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[QUOTE=pennypincher]As for caine giving two hoots about the Cammerilla and not caring about what he looked like... Caine was the same man who refused to say sorry to GOD for commit the first ever murder because he didn't want to look like he was wrong... So yes, apperances have always been an important thing too him.[/QUOTE]

Except Caine isn't a man anymore, and one would presume that some 5,000 years of existence (in some form - I'm working from the Jewish Calendar, where we are in about the year 5,400 from Creation) might actually change his behavior and/or attitude. My attitude towards killing animals changed over a period of some 30 minutes while stalking a deer, and has changed my entire attitude towards killing ever since, not to mention the way I run my life. It's not unreasonable to presume that Caine arrived at a similar epiphany over a much longer period.

[QUOTE=pennypincher]Caine consistantly shows a deep seated hatred for all Kindred and a relative indifference to mortals.[/QUOTE]

That is a matter that comes from the WoD and those who play in it. In that context, I can offer no useful commentary.

I think that the discussion in this thread focuses to much on things as they are in the PnP version of VtM.

With adaptation from a written medium for a small audience to an audiovisual medium for a larger audience a lot of back-story gets dropped, twisted or ignored. Whether it is book to movie or PnP RPG to computer RPG, things will get changed to accomodate the tastes of a wider audience that doesn't want to delve as deep as the smaller, original audience and to accomodate the limitations of the medium. (Yes audiovisual media have limitations compared to written media, especially on the level of costs per information unit).

With this in mind, I think the game clearly suggests that the cabbie could very well be Caine. This without ever explicitly confirming it, maybe to spare the feelings of those who played the original PnP RPG.

And as for the contents of sarcophagus: it's quantum. It's by the act of looking that you determine what's in the sarcophagus.

I agree with Lestat, i mean is it really so hard to imagine that one day the developers had a meeting and one of them said:"Hey wouldn't it be cool if Caine himself were in the game?"

I am personally pretty convinced that the cabbie is Caine simply because there is very strong evidence that he is and practically no evidence that he isn't.

So far a lot of arguments about the cabbie not being Caine have all been speculations about what kind of a person Caine is, these arguments are extremely weak and here is why.

Caine is a creature with practically god-like powers that has roamed the earth for several thousands of years.

Now

Is anyone on this forum a creature with practically god-like powers that has walked the earth for thousands of years?

What's that you say? No?

I think i made my point. (Sorry about the sarcasm)

There is a possible explanation for Cabbie being Caine. We can imagine that a creature so old an powerful would watch everybody, even the whole world from the above, and he doesn't really care who does what, he is interested only in what amuses him. And he is surely very bored after all those years.

An analogy would be a kid playing with ants. He might squash them, set them at fire, help them pass an obstacle, let one run around his hand, or give them some bread crumbs. Whatever he thinks it's funny to him. Obviously, he could not care less about what really happens to them.

So could Caine look at the Kindred. He watches them, helps some, helps destroy some, helps them with their businesses which he regards petty, or obstructs them. Whatever amuses him. They're all ants to him. Insignificant little creatures whose activities amuse him, and he plays with them without them knowing of it.

Why not drive a cab too? Don't sometimes celebrities do such things for fun? Doing something to make people think they're an ordinary Joe doing what he does. There's just such a TV-show in my country where celebrities drive a cab around (what a coincidence!) and talk to people, who sometimes wonder who might the Cabbie actually be.

No, the quintessential essence of a Vampire is the inability to change. It's what plagues the Torreador to the day they eventualy pass from the earth for whatever reason... And it's the very essence of the story of Caine, his inability and unwillingness to change either his attitude or his outlook. God asked only one thing of him... To applogise for killing his brother, and to this day, and beyond the destruction of the entier earth, Caine refused to do so. He, like all vampires, is unchanging to the point of insanity... Where Elder vampires refuse to use "Light Globes" and "Telephonic devices" you can imagine that Caine MIGHT have an issue with all the new fangeled "Cars" and "Radios" and such...

