Richard Clarke attacks Bush

fable · Post by **fable** » Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:28 am

Originally posted by Chanak
I don't believe that they are lying to us for our own safety, Thug....rather, they lie to us in order to control us. And it has worked beautifully, for the most part.

Dead on. Politicians have used that "We must protect the Little People from the truth" argument for ages. Not only is it horrifically condescending (are we *that* insecure and stupid that we can't live with reality?), but it's historically always been associated with some form of cover-up--like the gross bigotry and internal governmental mismanagement which led to the Dreyfus Affair in turn-of-the-20th-century France. The French government claimed they had plenty of evidence convicting the French Jewish captain Dreyfus of treason, and they even wheeled in huge stacks in court; but nothing could be revealed, because "it was better for the public not to know." In the end, it was shown that there wasn't an iota of evidence against Dreyfus; and in fact, one of his superiors who had seen to his conviction (and a decade spent on Devil's Island) was a German spy.

I could give more than a dozen such instances leading right up through Johnson's debacle in the Bay of Tonkin and both Nixon and Dubya's siting of executive privilege, but why bother? As a general rule of thumb, the only time you should wholeheartedly believe someone when they say "I can't tell you for your own good" is if they're very large, named Guido, and the scene is a parking lot at 2 AM.

Beowulf · Post by **Beowulf** » Sun Apr 18, 2004 10:53 am

Originally posted by fable
Judging from the last few days of hearings, I thought it was all about White House deniability, blaming the FBI and CIA, claiming the nation couldn't be successfully protected for another five years, but demanding more funds.

Well yeah, but that all comes down to the government, and their duty to protect their citizens, and whether or not they carried out that duty as they should have.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sun Apr 18, 2004 4:25 pm

Originally posted by Beowulf
Well yeah, but that all comes down to the government, and their duty to protect their citizens, and whether or not they carried out that duty as they should have.

No argument. I was merely employing dry humor. Judging from the testimony, it's pretty apparent that Bush knew at least a month in advance from a briefing that Al-Qua'ida-based terrorist attacks via planes were likely to occur; but he was too focused on "getting" Hussein to take even the most basic of measures--and it's his responsibility, in the end; nobody elses. If he had merely directed the major US airports to institute more careful checks of luggage and passengers, I'm inclined to doubt that nineteen people carrying knives would have been able to board and cause 9/11. It would have required so little; as opposed to the draconian and sometimes bizarre measures that have been taken since, including several laws that have led to the precious loss of liberties and the ridiculous interrment of hundreds of foreign students.

RandomThug · Post by **RandomThug** » Mon Apr 19, 2004 9:51 am

Not to mention thousands of lives, trillions of dollars, and possibly a reinstatement of the draft. And even then a lot of people will still want to kill each other, and we'll still have terrorists. "Stay the course."

As if lives were being spared before hand. And terrorists well always stay the course so pointing that out is redundant, I know this will not end it but what it will do in my opinion is offer change to a climate that has been the same war torn violent place for as Chanak said long before the romans left.

I dont fear the draft, not in the least. If my country calls on me and needs me, damn If I am to run and hide. It is in my hearnest opinion that we went really backwards and screwy at this Iraqi war, but can salvage it by leaving the country in the hands of the world. (Including the US a big part of the US) Reshape it and help build it into a productive and democratic nation. Sure its going to take longer than a year... so those who say "Well look at Iraq today hah your wrong" I say well look at any nation.. name me one that formed in a year, especially in these circumstances.

If people believe the world is better off left alone, if we should just back out of support Isreal and let all those countries just blow each other to hell and let them settle it out... well god I guess death and all that war is ok after all, just make sure them greedy americans dont make money off it. If its just for religion then its ok, not for cash! Sure Iraq wasn't a large threat to America but if you tell me they were fine before the war... I'll point to saddam to the sanctions to etc. etc. Are they better off right now, at this moment. no. Will they be later? Hopefully. Do I like Bush? No.. Do I support his actions.. yes... ... ... ...

@Chanak I guess I am just one of those angry Americans that yell's at his tv during presidential press conferences "YOU WORK FOR ME BASTARD"

@Fable most of the time your dead on so I dont even know if Im arguing with you or not... its early monday and Im sick... have you even responded to something of mine or am I just rambling... hmm

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Mon Apr 19, 2004 1:52 pm

Since we're in this for the long haul, we need to conserve our resources. Immediately after 9-11, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld wanted to invade Iraq because it was "an easier target" than the people who were actually responsible for the attacks. In keeping with such wisdom, I think it's time to find a target that's easier to deal with than Iraq. I mean, there are plenty of other places to kill people and spend lots of money, and I'm sure we could trump up some really good reasons for starting wars there. Anyone who fought back would be a "terrorist", and the important thing is that we'd be fighting terrorists wherever we go. President Bush has proven that he could lead us into something like that.

