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VonDondu
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Post by VonDondu »

@The Chosen One: You'll certainly want to acquire better armor and weapons as you go along. If you have the Bonus Merchants, you can buy items like the Robe of Vecna (which has been recommended to you several times already) and one of my favorite weapons, the Defender of Easthaven. Even the "standard" items are better than some of the ones you have now. The Robe of the Good Archmage (for your main character) and the Mauler's Arm (for Viconia) spring to mind.

If you want to make your party more powerful, I'd replace Viconia with Anomen. The reasons why Anomen is more powerful than Viconia are explained below.

[QUOTE=Astafas]That is not my expererience. Maybe you should try to let him Grand Master in your weapon of choise, and give him a good one of those. You should also buff him up with Draw Upon Holy Might, Rightous Magic etc, as you would any Cleric. Cleric has the second best THAC0 table - if you can't hit, you do something wrong.[/QUOTE]
I agree. The main advantage in having those seven Fighter levels is that they allow him to achieve Grand Mastery. (He also has better saving throws at lower levels, but that becomes a moot point at higher levels.)

However, if you want Anomen to achieve his full potential, then you need to fix Bioware's mistakes in his proficiency point distribution. If you compare him to any other 7th Level Fighter dualled to a Cleric, you'll see that he is missing four proficiency points. At 20th Level (in other words, when he has 2,950,000 experience points), he should have thirteen proficiency points. I let him wield Crom Faeyr and Defender of Easthaven, so I give him five points in War Hammer, three points in Flail, one point each in Mace, Sling, and Sword and Shield Style, and two points in Two Weapon Style. (The next time he gets a proficiency point, I put it in Two Weapon Style.) At that level, his THAC0 is -8 in his main hand and -2 in his offhand, and he has four attacks per round. In my opinion, that's pretty nice.

For the sake of comparison, Korgan's base THAC0 is five points better than Anomen's at the same experience level. However, at 19th Level (2,950,000 experience points), Korgan only has ten proficiency points compared to Anomen's thirteen proficiency points (if Anomen's are corrected). He starts out with five proficiency points in Axes and one proficiency point in War Hammer, and he gains four more proficiency points by the time he reaches 19th Level. If you add two points apiece to War Hammer and Two Weapon Style and let him wield Axe of the Unyielding and Crom Faeyr, his THAC0 is -11 in his main hand and -9 in his offhand, and he gets four-and-a-half attacks per round. That makes him "better" than Anomen unless Anomen casts Righteous Magic and Blade Barrier, in which case I'd give Anomen the edge.

Anomen also compares quite favorably to Viconia. I wouldn't make Viconia a frontline fighter (because she doesn't have enough hit points or attacks per round), so what advantages does she have as a spellcaster? At 2,950,000 experience points, she's one level higher than Anomen at the most (he's only 64,000 points behind her), and he can cast nearly as many spells as she can. She can cast eleven 1st Level spells, eleven 2nd Level spells, ten 3rd Level spells, ten 4th Level spells, eight 5th Level spells, six 6th Level spells, and two 7th Level spells. If Anomen doesn't achieve knighthood, he can still cast nine 1st Level spells, nine 2nd Level spells, nine 3rd Level spells, nine 4th Level spells, eight 5th Level spells, six 6th Level spells, and two 7th Level spells at 21st Level. In other words, Viconia can memorize six more 1st through 4th Level spells than Anomen, which doesn't make a whole lot of difference. She does have natural magic resistance, but since her Strength is only 10, she can't wear some of the better suits of heavy armor or carry some of the better shields, and she simply can't dish out as much damage as Anomen even with the use of spells. The only other difference is the way they Turn Undead, which is a matter of personal preference, I suppose. Personally, I'd rather kill them than control them.

Before Throne of Bhaal came out, a lot of people claimed that a 9th Level Berserker dualled to a Cleric was one of the most awesome characters you could play--right up there with Cleric/Rangers and Kensai/Mages. I played a Berserker dualled to a Cleric two or three times because I liked it so much. If you think about it, Anomen isn't too much different from a 9th Level Berserker dualled to a Cleric. He's missing two Rages, two levels, one proficiency point (if you fix the other four proficiency points he's missing), and five points of Wisdom (since a Fighter requires 17 Wisdom to dual to a Cleric). But in my opinion, he's still almost as good as a 9th Level Berserker dualled to a Cleric, and that's saying something. :)
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Astafas
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Post by Astafas »

However, if you want Anomen to achieve his full potential, then you need to fix Bioware's mistakes in his proficiency point distribution.
VonDondu, a very clarifying post! :) As for the mistake, do you mean the fact that Bioware gave Anomen profiencies in the same weapon types when he was advancing as "Cleric only" (before activation of his earlier class) as they had already given him when he advanced as Fighter?
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lompo
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Post by lompo »

I've already given you advice for better equipment, regardin your group I think it's a little abundant on divine spellcaster, so I would only change Viconia (which anyway is a very good char.) whith some other NPC.
Aerie is more than sufficient as cleric, and will become incredibly strong later on and Imoen has enough thieving skills for carrying you through the game and also is a better mage than Jan (and is a definetly keep RPG wise).
For your sixth NPC I would suggest a melee char, bacause you have already 3 mage in the group.
Korgan wan't get along very well with Aerie, but is the best fighter.
Minsc is another option for a strong frontlineer.
Mazzy has been suggested, but I would also spend a point for Valygar:
he is a more than capable fighter, his stats are good, he is a very good sniper and with right equipment can be a good frontlinner too, but mainly his most valuable feature is that he can stealth very well and "Backstab"!!! better than any thief (because of is fighter Thac0).
His abilities also complete the lacking of Imoen.
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VonDondu
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Post by VonDondu »

[QUOTE=Astafas]Do you mean the fact that Bioware gave Anomen profiencies in the same weapon types when he was advancing as "Cleric only" (before activation of his earlier class) as they had already given him when he advanced as Fighter?[/QUOTE]
I don't think that Bioware created Anomen the same way that a player creates a character. In other words, they didn't create him from scratch as a Fighter, then dual him to a Cleric, then level him up. I think they took a stock character and did some editing and said he was finished, without checking for mistakes. Even if they put his 1st-7th Level Cleric proficiency points in the same slots where they put his Fighter proficiency points (which would make them go to waste), he would only lose three proficiency points, not four. So I have no idea how Bioware chose where to put his proficiency points. Other NPCs were also created incorrectly--for example, Imoen's thieving points are messed up.

Here's the logical progression if you created Anomen from scratch as a new character with 89,000 experience points. He'd start out as a 7th Level Fighter with six proficiency points. I'd put five points in War Hammer and one point in Two Weapon Style. Then he would be dualled to a Cleric. (He'd only need 64,000 experience points for 7th Level, and he'd need to have Wisdom 17 to dual to a Cleric, of course.) He'd get two proficiency points as a 1st Level Cleric. I'd put them in Flail and Sling. At 4th Level, he'd gain another proficiency point. I'd put it in Mace. At 8th Level, he would regain his Fighter abilities, and he'd gain another proficiency point, which he could add to a weapon or weapon style he already had points in, such as Two Weapon Style, and it wouldn't go to waste. He'd gain another proficiency point at 12th Level, which I would put in Flail, and he'd gain another proficiency point at 16th Level, which I would put either in Flail or in Two Weapon Style.

Bioware's proficiency point distribution is not only less than optimal, it also shortchanges Anomen by four points. That's all I can say for certain.
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flounder
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Post by flounder »

If I were to keep a 6th member of your group it would be Anomen. I think it would be a good idea to add another cleric to the mix regardless.
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Astafas
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Post by Astafas »

[QUOTE=VonDondu]I don't think that Bioware created Anomen the same way that a player creates a character. In other words, they didn't create him from scratch as a Fighter, then dual him to a Cleric, then level him up.[/QUOTE]

No, they couldn't possibly - he doesn't have the required WIS to dual to Cleric. Perhaps one should simply accept the NPCs the way they are, with drawbacks as well as advantages...
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Post by Thrain »

when you do make the transition to ToB, it becomes more and more obvious that annoyman cannot hack it in combat.

when i had a paladin, aerie, mazzy and annoyman in my party for ToB, mazzy was taking and giving far more damage than he did yet he was the one always being healed.

you can counter this by casting the various cleric buffs. But how is he any different to Viconia in that sense? you forget the cleric's most important combat spell, holy power. a simple level four spell that gives you the THAC0 of a fighter of that level. followed by DUHM and righteous magic.

all of those spells you have to cast for annoyman to be an effective fighter in ToB anyway.

Viconia is best used as a midline fighter who buffs while your tanks soak up some damage. she then protects your mages from any stragglers.

in SoA only, though, he is a better fighter than her. but he's an IDIOT. and as you can complete the game with virtually any party, why have one that includes such a prat?
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Astafas
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Post by Astafas »

[QUOTE=Thrain]when you do make the transition to ToB, it becomes more and more obvious that annoyman cannot hack it in combat.

when i had a paladin, aerie, mazzy and annoyman in my party for ToB, mazzy was taking and giving far more damage than he did yet he was the one always being healed.

you can counter this by casting the various cleric buffs. But how is he any different to Viconia in that sense? you forget the cleric's most important combat spell, holy power. a simple level four spell that gives you the THAC0 of a fighter of that level. followed by DUHM and righteous magic.

all of those spells you have to cast for annoyman to be an effective fighter in ToB anyway.

