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@ Ravager

Oh I thought if you scrapped the bard you could have 2 dual classed thieves

Why you might ask? so you NEVER go without thief skills... dual them at different times.

I advised a thief (1st class)/mage and a fighter (1st class)/ thief but on second thought the fighter thief would have no spells in HOF and would hit xp cap in thief anyways while getting little benefit from + 100 thief skills.

Ok heres my new idea...

Take a thief to just enough to get 100 locks and traps with nothing else...dual in cleric

When the thief/cleric gets its skills back you CAN dual your other thief to mage (but I'd wait untill they get 100 in everything IF they can eventually get thief skills back under the xp cap...

On the F/M/T:

1) it can get 100 in every thieve skill eventually AND x5 backstab
2) Higher hitpoints because a) con bonus and fighter HP b) find familiar if available c) tensors transformation!
3) Extra attacks and THACO of a fighter
4) Support mage (your spells lag behind 1 spell level roughly but its worth it in your utility as a thief and your fighting combined with your spells)..
5) Some spells are DESIGNED for a spellsword (ie tensors and protection from magic weapons (or normal...but then why not summon elementals to kill normal weapon users).

Disads:

1) slower progression BUT so what? you get the thief skills eventually, once you have stoneskin and 7 fighter you kick butt as a fighter (and it only gets better)...Play him like a F/M/T not like a M

Note: Remember to use the x5 backstab as this guy can turn invisible backstab cast shield, blur, mirror image, fireshield, stoneskin (100x better in 2edition as self cast), tensors, PFMW etc and stands melee quite well

Use the spells too! Even though less power than pure mage some spells cap off anyway or have little benefit for higher level..Of course i don't know the IWD1 spells so I could be overestimating the f/m/t power...

Myro

myro

@ Ravager

Progress is very good. I thought the Eye level four took a long time...The beholder was hard because he teleported everyone away and they were getting killed and I didn't notice! Fortunately I killed the beholder with an axe critical

Harbesh got killed with trolls (because he has low ac and I didn't know where he was all the sudden he's down to 30 hp)...but first he MI fireshield red, MI, fireshield blue, MI, MI etc..and did a LOT of damage with the shields...meanwhile I regrouped summoned some Shades and undead...and kicked the butt of the rest of the enemy. Heal was key though I must sadly admit... Next time I'll be more ready! Harbesh got resurrected...

And I was happy to see that my spells all returned when the time stasis sent me back a day

The beholder didn't kill anyone? Are they weaker than the BG2 ones? I guess so?

BTW shades is an AWSOME spell. I'm in normal mode and my sorcerors (15 level in sorceror) shades are: scrags, cyclops, or umber hulks and they have about 120 HP. Decent as they dish out more damage than the undead. also it occupies a different spell level so if I run out of animate dead i use shades. I also grabbed shadow monsters (4th level) as I liked the shades so much. Same monsters with only 60 hp BUT same damage so if I need to distract someone (eg a mage) it will be hard for them to ignore the 40 damage per round that the scrag is inflicting

Now I'm in the severed hand and just leveled to enough xp for 18th level! (but of course I still am level squatting...I drew up a chart that tells me what to do through level 30 for maximum XP/ party power balance.

Saablic Taan almost killed me with 2x power word kills really hurt... good thing amraith survived and could cast resurrect on the cleric (Makados) as he had 3 levels cleric himself...

does any kind of magic work on knights of xvim? can you lower resist on them or do they have immunity? I hate those guys...

myro

Thanks for the tips, myro .

We're already on the fifth page!

I might get rid of my old thief and go for a dual T/F and possibly add Mage to the mix. I quite like my bard so I'll stick with her. One thief mix is enough for HOF, I think. At the moment I have an option granting Sneak attack to thieves on but maybe I'll turn it off and go back to backstab.

I thought I gave you my tip for fighting that Beholder. Maybe not.
Get a charcter with 18+ STR & weighed down by 250+ pounds and they can't be moved . I know you're past that point (and so was I when I saw that) but it still sounded good.

Well, you've almost finished, though you still have to kill old Iyachtu Xvim himself . That's a tough fight but worth doing. Are you going to go straight through to HOF after?
I'll check the Xvim Knight stats for you, but I suppose you'll be finished by the time I find something and post it.

What did you think of my IWDII charcters on the last page?

Why didn't you just use 'Death Wards' on your front-line to protect against Power Word: Kill?

Did you see my IWDII charcters on the last page?

Sure did! They look rough and tough.

Why didn't you just use 'Death Wards' on your front-line to protect against Power Word: Kill?

hmmm... wasn't prepared for a mage who had enough hp to survive an acid storm 15d6, a dbf 15d8, a cloudkill ? + 1 archer gunning for him. I had him down to almost dead and cast a 15d6 skull trap at him... little did I know he had a special cloak! vs. skull trap.

Another reason is that I have only one divine caster so can't afford the death wards (do they last all day?)

myro

Hi myro!

Glad it's going well.

I probably wouldn't have had the spell ready either, though I doubt I won the first time either, that map and the preceeding one were really tough .

Another reason is that I have only one divine caster so can't afford the death wards (do they last all day?)

The spell probably wouldn't last that long, but it would outlast the battle at least. It may be something like 1 turn/level, similar to the spell in BGII. Still having trouble with the Knights of Xvim?

Beholders still have death rays, the abilty to dispel magic and turn things to stone from what I remember, but that particular one spends more time on his telekinesis.

I might get rid of my old thief and go for a dual T/F and possibly add Mage to the mix. I quite like my bard so I'll stick with her. One thief mix is enough for HOF, I think. At the moment I have an option granting Sneak attack to thieves on but maybe I'll turn it off and go back to backstab.

Sorry, you can't have a dual T/F/M; that;s only in IWD2. Your only option for that in IWD1 is a multiclass F/M/T, and it will level up like molasses.

One thief mix is definitely enough. Sneak attack is better than backstab, because it's much easier to use. Tip for sneak attack: switch targets after you've sneak attacked an enemy.

I didn't think it was possible .
Does Sneak Attack do equal amounts of damage to Backstab?

I might go multi- F/M/T or more likely T/C as I only have one divine spellcaster.

Oh I didn't know that you could choose modes between Sneak and Backstab. Thats interesting... Backstab does 5x base damage not including strength or elements (thats added at the end though) if you are a 13th level thief. Criticals are also mutliplied!!!

How do hit dice work in IWD1? Is it like 2 where you continue to get full hit dice? Or like BG where after 9th level a fighter gets 3 hp instead of 1d10 + constitution.

If they have too many hp backstabbing is no good. Its no fun to whack a mage for half his hp only to be his next victim

On F/M/T: Ok you get the 100 locks and traps at roughly 85,000 xp so your doing your job as a thief...

Then I'll just say "good things come to those who wait"

M/T is a better mage (9th level spells)

BUT F/M/T hands F/T his ass at higher level (because F/T abilities cap off THACO, backstab, attacks, HP).

Early goodies: Mirror Image!!!! Armor (untill bracers) Blur...Anything the mage does (because unlike IWD2 there is no DC check just a saving throw).

Middle goodies:

Lets call this The revenge of the molasses

Stoneskin at level 7 mage...Now you are the best tank in the party! (note: but watch out if stoneskin wears off ie have Mirror image cast when you are surrounded for redundant defenses). Protection from magical weapons (now your basicly unstoppable). Mislead (now you turn invisible whenever you finish attacking until your decoy is dead which you can cast invisibility on ) Contingency (stoneskin if half hp...later on Mislead (if even hit once)).

High Goodies: forget about it F/Ts My project image can unload my entire spellbook and I don't lose any spells... My simulacrum can read off 9th level scrolls (which aren't lost), cast 5th (eventually 6th) level spells, and fight too (Let the enemy beat on a simulacrums stoneskins and Mirror images...if they kill it who cares you don't even need a cleric).

