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VonDondu wrote:I don't know whether to envy you or pity you. If falling asleep is that easy for you, it must be nice. But losing consciousness immediately after coitus, or only one orgasm? I don't think I'd be willing to pay that price for sleep.

The psychotropic effect of oxytocin is actually not sleepyness, but relaxation close to a meditative state. This means that as long as the woman keeps her physical arousal level high, for instance by continuing having sex after orgasm/s, she will not fall asleep until she chooses to cease with the physical/sexual activity.

It should also be noted that I live under constant moderate sleep deprivation, so if I sit down in a chair without doing anything special, I will fall asleep in 2-3 minutes. If I go to the movies or attend a congress and the movie or the speaker is not extraordinarily interesting, I will also fall asleep fairly soon, perhaps within 15-30 minutes.

For instance, I'm assuming that the female's hormones are released when the female has an orgasm, not when the male has an orgasm. You seem to be assuming the opposite, which really strikes me as bizarre. Are you really suggesting that a woman falls asleep when a man has an orgasm? I'm also assuming that when the hormones are released, the female falls asleep shortly thereafter. Therefore, I assume that means she falls asleep shortly after the first orgasm, which means there won't be any more orgasms.

This question is actually quite intricate. Oxytocin is released after orgasm in both men and women, but sperm also contains oxytocin-relasing substances, so if a man ejaculates in the vagina, this will have an oxytocin effect also on the woman regardless if she has an orgasm or not. (The reason for this is probably because oxytocin provoces vaginal and uterine muscle spasms, just like the ones t hat occur during the female orgasm, and this is thought to facilitate fertalisation). It should also be noted that the effect of oxytocin is not really sleepyness, but relaxation, so this means that as long as the woman keeps her physical arousal level high, for instance by continuing having sex after orgasm/s, she will not fall asleep until she chooses to lie down and rest. For a maximum of oxytocin release, orgasm/s+intravaginal male ejaculation is optimal.

Cuchulain]The above article is from the New York Times wrote:
I haven't had time to read it yet, I'll take a look at it tomorrow when I have some less demanding work to do.

And yet again I'm left thinking 'Is there anything CE doesn't know?'

Although quite HOW this fits in with Insomnia, will be lost in the mists of time

[QUOTE=giles337]And yet again I'm left thinking 'Is there anything CE doesn't know?'
[/QUOTE]

A billion things Just to name a few, I'm only fluent in two languages and I really suck at economics and history

[QUOTE=giles337]Although quite HOW this fits in with Insomnia, will be lost in the mists of time [/QUOTE]

If you never slept, wouldn't you eventually end up thinking about sex?

[QUOTE=C Elegans]The psychotropic effect of oxytocin is actually not sleepyness, but relaxation close to a meditative state. This means that as long as the woman keeps her physical arousal level high, for instance by continuing having sex after orgasm/s, she will not fall asleep until she chooses to cease with the physical/sexual activity.[/QUOTE]
Okay, that makes sense, and it fits the experience of some of the other people who have posted messages here. But I don't feel sleepy after sex, unless I try really hard to relax, and even then I might not actually fall asleep, even though I'm sleepy.

[QUOTE=giles337]HOW this fits in with Insomnia, will be lost in the mists of time [/QUOTE]
For my part, I was interested in how sex might be used as a sleep aid. Sleep aids are naturally associated with insomnia. So that's the connection between sex and insomnia.


[QUOTE=Magrus]If you never slept, wouldn't you eventually end up thinking about sex? [/QUOTE]
Most people eventually end up thinking about sex even if they get enough sleep.

Most people eventually end up thinking about sex even if they get enough sleep.

Well yes, it's a constant for me, but everyone's different.

But I don't feel sleepy after sex, unless I try really hard to relax, and even then I might not actually fall asleep, even though I'm sleepy.

Yeah, I tend to frustrate my girlfriends. I don't get sleepy, I get more turned on. Sleep is usually the last thing on my mind right after sex.

