, the standards in each event are higher for a male soldier, save in one category: sit-ups. Now...to some of us, the numbers involved might appear non-intimidating...and would be, if it were an unsupervised event. However, each event and each soldier is closely monitored by a PT Test administrator that scores the soldier according to the proper "form"...meaning, each exercise repetition *must* be executed in the proscribed manner, or it will *not* be counted.

Just to give you an idea of how stressful and demanding this can be...on my first PT Test in Basic Training, I executed more than 80 push-ups during the 2 minute period allowed for the event (I stopped keeping count after 70 or so :eek: ). However, as I was doing them the Test NCO only counted 44 of those push-ups as being valid "Army" push-ups. Why? On some, I didn't lower myself close enough to the ground...on others, my back sagged slightly...and near the end of the event, as I began to struggle to finish, I lowered my head down. One must execute a push-up as specified by Army standards in order for it to count towards your PT test score. I barely passed my first test as a result....but later on during my time in the military, I did much better. ;)

The Army arrived at these standards based upon study and research conducted over several years, involving countless numbers of both male and female soldiers. I'm happy to say that the PT tests were never much of a problem for me - my best events were push-ups and the 2 mile run - but many people did indeed have some issues with the different standards for males and females. Some felt that the female soldiers should have to meet the same standards as male soldiers...after all, both were on an identical pay scale. A particularly sore point amongst many male soldiers was the fact that female soldiers were given special consideration out in the field, and were exempted from certain kinds of duty.

What are people's thoughts on this?

Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2003 1:33 am
by Tamerlane
People in the defence forces still kick up a fuss about the different standards. :rolleyes: I don't believe that women should serve on the front line so I guess having the same fitness regime for both would change my stance but since when did wages have to come into the equation. I'd say those complaining have too much time on their hands and should take their frustrations out on the shooting range or someplace else.

@Chan

I didn't see your opinion on it however :p ;)

Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2003 3:05 am
by Mr Sleep
Re: Re: Re: And here comes Weasel to spoil the fun..
Originally posted by Weasel
I will have to ask her if the Sewing Factory had a basketball team.
Sometimes they fall like lead baloons ;) Come on, it was funny, you know it!

I can't believe they would actually stop someone from sewing because of height. It's a strange world.

Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2003 3:15 pm
by Chanak
Originally posted by Tamerlane
People in the defence forces still kick up a fuss about the different standards. :rolleyes: I don't believe that women should serve on the front line so I guess having the same fitness regime for both would change my stance but since when did wages have to come into the equation. I'd say those complaining have too much time on their hands and should take their frustrations out on the shooting range or someplace else.

@Chan

I didn't see your opinion on it however :p ;)


You must not have read that opinion in an earlier post. :p ;)

I have no problem with the different basic standards for males and females in the armed services. With that said, let me say that I am referring to the basic requirements for every soldier, not job-specific ones. There is a difference. ;)

If a female soldier wishes to be an 11B - infantryman (or, in her case, infantrywoman :D ) - I feel she *must* meet the standards which exist for that particular MOS (Military Occupational Specialty). Each MOS has different standards. For example, my own MOS, 31C, required that a soldier be able to lift a 115 pound tactical teletype off the ground, and carry it for at least 25 feet. What was the real life situation here? LOL, myself and a fellow solider had to both carry one of these beasts apiece all the way down the street to maintenance facility - about two blocks or so from our Communications shop - as there wasn't a vehicle available to take them there. We just hoisted them up on our shoulders and attributed it to "military intelligence." ;)

EDIT - The sole female 31C in my platoon was under me directly, as I was her team leader. I knew she could pick one of those things up - she was rather strong - but I also knew she couldn't carry the blasted thing all the way to Maintenance. She looked at me and laughed when the Platoon Sergeant informed us we would have to tote them down there ourselves. I could have ordered her to do it...but let's be realistic here. I might have been a "Hoo-ah" soldier, but I wasn't a jerk. ;)

Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2003 4:26 pm
by Scayde
One side note, When I learned to SCUBA, my instructor was an old Navy SEAL. We went by their training manual, and their testing. There were NO allowences made for men or women. It actually turns out, women have a rather keen advantage in open water diving, maily because of their higher body fat ratio. If they are in good cardiovascular shape, they keep right up with the guys. Now I am not aware if there any women SEALs, but female navy divers do have to meet the same requirements as the men.

This is what I mean by opportunity, not favors. :cool: