If you don't like rap, are you a racist?

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat May 13, 2006 10:47 pm

[QUOTE=Fiona]No it came quite expensive, as it happens.[/QUOTE]

And missed by a mile, too.

Fact continues to rejoice, and belief continues to hmph and assert that it's right because it is.

TonyMontana1638 · Post by **TonyMontana1638** » Sat May 13, 2006 10:53 pm

Wait I just got your objection Fiona for which I apologize: my comment was meant to be cynical, closer to satanism than hedonism but I now see how it easily falls under the latter.

Fiona · Post by **Fiona** » Sat May 13, 2006 10:57 pm

[QUOTE=fable]And missed by a mile, too.

Fact continues to rejoice, and belief continues to hmph and assert that it's right because it is.

[/QUOTE]

Nice. Meaningless in the context, but nice

TonyMontana1638 · Post by **TonyMontana1638** » Sat May 13, 2006 11:00 pm

[QUOTE=Fiona]Nice. Meaningless in the context, but nice

[/QUOTE]
:laugh: :laugh:
Here I was worried I was the only one who thought so... It wouldn't have been the first time something Fable's said has flown over my head completely.

Fiona · Post by **Fiona** » Sat May 13, 2006 11:03 pm

[QUOTE=TonyMontana1638]:laugh: :laugh:
Here I was worried I was the only one who thought so... It wouldn't have been the first time something Fable's said has flown over my head completely.[/QUOTE]

Or under? Just a thought

TonyMontana1638 · Post by **TonyMontana1638** » Sat May 13, 2006 11:05 pm

[QUOTE=Fiona]Or under? Just a thought

[/QUOTE]
Ouch

Wait, you're implying there's medium inferior to the gutter? Explain yourself!

Fiona · Post by **Fiona** » Sat May 13, 2006 11:12 pm

[QUOTE=TonyMontana1638]Ouch

Wait, you're implying there's medium inferior to the gutter? Explain yourself![/QUOTE]

Nah. Where would my mystery be if I did that? None of your business

fable · Post by **fable** » Sun May 14, 2006 8:30 am

[QUOTE=TonyMontana1638]:laugh: :laugh:
Here I was worried I was the only one who thought so... It wouldn't have been the first time something Fable's said has flown over my head completely.[/QUOTE]

You might want to read up a bit, to where Fiona wrote of of nowhere: "DM: For example, Fable says to you that the American government is pursuing the correct policy and that this is a matter of scientific fact," etc. Then you can tell poor little ignorant me how having that thrown at me out of left field made any sense.

Which is why I responded.

But hey, don't let ignoring the accurate source of some remarks get in your way.

Are we still discussing illogic tarring a person with the brush of discrimination? In the US the Idiot Brigade is out in full force. There was even a time, shortly after Chirac decided (admittedly, for purely national reasons; as if our government doesn't do that all the time, as well) to not support the Iraqi invasion, that neo-Cons were equating French with a whole range of evils. If you didn't like American foreign policy, you probably spoke French. If you didn't walk in lockstep and raise a salute to Karl Rove, you were clearly from France. If you didn't accept every measure the executive branch of the US government was proposing, you had French blood in your veins. For some reason, just the insinuation of being French was enough to indicate you were a fool and a traitor.

Vicsun · Post by **Vicsun** » Sun May 14, 2006 9:00 am

[QUOTE=fable]If you didn't accept every measure the executive branch of the US government was proposing, you had French blood in your veins. For some reason, just the insinuation of being French was enough to indicate you were a fool and a traitor.[/QUOTE]
Which, in turn, made Frenchmen supportive of the war very, very confused.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sun May 14, 2006 9:08 am

[QUOTE=Vicsun]Which, in turn, made Frenchmen supportive of the war very, very confused.[/QUOTE]

Very true! But neo-cons are zealots. Like any fringe group of religious bigots, they demonize all members of other groups that fail to support their dogma. It doesn't matter whether individual members of those other groups are more friendly and supportive, or not.

Which in turn leads some of the rebuffed French to regard Americans with disfavor. Though again, it wasn't "Americans" who did this, but only a very small group: neo-con politicians and their pitbull entertainers.

Nuclear chain reactions result, then boom--instant hatred all around. It's very efficient. I don't know why the opposite model fails to work in the same way. Maybe this really is a dream reality, as Mo-Tze considered, or a nightmare.