[QUOTE=Cuchulain82]The above article is from the New York Times, so that makes it somewhat reputable. It's not about the brain, but I would like to hear someone think about it with a relatively scientific *cough*CE*cough* point of view...[/QUOTE]

Ok, now I have had time to read the article. Since the article is a review of a book I haven't read, I can only comment on the article and not the book, but from the article, these are my main comments:

1. Lloyd, the author of the book, argues a view that is far from new: that the female orgasm is not an adaptation and does not have an evolutionary function, instead, she argues that it is a non-function remain, old "bagage" from the embryonic development. This view has been argued by some scientist since Darwin's time. Now, it is certainly true that not all existing features evolutionary functional, we humans have useless pseudogenes and a useless appendix just to name two well-know "remains" from evolution, but: not having a direct reproduction function does not equal not having an evolutionary function. Lloyd is biologist, and maybe she did not consider that in primates, including humans, sex does not only have a reproductive function. In chimps and other apes, as well as humans, sex has a strong social function as group-bonder and also as anxiety/stress relief. A nice example is the Japanese snow macaques where the females live in groups and the males only join the group to mate. Females maintain high sexual activity with each other also during non mating season, in fact they do it to such a degree so when the males arrive, they have to fight off the other females in order to mate with one, and a majority of females actually show preference for sexual behaviour with other females rather than males. This in one of many observations that clearly demonstrates that the old idea that sex is only for reproduction has no validity for primates. Thus, arguing that the female orgams has no evolutionary function because it may not have a reproductive functions, seems to show the authors ignorance about the function of sexual behaviour in primates.

2. However, the female orgasm may have also a reproductive function. Lloyd critises the Baker-Bellis studies that show the vaginal and uterine constrictions cause the sperm to enter the intrauterine environment quicker, as "fatally flawed" because the sample was small. Since those two papers were published in the peer-reviewed press and also undergone specific statistical review (very common for good journals, and Animal Behaviour one of the best journals in this field) one may wonder why Lloyd thinks she is more qualified than the entire editoral board of experts and the reviewers, to assess the validity of Baker-Bellis study results. Personally I doubt - a larger group of experts in a field usually produce more reliable assessments than a single researcher with an ideological agenda.

3. Apart from the observation that the orgasmic contractions may facilitate reproduction, there has also been observations concerning the female orgasm as a sexual selection mechanism. In summary, this line of research has demonstrated in humans and other species that body symmetry is associated with better health (=better survival value). In humans, people with high symmetry are rated by others are more attractive, and mating with a male with high symmetry is also correlated to increased frequence of orgasm in the female. Lloyd claims that these observations are not valid because only about 45% of women experience orgasm during intercourse, but I agree with Thornhill (one of the scientists who have published symmetry studies) that this actually supports the symmetry hypothesis. If the female orgasm is a selection mechanism, it would be very strange if 100% of women experienced it all the time, since it would mean they always pick the most genetically fit partner to mate with. Not much of a selection then.

4. As a scientist, I also question why Lloyd chooses to critise colleagues and current hypothesis based on empirical studies published in peer-reviewed press, in the form of a popular science book. A popular science book is not subject for peer-review. A popular science book does not have to meet the strict criteria for how you argue and support your "case". Popular science books are not how scientists communicate with each other, it's how we try to communicate with the layman audience. If Lloyd wants to critise current hypothesis about the female orgams, why doesn't she do this in the peer-reviewed press?. This takes me back to the point that a group of scientists who do a double blind peer-review (it's always double-blind) is usually more reliable than one single scientist with an ideological agenda: in the end of the article, Lloyd says that "Accounts of our evolutionary past tell us how the various parts of our body should function" and "Getting the evolutionary story straight has potentially very large social and personal consequences for all women, and indirectly for men, as well.". Furthermore, she says "If women are told that it is "natural" to have orgasms every time they have intercourse and that orgasms will help make them pregnant, then they feel inadequate or inferior or abnormal when they do not achieve it.. Added together, I think this is an indication that Lloyd's popular science book is in line with her feminst ideology rather than a real scientific contribution to the current views about the biology of sexual behaviour. Lloyd might be an excellent scientist, what do I know, but this book obviously does not have a scientific mission, but an ideological.
End of interest from me.

I am not saying she is incorrect, it is possible that the female orgasm is not an evolutionary adaption, but merely a non-functional remain like male nipples or the appendix. (I however doubt, since the female orgasm actually does a lot of things, it elicits biological and behavioural events, which the male nipples and the appendix does not, and this is the strongest argument for the functional value of the female orgasm). In any case, a non-scientific, non peer reviewed book where you are free to make whatever claims you want without having any evidence to support your ideas, has absolutely no value to me. If Lloyd presents her critique in a scientific manner in a peer-reviewed scientific journal, I will reconsider, but not until then, or until evidence appears that support her view.

Ah, so much seriousness in my thread for late-night sillyness.