In fact, the very essence of the story of Caine, from the book of Nod right up to the end of the Gehenna book, has been his hatred of all vampires spawned after his decleration in law that there shall be no more made. The idea that he might be a cabbie in a game running around mixing it up with neonate nobody newbies in the new world is utterly insulting and just a little on the nutty side... Bearing in mind that the concept of being nuts for suggesting it only really applies to any one whos had a great deal of background info on the issue, so don't take it to heart.

But of course, stating the facts again wont change anyones mind, so I'll just let it be now.

Ah, dear Pennypincher, it's a crass, commercial world out there.

I do not doubt your facts and in fact have an high opinion of your knowledge of White Wolf's World of Darkness. But fact is also that things got mangled, twisted and corrupted by the tranformation into a PC-game, as surely as Anakin Skywalker when he became Darth Vader.

The same thing happened to the Lord of the Rings when they made it into a movie. To cite but one example: the Elves of Lorien coming to the rescue of the Rohirrim at Helm's Deep? I don't think so: the army of Saruman that laid siege to Helm's Deep was destroyed by the Huorns of Fangorn (awakened trees that had become somewhat Entlike). Moreover, the peoples of Men and Elves had become so estranged during the Third Era that such a rescue operation would be unimaginable if you follow the writings of Tolkien, and Galadriel anyway had hardly any forces to spare since her realm was directly threatened from out of Mirkwood (and Moria). But still the rescue operation by the Elves is in the movie... And I enjoyed the movie, with all the liberties they took.

I fear you have to accept that the PC-game developers took quite some liberties with your beloved gameworld. But enjoy the game anyway.

True, and that coming from Jackson, who swore to make every effort to give a good playing of LOTR that would not offend fans. Yet Bombadil and Radagast are never even mentioned, Frodo isn't initially rescued by Legolas, and somehow Arwen becomes the child of Elrond of Rivendell rather than the daughter of Galadriel and Celeborn of Lothlorien (and got a lot more face time from it). All of this, just from the first movie.

One might readily assume, then, that the developers of VTMB might have taken similar liberties with the game that provided obvious dissonance with the P&P WoD that a P&P expert might be readily familiar with and able to readily identify.

As for the 'dark father', and the feeling of impending doom that everybody reports from the Seer to Beckett to Pisha has an obvious source. Your character, and Jack. Jack would be the 'dark father' if indeed he was behind your embrace, and the 'feeling of doom' just happens to coincide closely in game time with your siring. Everybody simply dismisses you because you are, after all, a fledgeling, although a highly unusual (and extremely powerful) one.

Think about it. Pisha last felt her feeling just before the Kristalnacht in Germany. What does your character do? In most endings your character all but wipes out the emplaced power structure in LA and throws the Kindred community in the city into chaos. If you go the pariah route, you all but wipe out the Society of Leopold, the Kuei-Jin, the Camarilla, and the Sabbat in the city, leaving only the weakest faction with any amount of power.

The feeling of impending chaos and doom is because of you, and perhaps the Dark Father's purpose (assuming it was Jack) in setting up the whole Antedeluvian fantasy around the Sarcophagus is to simply distract everybody in the city from noticing that.

*Weeps openly*

Lets have a moment of silence for The Lord Of The Rings:

"Oh look, the elves came back!"

Star Wars:

"Noooooo!"

Vampire:

"So Caine drives me down to pick up some cheap hookers and..."

And Batman:

"I was trained by Nnnniiijjaaa! Honorable, anti crime Ninja!"

[QUOTE=pennypincher]*Weeps openly*[/QUOTE]
There, there... (comforting hug)

Now now let's try to stay on topic people.
We don't want to get the thread closed (and i so enjoyed reading this discussion)

Now i think we all agree that the cabbie is Caine (in the video-game WoD that is)

Anyone else need convincing?

And by the way i like it when filmmakers take a few creative liberties, after all film is not what you do, it's how you do it.
Although i do agree on you about the whole nooooooooo!-thing in star wars, but revenge of the sith is stil the best prequel.

After reading this discussion, I'm was intrigued by the answers and questions it had to brought me. I had just finished the game and was very curious about the cabbie's identity as well as the significance of the ending. Now, I have no doubt that the identity is in-fact, Caine, and this is not due to any of the reasons mentioned here. Rather it has to do with what he said at the end, about fate.