On backstab vs Sneak attack: If you have easy invisibility such as the spell Mislead consider switching on backstab (if it does more damage at least)... You will get as many or more backstabbing opportunities as you turn invisible after every attack... Only problem is true sight but fortunately enemy AI will probably be casting cure light wounds instead ha ha

But I could be wrong as I don't know the spell selection in IWD1 (but I suspect the balance still is thus: high level mage = awsome, low level mage = an investment in bodyguards)

myrophine

The mode change for sneak attack to backstab (one or the other) is in the config menu. Unfortunately you can't choose between the options in-game. Sneak attack adds 1-6 damage per every two levels, as well as a crippling strike penalty (to attack, and also to movement, I think) of -1 per every four levels of the thief.

Hit dice goes like BG. 1d10 to lvl 9 for warriors + Con bonus, 3 hp and no Con bonus for lvl 10 and up.

Beware that some of the BG spells are not in IWD. No Contingency, no Protection from Magical Weapons, no Mislead, no Project Image, no Simulacrum. Mages aren't nearly as godly in IWD as they are in BG; but they're still pretty good. You do have Improved Invisibility, though, which is a good combo with backstab or sneak attack. No True Sight, although there is Invisibility Purge - which can be countered by Non-Detection (there's a couple items that give it, don't waste a spell slot). There's also a cloak in one of the expansions that gives the power to cast Invisibility 3x per day (I use it to escape combat or to scout for traps while invisible).

T/C is an interesting mix. Be warned that you will be restricted to clerical weapons if you multi or after you dual (even after regaining thief levels).

Btw, I disagree that a F/M/T owns a F/T. Reasons? HP, Thac0, armor. The F/M/T takes a LONG time to level up - yes a lvl 20/20/22 F/M/T may beat a 30/30 F/T, but a F/T with a quick-shooting bow (Bow of Sseth, crossbow of speed, repeating crossbow, long bow: hammer) and magical ammo will turf a F/M/T at most stages of the game unless the F/M/T spends all its 2nd level slots on Mirror Image. Acid arrows and bolts of lightning will take a weakling F/M/T down pretty quickly because their effects ignore Stoneskin.

@myro, You are dependent on the game to release spells- I think there is only ONE stoneskin scroll available in the middle of the game so on that basis maybe I'll go Sorcerer/Thief if avilable (I doubt it is though). IWD1 has none of the really high level protections, illusions and dispellings, it's closer to the IWD2 model. As I already have a mage and bard, I'm more inclined to go T/C or maybe T/D. What about that mix?

@Aerich, I forgot about the weapon restrictions. I suppose that means a T/C or T/D would be restricted to slings for missiles . Druid spells and wildshapes could still compensate though. I thought that Non-Detection trumped True-Sight especially if on an item as a permanent enchantment.

Do either of you know the data on the difference between Sneak Attack vs. Backstab. I know Sneak Attack is easier to use (which is why I have it on ) but which actually does the more damage?

Thanks to both of you

Btw, I disagree that a F/M/T owns a F/T. Reasons? HP, Thac0, armor. The F/M/T takes a LONG time to level up - yes a lvl 20/20/22 F/M/T may beat a 30/30 F/T, but a F/T with a quick-shooting bow (Bow of Sseth, crossbow of speed, repeating crossbow, long bow: hammer) and magical ammo will turf a F/M/T at most stages of the game unless the F/M/T spends all its 2nd level slots on Mirror Image. Acid arrows and bolts of lightning will take a weakling F/M/T down pretty quickly because their effects ignore Stoneskin.

If you are talking IWD1 (which makes a lot of sense since that was what Ravager is playing) I'll bow to your greater knowledge.

But BG2... I'll take the F/M/T any day of the week over the F/T (notice I say BG2 as in BG1 I agree that you level too slow). You start the game with all the locks and traps you need. Its not too long before stoneskin. And yes I DO spend all level 2 slots on Mirror image well almost....also theres spell protections, a cloak of mirroring, a ring of spell turning, staff of the magi etc.

And I always felt a F/M/T had fair HP (it is part fighter).