Lestat · Post by **Lestat** » Sun May 14, 2006 9:14 am

[QUOTE=fable]Are we still discussing illogic tarring a person with the brush of discrimination? In the US the Idiot Brigade is out in full force. There was even a time, shortly after Chirac decided (admittedly, for purely national reasons; as if our government doesn't do that all the time, as well) to not support the Iraqi invasion, that neo-Cons were equating French with a whole range of evils. If you didn't like American foreign policy, you probably spoke French. If you didn't walk in lockstep and raise a salute to Karl Rove, you were clearly from France. If you didn't accept every measure the executive branch of the US government was proposing, you had French blood in your veins. For some reason, just the insinuation of being French was enough to indicate you were a fool and a traitor.[/QUOTE]Makes me wonder why they never gave back the Statue of Liberty to the French...

On the discussion on the article and the problems raised there, I've given up since few people seem to actually have tried to read the article and some of those read things that are not written...
Partially my own fault of course for choosing as a title the title of the link, I should have gone for something else. Another lesson learned.

Ashen · Post by **Ashen** » Sun May 14, 2006 9:18 am

[QUOTE=fable]Which in turn leads some of the rebuffed French to regard Americans with disfavor. Though again, it wasn't "Americans" who did this, but only a very small group: neo-con politicians and their pitbull entertainers.[/QUOTE]

I have to add something here - from that time on, when the whole Iraq business was being decided, and it went how it went, the amount of anthipaty towards Americans as a whole has rather gone up over here. I have noticed that it shifted from - it's not them, it's the govt, to more and more, it's the whole nation. Not a good thing really.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sun May 14, 2006 9:56 am

[QUOTE=Ashen]I have to add something here - from that time on, when the whole Iraq business was being decided, and it went how it went, the amount of anthipaty towards Americans as a whole has rather gone up over here. I have noticed that it shifted from - it's not them, it's the govt, to more and more, it's the whole nation. Not a good thing really.[/QUOTE]

No, but perfectly and unfortunately human. We tend to generalize, understandably, because it is part of our learning process: we understand the realworld through sensory specifics, and from there, we extend: if that flame that burns us in early childhood is dangerously hot, other flames will likely be dangerously hot, too. But like any tool, generalization only works properly under certain conditions. Elsewhere, it inhibits gaining knowledge. It can actually cause a decline in our awareness, and lead us into all sorts of errors.

I'm reminded of a book written by a Turkish scholar about Western European civilization, during the 16th century. (I've only read excerpts of it, translated and quoted by another source.) It included a brilliant and lengthy exposition on the debates in Christianity between the Orthodox and Arian views, but these were stated as though they were contemporary, rather than having occurred back in the 7th century. Similarly, even notable Christian scholars in Western Europe assumed through at least the 14th century that the followers of Islam worshipped Apollo, and wrote so, in print. Demonization of one's enemies leads directly in my opinion to fundamental mistakes about them, and indirectly to maintaining them as enemies.

It's all so futile.

Chimaera182 · Post by **Chimaera182** » Sun May 14, 2006 11:29 am

[QUOTE=fable]Are we still discussing illogic tarring a person with the brush of discrimination? In the US the Idiot Brigade is out in full force. There was even a time, shortly after Chirac decided (admittedly, for purely national reasons; as if our government doesn't do that all the time, as well) to not support the Iraqi invasion, that neo-Cons were equating French with a whole range of evils. If you didn't like American foreign policy, you probably spoke French. If you didn't walk in lockstep and raise a salute to Karl Rove, you were clearly from France. If you didn't accept every measure the executive branch of the US government was proposing, you had French blood in your veins. For some reason, just the insinuation of being French was enough to indicate you were a fool and a traitor.[/QUOTE]
And this resulted in the ever-popular and extremely well-thought out proposition of renaming French Fries to Freedom Fries. Score one for our people.

[QUOTE=Lestat]Makes me wonder why they never gave back the Statue of Liberty to the French...[/QUOTE]
Because the Statue of Liberty is a sign of American freedoms, American liberties, American ingenuity... well, okay, French ingenuity, but the neo-Cons probably don't even know that. I imagine it'd be quite a shock to them if they did know.

[QUOTE=fable]I'm reminded of a book written by a Turkish scholar about Western European civilization, during the 16th century. (I've only read excerpts of it, translated and quoted by another source.) It included a brilliant and lengthy exposition on the debates in Christianity between the Orthodox and Arian views, but these were stated as though they were contemporary, rather than having occurred back in the 7th century. Similarly, even notable Christian scholars in Western Europe assumed through at least the 14th century that the followers of Islam worshipped Apollo, and wrote so, in print. Demonization of one's enemies leads directly in my opinion to fundamental mistakes about them, and indirectly to maintaining them as enemies.[/QUOTE]
Oh, humans are quite adapt at demonizing their enemies. But why Apollo? Apollo was a god of logic and reason, wasn't he? Sounds more like a compliment to me, especially since the Christian God is hardly ever represented as such. :laugh:

fable · Post by **fable** » Sun May 14, 2006 11:44 am

Chimaera182 wrote:And this resulted in the ever-popular and extremely well-thought out proposition of renaming French Fries to Freedom Fries. Score one for our people.