I've never really thought much about the female orgasm and evolution and such. I just found it fun and made it a game or hobby. Far more fun way to get exercise than chasing a ball around IMO.

I just have to say, I cooked the most wonderful batch of scrambled eggs I've ever had. I'm so happy right now.

Nice post, CE. I suppose it would be redundant to point out that I agree with your conclusions, wouldn't it?

WOW, CE, that was really... cool Better than any teacher I've ever had.

Anyway, I like to think as the orgasm as one of the "rewards" the body offers to someone for having intercourse, but I've never stopped to think about it deeply. I'm an economist, you know, and that makes me close my eyes to some sciences.

I've never really looked at it that way. It's always been orgasm is the goal, and sex is the journey to it in my view. *shrugs*

I have this feeling that I'm not getting sleep again tonight. I ended up with a few hours last night, but definately not more than 4, and usually, when that happens I get less and less for a few days running.

[QUOTE=Magrus]Ah, so much seriousness in my thread for late-night sillyness.
[/QUOTE]

Well, critising a newspaper article about a popular science book is one of my alternative late-night sillyness activities Especially when everybody is asleep - it's 4:50 am here and I am insomniac due to too high arousal level induced by work-frenzy.

@Fable: Ah, it's never redundant to hear you are agreeing with me

@Luis: Thanks Besides, your point is also a very valid argument in the discussion since reward and punishment are strong behavioural modifiers. A pleasant experience makes us prone to maintain a behaviour, and it would indeed be bad for reproduction if it sex was not pleasant so nobody had a motivation to do it.

[QUOTE=C Elegans]@Luis: Thanks Besides, your point is also a very valid argument in the discussion since reward and punishment are strong behavioural modifiers. A pleasant experience makes us prone to maintain a behaviour, and it would indeed be bad for reproduction if it sex was not pleasant so nobody had a motivation to do it.[/QUOTE]

LOL - reminds me of something my dad told me when I was little - "You know, I obviously enjoy sex, if I had four children, right? I mean, if it was like 'OW! OW! THAT HURTS! CUT IT OUT, ($^! IT !', no one would ever do it!"

It's only 11pm here, I just know when I won't be getting to sleep anytime soon.
I always have far too much on my mind and it's just like a train. There's no simply stopping it, it keeps going and going and when I try shutting it down to sleep it takes a while. Hours usually.

Maybe I should go back to just writing everything I can again. I did that years ago, but everything I write now is utter crap compared to that. Quite discouraging going from having a publisher clamoring to work with me and then POOF...crap.

TM- I had a friend who it hurt quite a bit. Never did it again, well until this past year. Things changed and fixed that. Now...well, that's a different story altogether.

CE, that was a great response- thanks for taking the time to type it out. I agree with Luis- intuitively, orgasms should be good for evolution (plus, they just feel so darned good... how can they be bad? )

@Mag

You know, once female friends of mine figured out that sex is fun, they often became more avid than many guys.

Yeah, this girl, don't know what it was but she was seriously in quite a bit of pain for the first two years or so. Then just poof, stripper and all sorts of action. *shakes my head* My friend kept trying to hook the two of us up for a while. Too high maintenance, catholic, republican and vegan...doesn't mix with me. I'd have to break her to handle that nonsense.

[QUOTE=Magrus]Yeah, this girl, don't know what it was but she was seriously in quite a bit of pain for the first two years or so. Then just poof, stripper and all sorts of action. *shakes my head* My friend kept trying to hook the two of us up for a while. Too high maintenance, catholic, republican and vegan...doesn't mix with me. I'd have to break her to handle that nonsense.[/QUOTE]
You know... republican-cathloic-vegan-high maintenance types can be awful... but if you can turn them... wow, wow and wow When they grow out of the shell that has (usually) been imposed by the authorative parent-type, they go crazy! It can be a handful, but man, what results. Since we're both game dorks, just think of it as a check with a really high DC and really fun rewards.

Edit- She doesn't live down here now, does she?

Nope, moved back in with daddy in Cincinatti. Saving up for a gun and a new iguana. How cute huh?

If you like little barbie looking blondes though, she's one of those.

I DO know a gorgeous little Italian hairdresser through the same friend that introduced me to this girl that lives in...the Bronx? Or was it Brooklyn? I wonder if I still have those pictures somewhere...

No...I don't...oh it's a sad day in my world.

[QUOTE=Magrus]No...I don't...oh it's a sad day in my world. [/QUOTE]
So close, and yet so far away *sigh*