Think about it. Think about where he says it, appearing at Jack's location to tie the story together and provide a truly shocking ending. Think about what Jack did. He killed the Prince. Why'd he kill the Prince? To re-establish the Anarch free state. Why? Because Anarchs are Anti-Institution and against absolutist entities, such as the Prince, and want domain over their own 'lives.' Anarchs believe in freedom and liberty, at least on surface level, but in the end, it is just their selfish goal.

Now think of the Prince. Think of what he wanted from the Sarcophagus. He wanted to build an Empire using the Camerilla as backbone. That was just his selfish goal, his choice.

Now think of the Sabbat and the Asians or all of Kindred for that matter, they all have their goals and power struggles and wants and perceptions. All these sects were pitted against each other acting for themselves but in the end they were bound to their fate of their blood- Caine's blood, in essence, the Vampire Bloodlines. Which is why the Cabbie is Caine, or rather the Avatar of, the speaker, if you will. By making the mention of the fate Caine passed on, Cabbie shows that ultimately vampires‘ choices are constructed from their will to survive as vampires. In essence, they have been given an eternal life of/for servitude-to who knows what? Food for the returning ancients or the continuation of a species? The point is, they are still bound by the will to survive, in whatever way perceivable, either by creating an empire for absolute control or dissolving despotic figures. The preferences may vary but the motivation is still the same: survival, and anything can be justified to retain it.

Thus is my opinion about the game as well as some areas of life. Oh and btw, Jack owns.

Took the trouble of reading another page making the text that was posted here utterly useless.

[QUOTE=Faust]the werewolf would be nothing to an Antediluvian, and he's unbeatable to the player, for instance[/QUOTE]

I believe that the werewolf is unbeatable for your character for some fun and difficulty in the game, not because your character isn't strong enough.
Look at Nines...
HE was able to kill a werewolf, only suffering some minor wounds in the meantime.
And your character is without doubt much more potent and powerfull then Nines, 'cause you did what he couldn't: Kill Ming and/or Lacroix.

Your character is most definitely NOT stronger than Nines, Nines is much older than your character and could probably easily kill him.

EvilBelgian, you think the werewolf was made invincible to make the game more fun and that it's pure logic that your character was able to kill Ming, the sheriff and Lacroix while it's exactly the opposite, it is pure logic that the pc isn't able to kill the werewolf because in a one on one-fight against a vampire and a werewolf the werewolf wil probably win (unless the vampire is both powerful and VERY lucky and apparently Nines was both)

The pc being able to kill both the sheriff and Ming, THAT was put in to make the game more fun, I mean ask yourself :"What kind of game would this be if you didn't have some superpowerfull bosses at the end"

And one more thing, Nines could most definitely have killed Lacroix and Ming, just as Lacroix could have sent his sheriff and some men to kill a whole bunch of Anarchs or Kue-jin. The reason they don't do this is because they are technically not at war with each other, even though they all have very hostile feelings towards one another they are not allowed to kill each other because there is indeed a very fragile peace between them and it's not untill the end of the game that this peace is shattered.

The only ones that are at war with anyone are the Sabbat.

You say that Nines is stronger then the pc due to the fact that he's older (and thus more experienced). Logical indeed.
However: Nines tells the pc that he learned the ways of the world during the depression making him 80 or 90 years old tops.
Lacroix tells the pc that he was born 200+ years ago.
Jack tells you that Lacroix picked up his sherrif in india (or africa not sure) about 100 years ago.
And you say that he could kill Ming and/or Lacroix (and the sherrif, taknig count to the fact that they are so inseperatable) ?
So you're kinda contradicting yourself.

I agree however on the peace-part.

I am not saying that being older automatically makes you stronger, it just helps that's all, yes Lacroix is older but I doubt he's seen a lot of action, I mean he doesn't even put up a fight when the pc cuts his throat, he's a politician that lets others do the dirty work for him.