History repeats itself. Back during WWI, sauerkraut was renamed "liberty cabbage."

Oh, humans are quite adapt at demonizing their enemies. But why Apollo? Apollo was a god of logic and reason, wasn't he? Sounds more like a compliment to me, especially since the Christian God is hardly ever represented as such. :laugh:

Not logic; the Greeks, at least before Aristotle, had little concept of this. Apollo was the god of the sun, the arts, and inspiration. As to how they arrived at Islam=Apollo worship, again, we're dealing with demonization, so where does fact fit in? It would only get in the way. Remember, even today you'll find the gods of other peoples, past and present, ignored by Islamic, Jewish and Christian schools who instead point to places or objects where they were worshipped/celebrated--and these in turn are called "idols."

TonyMontana1638 · Post by **TonyMontana1638** » Sun May 14, 2006 11:47 am

[QUOTE=fable]History repeats itself. Back during WWI, sauerkraut was renamed "liberty cabbage."[/QUOTE]
I vowed to leave this thread alone, but please tell me that's a joke.

Chimaera182 · Post by **Chimaera182** » Sun May 14, 2006 12:08 pm

[QUOTE=fable]History repeats itself. Back during WWI, sauerkraut was renamed "liberty cabbage."

Not logic; the Greeks, at least before Aristotle, had little concept of this. Apollo was the god of the sun, the arts, and inspiration. As to how they arrived at Islam=Apollo worship, again, we're dealing with demonization, so where does fact fit in? It would only get in the way. Remember, even today you'll find the gods of other peoples, past and present, ignored by Islamic, Jewish and Christian schools who instead point to places or objects where they were worshipped/celebrated--and these in turn are called "idols."[/QUOTE]
I had a feeling I was wrong. I remember in my Critical Approaches to Literature class, we discussed some things, and I forget where it was in the class, but at one point we dissected works of art/literature as either being Apolloian and Dionysian (one is the result of reason and intellect, the other the result of passion). Hence why I asked if Apollo was the god of reason and logic. It still made for a funny joke, considering comparing it to the Christian God. At least give me that.

As you said, though, there's no place for fact in the demonization of Muslims. And I recall a funny joke on Computer Stupidities about "icons." A Protestant (I think) was on tech support and the tech support guy told him to click the icon; the Protestant went berserk on him. Just an odd little thing I thought of when I read and these in turn are called "idols."

[QUOTE=TonyMontana1638]I vowed to leave this thread alone, but please tell me that's a joke.[/QUOTE]
You know how sometimes something is so stupid it can't be made up? It's so ridiculous it has to be true? That soooo is one of those. I believe that, seriously.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sun May 14, 2006 12:15 pm

[QUOTE=Chimaera182]I remember in my Critical Approaches to Literature class, we discussed some things, and I forget where it was in the class, but at one point we dissected works of art/literature as either being Apolloian and Dionysian (one is the result of reason and intellect, the other the result of passion). Hence why I asked if Apollo was the god of reason and logic. It still made for a funny joke, considering comparing it to the Christian God. At least give me that.

As you said, though, there's no place for fact in the demonization of Muslims. And I recall a funny joke on Computer Stupidities about "icons." A Protestant (I think) was on tech support and the tech support guy told him to click the icon; the Protestant went berserk on him. Just an odd little thing I thought of when I read and these in turn are called "idols.".[/QUOTE]

I think the Protestant icon joke was the funnier of the two. Got a laugh out of me on it.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sun May 14, 2006 5:16 pm

[QUOTE=TonyMontana1638]I vowed to leave this thread alone, but please tell me that's a joke.[/QUOTE]

Not at all, sadly. I don't know which genius first thought of it, but it was an idea during WWI that quickly caught on: sauerkraut was rechristened Liberty Cabbage throughout the US. To have left it otherwise would have branded the offending merchant "unpatriotic." Note this was the same general period that saw the first Red Scare, which is hardly mentioned in books.

One good quote I've found long in the past was by Samuel Johnson: "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." True, but it is also the first and proudest dwelling place of small-minded bigots, everywhere.

TonyMontana1638 · Post by **TonyMontana1638** » Sun May 14, 2006 6:29 pm

[QUOTE=fable]Not at all, sadly. I don't know which genius first thought of it, but it was an idea during WWI that quickly caught on: sauerkraut was rechristened Liberty Cabbage throughout the US. To have left it otherwise would have branded the offending merchant "unpatriotic." Note this was the same general period that saw the first Red Scare, which is hardly mentioned in books.[/QUOTE]
People are stupid.