RandomThug · Post by **RandomThug** » Mon Apr 19, 2004 2:25 pm

@VonDondu

Thats a general statement, you dont point anything actually out and I sure hope your not making a point of that Iraq wasn't a bad place at all. Or that Saddam wasn't a bad man. If I was to go to war with a culture (I will call it Culture, that being the culture of those who hate the western world) it would surely be a good tactic to attack the easy target first. To sweep in destroy and set fear into the other much harder places...

I can see the logic in that easily. I know we went in premature but if you wanna debate or argue or even contribute, lets get some ideas down rather than "We coulda gone lots of places" how about " we could of gone here"

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Mon Apr 19, 2004 4:03 pm

I wasn't talking about what we could have done before; I was talking about what we can do next. There's no use looking behind us when we need to be looking ahead.

And see, my whole point was that there are all sorts of bad places (and bad cultures) in the world that we could attack, and some of them would be easier to fight than Iraq. So maybe we should move on to our next major military victory in the war against terror.

RandomThug · Post by **RandomThug** » Mon Apr 19, 2004 4:10 pm

It's just hard to not notice the attempt of humor in your post, considering you are being humorous and dont actually think victory can be achieved in a year or two. There will always be evil and bad places and if this is going to turn into one those, in my opinion idiotic, arguments of "why didnt you go here too, and here... and here... and here.." ... Im going to puke because its just hypocrasy. When we start bombing North Korea because of its threat people will be whining about our intentions there... and if we went to iran same difference... I'd wager a yearly salary that if we went to say Iran first or perhaps north korea and it was as ugly as this war is (which is what war is, ugly) people would be posting in news groups and on forums

"Why didnt you go to iraq, he actually used his weapons before"

America is trying to do a very very noble thing. Sure its (&%*&%(*^$* up completly but the american people dont want that... we dont want for the rich elite to gain control of oil, we dont want the iraqi people to suffer. We want other people to have the blessings we have... we want to live ina world without fear we want others to live in that same world....

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Apr 19, 2004 7:03 pm

Sure its (&%*&%(*^$* up completly but the american people dont want that...

@RT, you're certainly entitled to your personal opinions, but please don't step onto the soapbox and speak for the "American people." I'm an American, and I completely disagree with every point in your last post. And according to recent polls, now that more of the background information is coming out about 9/11 and the Iraqi Invasion, the public is heavily split, as well.

You're not "the American people." You're you. You can't even speak for those who agree with you, since they may have very different reasons for doing so. No more can I.

Coot · Post by **Coot** » Tue Apr 20, 2004 2:59 am

Originally posted by RandomThug
America is trying to do a very very noble thing.

Who do you mean when you say 'America'?? Certainly not the Bush administration? There were, as we are learning now, a lot of reaons to invade Iraq, but there weren't any 'noble' reasons. Do you honestly believe that anyone in the Bush administration thought that bringing democracy into Iraq was going to succeed?!
IMHO it's the American (and other) soldiers in Iraq who are trying to do a noble thing. And they're also the ones paying the price.

RandomThug · Post by **RandomThug** » Tue Apr 20, 2004 9:30 am

@Fable I apologize for appearing as If I represent the American people, and Im sorry you dont agree with any point... (Although I am confused because I was saying how we dont want all that bad stuff, you know what everyone claims bush is after..)

@Coot The american people are a democracy and they vote for a person in power, even if you didnt vote for Bush he is our president and a representive of us. We are attempting to make the world safer by ridding the world of terrorism, like I said sure Iraq wasn't the best. But we have hindered terror groups and accomplished a lot... if you want me to go through everything we have accomplished I will its too early for me right now though. I believe surely without doubt that hte Bush people thought Democracy can and will work, not perfectly... it never has.

I was just venting because I hate how easy it is to use the broad brush to paint an idea on America... and attempt to appear anything intelligent.

Moonbiter · Post by **Moonbiter** » Tue Apr 20, 2004 10:16 am

@Thug

But we have hindered terror groups and accomplished a lot... if you want me to go through everything we have accomplished I will its too early for me right now though

I would like that, but I think we could use another thread for that. I also want to point out to you that one of the favourite tactics of Bush supporters is to label all critisism as "Anti-American" and that makes you/them sound, at the best of times, like Joseph McArthy, at the worst of times like stormtroopers on parade.