Also, I mean that a F/M/T is better to the party...not in PvP or something. Enemy AI is stupid. The more options you have (ie spells and items) the more you can exploit that.

At 1 million xp the F/T is level 10/12 while the F/M/T is 9/9/11. I think I would give up 1 thaco, some HP, + 30 or whatever thief skills in return for a 5th, 4th, 3rd, 2nd, and 1st level mage spells....You can still use archery when you need to. And if you need a +6 weapon you have melfs minute meteors for archery. How about area of affect "archery" with fireball? A timely breach is always handy...

At 2 million xp the F/T is level 12/14 while the the F/M/T is 10/11/13 Enter 6th level spells for giving up another thaco and a proficiency...

at 4 million xp the F/T is level 16/19 while the F/M/T is 13/13/16. They both have enough thief skills. They both have enough proficiencies. But now the F/M/T has 7th level spells. They both have gained lots of HLAs (they start at the same xp level).

at 8 million xp the F/T continues to gain useless thaco and thief skill points. While the F/M/T continues to add to spells. Also the F/M/T levels in 3 classes so there are more level ups and more HLAs.

myro

If only spells and items were as available in IWD1 like BGII. *sigh*

No HLA's in IWD either. Shame, really.

In IWD the game decides when you get good spells unlike in BG where you just go to the Promenade, look around and say "Oh, that spell looks good, I'll take it"

As for 2nd level spells, I split between Mirror Image and Horror, both are generally effective.

As I already have 2 arcane spellslingers (casters ) I want to go down the divine route. myro, what do you think of a thief/druid?

BTW, I guess it depends what type of character YOU want to play. Its comparing apples and oranges.

Heres another option...Fighter 9 (7 proficiencies AND grand mastery as an option) dualed to thief. Now you level up in Thief very very fast and you have good hp and grand mastery in bow...

Or go F 13 dual to thief if you can wait that long

cheers

myrophine

I don't know how practical that will be. Considering I will be stuck without a thief in an area infested with locks and traps.

Maybe Thief 9/13 than dual to Fighter...

Thief/Druid? I think that would be sweet but I don't know if you can in 2nd edition rules. I think the only Druid multi or dual class is fighter druid...

Check out the thread I am posting to help me build a party... I NEED some ideas!!!

myro

Hmm... I'll investigate later. You're getting pretty knowledgable about IWD1, aren't you? I don't have a guide for IWD1, unfortunately.

A new party? Have you finished Normal mode, then? Aww, I was going to post some tips for you.

What's wrong with the Hands of Fury, then?

You should be quite good at coming up with a new party. You've just seen all the strengths and weaknesses. Post some of your ideas here and I'll see if I can help. Read your new party thread, I've posted some tips there. I'll post some later on this thread and that one.

Thief/Druid is not possible in IWD1; nor are there sorcerors. That point about the spells is correct - generally two mages in a party is all you can support because of the lack of spell scrolls. You could add a third if you were willing to use a very restricted set of spells. There's only one Fireball and one Stoneskin spell available in the main game (another of each in the expansions).

Take a thief/fighter if you want a scout/trap detector/sniper with weapon skills. Take a M/T if you want spell capability. Take a C/T if you want another divine caster. All of these can be dual class or multiclass - I think the only mc option for T/C is gnome.

I tried a dc T/C but I think you lose the first class abilities until the second reaches the level you dual-classed at. That would effectively leave me without a thief, so I may try again with a multi- C/T gnome.

yeah, I've had the same problem with dual classed thieves.(losing the skills during the "gimp phase".

Some people complain that 6 people is too many...I don't find that to be true although I do agree that 7 would be hard to control and would officially constitute an army rather than a party...I always could use another guy!

An archer is good for machine gunning down wounded guys (and wounding them in the first place). Doesn't even have to run around chasing them.

myrophine

The multiclass C/T seems to be working all right so far. Especially with all the high-level items collected from normal mode.

If you're going for specialised archers, myro, pump the DEX.

What do you have so far? I'll see what I can add if you give me a summary. A bit too detailed for me in the other thread.