Nines however is a different story, it's obvious that he has had a rough life both as a human and a vampire which tends to toughen you up a lot faster than sitting behind a desk for 200+ years.

It is worth mentioning that the power of the pc isn't a very good way to determine how powerful certain npc's are as the pc appears to be a fledgeling that gains a ridiculous amount of power in an extremely short time, naturally this is all for the games sake and doesn't have any real logic to it.

being older does make you stronger, and yes, automaticaly. Even vampires sleeping in Torpor gain Discplines (thou usualy only the physical ones) as they age... And often a few dots in Stam as well, as their eternal bodies become older, harder and cling more tightly to unlife.

As for yet another person whooping the WoD in its no no place by calling a cabbie Caine... *More soft sobbing and weeping* Poor World Of Darkness... First they finish you and reprint you in rubbishy WoD2 version, then people sully your memory... Why are people so unkind?! Is it any suprise there were so many "Flase Caine" sightings when people see a Cabbie who sprouts random garble about the blood of caine and gets promoted to the king of the blood drinkers?

Well Pennypincher you know more about the WoD then me so I will take your word for it that vampires that are older are more powerful, although I still think that Lacroix is (at least in kindred terms) a wimp compared to others his age.

And don't feel so bad about the cabbie being Caine, they're just game-developers, they don't know any better.

Well, I spose it depends on your definition of a whimp. He's a Prince, so instantly he has acess to power that's just VERY difficult to top... Police, news papers, crime, tv, other kindred... However that said, from a face to face fisty cuffs point of view, it's quiet possable to be an Elder with 30 points of discplines and still be a push over... Observe:

Presence 1... You can awe a crowd and make them swing in your favour, but that wont help you stop a bullet to the eye.

Potence 1... You hit a LITTLE harder, but it's not going to swing a fight in your favour.

Fortitude 2... You'll last a bit longer in the fight, but it wont really help you come out on top a lot.

Dominate 5... An AMAZING amount of power at your disposal... Unless the other person has a better Generation then you, has a Tremere on their side or just doesn't meet your eyes... Your character seems to have the upper hand on the Prince in the end of the game, so this would be pretty usless to him without anyone else in the room to dominate to fight for him.

Animalism 5... Great for subterfuge, cunning, pre planning, making quick get aways, distractions, learning more about the beast, mastering the wild places... Not so great for killing anyone.

Obfuscate 3... Once your in the fight, without Vanish From The Minds Eye, your pretty much stuck there unless you can get away.

Celerity 1... One extra action a round for one blood? Almost a waste of blood when you could put that point into Dexterity and almost negate the cost of splitting your actions anyway.

Dementation 5... Great, now he's crazy AND killing me! Unless you mannage to incapacitate him with crazyness, which would require a LITTLE luck and a chance for you to converse with them, that bugger is still going to pound your brains in.

Auspex 5... You knew he was comming, you knew he wanted to kill you, you knew why, you knew how he was going to do it... If your still stupid enough to be in the fight, thats your tough luck son!

Thurmaturgy: Movement Of The Mind 2... Enough strength to pick up a small box or two and lob it around. I promise, a vampire who soaks bashing for half dammage isn't even going to BLINK at that.

So yeah, 30 points latter and you have an unstopable vampire machine that could easily control goverments, plan jyhads that make the antedeluvians shake and would likley never have to face combat due to it's amazing powers... But if it ever DID come into combat? Well, it's not really suited for that kind of thing. However, it could dominate a small army to stop you, and take over the bodies of those members of the army and use it's vampire powers from them, effectivly making you have to fight 30 versions of him before you reach the real him, it could lock all doors in a building with just a thought and stop machines and elevators, it knows your comming and has already driven you so mad you can't even leave the house for fear of aliens stealing your thoughts, which it is currently stealing anyway, and even if you reached the vampire, it could look like anyone in the world or just be totaly invisable... Or heck, with Astral projection, it might never have been there at all really...

But get into fisty cuffs with him? Nighty night baby!

Umm....I guess that's sorta what I meant.

I never knew how much different the pnp disciplines were from those in the game, pennypincher do you think that Troika did a good job translating some disciplines from pnp to videogame?