Viconia is best used as a midline fighter who buffs while your tanks soak up some damage. she then protects your mages from any stragglers.

in SoA only, though, he is a better fighter than her. but he's an IDIOT. and as you can complete the game with virtually any party, why have one that includes such a prat?[/QUOTE]

If Mazzy is taking more damage than Anomen but he is the one always being healed, then you should perhaps consider another distribution of your healing spells...

Anomen has almost the double HPs as well as the possibility to put ***** in any weapon of choise. Furthermore, he is able to cast the same buff spells as Vic. With this is mind, how could you possible argue that Anomen is not a better Fighter?
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Coot
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Post by Coot »

I fully agree with Astafas. The combination of Ano's fighting skills and his cleric powers make him extremely efficient, especially at higher levels (ToB). If he's the guy that needs constant healing he should change armor and buffs. And he is different from Vic in that regard because no matter how powerful a cleric Vic is, she'll never match Ano's fighting skills.
Also, I find Ano's personality far more interesting than, say, Cernd, Valygar and Keldorn. At least he has some depth.
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Post by Thrifalas »

Depth? He's just annoying. But whatever, guess that's for everyone to decide.

And while it is true (cannot confirm, no way I let mr oh-so-holy-and-brave-knight join my party, but a fighter/cleric *should* be better than a pure cleric) anomen beats viconia in battle, that's not the main reason they're in the party. Viconias Magical Resistance allows her to tackle spell better, and at least to my clerics, spell is just the thing that usually hits them.

But you all knew that. Just stating the obvious. Whaaatever.
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Thrain
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Post by Thrain »

i'm not a fan of anomen at all, so maybe that's why i'm continuing even though i know for a fact he's a better fighter. i'd still take viconia over him any day of the week though.
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Coot
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Post by Coot »

Don't get me wrong, I love Viccy and I played more games with her than without her. It's just that Anomen isn't as bad as some people make him out to be. :)
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The Chosen One
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Post by The Chosen One »

Hre we go again.....

Heya again folks!
I have the similar kind of question as named before in this thread, but now we have:

Main: Avenger
Amonen
Yoshimo
Aerie

Whom should I dump and whom should join my party?
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Sytze
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Post by Sytze »

Keep 'm all. :)
Add Dalis to spice up your party interaction and for the needed mage spells until you get Immie back.
So your party with look like this:
You (Avenger)
Aerie (Mage/Cleric)
Yoshimo (Bounty Hunter)/ Imoen (Mage)
Anomen (Fighter/Cleric)
Dalis (Bard)
*

That makes 2/3 mages, 2 clerics, 1 druid, 1 thief and 1 fighter (I consider Anomen a fighter and, when played properly, Dalis too. But I think I'm probably one of the few who uses him as a frontline fighter).
Methinks you need another fighter. There are plenty of choices, but it all depends on yourself, really. What is your alignment, do you have a theme for your party, and what's your flavour when it comes down to the different fighter NPC's? You've got Minsc, Korgan, Keldorn and Mazzy. Personally, I'd go with Mazzy, since Korgan might mess around with Aerie and you probably have used Keldorn and Minsc more than enough already.

Hope that helps.
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The Chosen One
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Post by The Chosen One »

@Sytze: what about fighter so I think I'll take Keldorn - he is just WODERFULL with Carsomyr +5
But I am litle worried about Aerie: her multiclass stels quite much of the XP, but I still have a need in a mage, and her cleric spells are really good....
Should I perhaps take Edwin instead?
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Post by Ravager »

What is your party's general alignment and reputation?

Keldorn and Edwin are both good characters to have but are dependent on your parties' rep. Korgan is a good fighter for evil parties.
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Post by fable »

[QUOTE=Ravager]What is your party's general alignment and reputation?

Keldorn and Edwin are both good characters to have but are dependent on your parties' rep. Korgan is a good fighter for evil parties.[/QUOTE]

Edwin's evil, not good.
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Post by Ravager »

Yes. I just meant they both require reputation at different ends. Edwin would be happier in a low rep. party while Keldorn would be happier in a high rep. party and they wouldn't get on too well in the same party :p .
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Post by foot »

[QUOTE=fable]Edwin's evil, not good.[/QUOTE]

I think he meant good characters as in powerful characters, not good-aligned characters :) .
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Post by Ravager »

Yep. I meant 'good' in terms of powers and abilities, really. Sorry I wasn't that clear.
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