The american people are a democracy and they vote for a person in power, even if you didnt vote for Bush he is our president and a representive of us.

Let me also remind you that the world pre-9.11 was as a whole both shocked, revolted and quite frankly frightened at the way Bush and his crew came into power, and that all investigations into the actual circumstances of that ellection was halted because of 9.11 and has conveniently never been continued.

I am not anti-american. I lived there for 4 years of my adult life, and I love the people, the nation and what it SHOULD stand for. You remember that before you go out on another tired "paint-with -a broad-brush" vent. It is YOUR duty as an American to question your leaders, and if you did that a bit more, maybe you wouldn't feel so insulted when other do it.

That was my vent.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Tue Apr 20, 2004 10:29 am

Originally posted by Moonbiter
I am not anti-american. I lived there for 4 years of my adult life, and I love the people, the nation and what it SHOULD stand for...

Oh, go ahead and say it: you think we're a bunch of lazy, greedy, sugar-addicted, TV-addicted slobs.

RandomThug · Post by **RandomThug** » Tue Apr 20, 2004 10:33 am

@Moon Oh dont think I will call your post a broad brush most of those are directed at others who just makes broad statements.

You seem to be quite on point.

And I think it is most important for Americans to question thier leaders, like I have said and will say again the way we went to war with iraq is more than questionable its plainly a screwball action. Sure I agree with going in and removing Saddam in the same vien I will agree with removing or diplomatically dealing with people like Mr. North Korea or those Hamas leaders (And to be honest Im not that fond of Isreal's main man either). I just get a little frustrated when non American citizens question our leaders...

Never once would I call an American Anti American really, unless they acted upon treason. Being a bad American is still American. And thats something to be proud of (being American that is).

I dont remember the shock and awe you claim we all felt as Bush got into office, note he had to have half the vote for it to be that close... it wasnt a 70 30 fight his end on the 30 winning. Even then why didn't we stop it? Why didn't we revolt and fight it? We accepted it. In my opinion when a democracy elects a leader (Through contraversy or not) they are responsible as well.

I just erased a rant about believing in yourself and such... ahh this isnt a good subject for me right now cause I can easily be insulted and sent into furious rage. Really hit home today. Brian Wood. Nice kid really nice guy.. ****

I also think that America will ALWAYS stand for those values and at times we are challenged. We will overcome.

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu Apr 22, 2004 9:31 pm

I dont remember the shock and awe you claim we all felt as Bush got into office, note he had to have half the vote for it to be that close... it wasnt a 70 30 fight his end on the 30 winning. Even then why didn't we stop it? Why didn't we revolt and fight it? We accepted it.

Not necessarily. I loathed it, and so did many others who despised the idea of a president being chosen for us by a Supreme Court (with a majority in turn appointed, surprise, by Republican presidents), and getting into office despite having a lower popular vote than his opponent. But there's no law for contravening this. There's no mass uprising, because most people don't expect any better out of a nation where "representative" democracy got lost somewhere back in the early 19th century.

Chanak · Post by **Chanak** » Thu Apr 22, 2004 9:55 pm

Originally posted by fable
There's no mass uprising, because most people don't expect any better out of a nation where "representative" democracy got lost somewhere back in the early 19th century.

That is the awful truth.

Coot · Post by **Coot** » Fri Apr 23, 2004 3:02 am

Originally posted by RandomThug
[B I just get a little frustrated when non American citizens question our leaders... [/b]

It's the price you pay when you're the only superpower in the world. The decisions of your government have a lot of impact on the rest of the world. When the US invaded Iraq, other countries supported or condemned that decision.
If the Netherlands would've invaded Iraq, it wouldn't have been big news. Except maybe on kneeslapperoftheday.com.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Fri Apr 23, 2004 5:18 am

On the contrary, if the Netherlands ever invades Iraq (you're "tipping your hand" there, aren't you?)

the United States will have to liberate Iraq from the Dutch. Besides, there's a lot of oil there, so you can't expect the U.S. to look the other way.

Moonbiter · Post by **Moonbiter** » Fri Apr 23, 2004 5:31 am

Naaaaahhh! This isn't about oil! It's about weeeepuns of mass deeestrukchn and freedom and deemocracy and moms apple pie and the bimbo next door!

Didn't you know that? Shheeesh, you Yanks are SO ignorant.

Chanak · Post by **Chanak** » Fri Apr 23, 2004 5:45 am

Originally posted by Moonbiter
...freedom and deemocracy and moms apple pie and the bimbo next door!

If those were actually the reasons, I would re-enlist to be a dogface again. Someone has to protect her!