The Cheese Guild

NeKr0mAnCeR · Post by **NeKr0mAnCeR** » Sat Aug 04, 2001 4:00 am

im currently in the drow city (i did EVERYTHING on chap 2 even twisted rune, but i think i missed the murders in the brige district so now i only need my monk and my undead hunter(carsomyr rulez)) i casted 2 gates in the middle of town lots of destruction they killed evrone so now i dont get quests. got to reload...

BTW in the strategy guide (i think) the guy says he only found 1 rouge stone, he must be either blind or he needs to go to a medic realy soon. i found 8 so far! (and im still in the underdark)

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Sat Aug 04, 2001 4:37 am

Originally posted by spork:
Maybe we should wait a bit for others to expand it and then begin a new cheese-guild-sponsored thread called "cheese or not a cheese" where we number the items and ask people to vote.

Nice plan. This Guild is too full of Spam to gather cheese properly (referring to the Kobold stuff here

)

Originally posted by spork:
You did mention swapping equipment during combat, but it might make a difference whether a character is equipping something from her own inventory and from someone else's.

Not just that, although the Boots of Grounding comes quite close. I was also thinking about equipping the Ring of Free Action the moment some enemy Cleric throws a Hold Person at you (while the 'missile' is in flight), swapping in the Amulet of Power for a non-existant amount of time simply to remove Silence. Or dual wielding until you have made all your allowed attacks for the round, then switching to a shield to wait for the start of the next round.

NeKr0mAnCeR · Post by **NeKr0mAnCeR** » Sat Aug 04, 2001 5:41 am

need opinion:

1)is using lower resist + greater maliolism + feeblemind on dragons cheese?

2) cast prot evil 10' + gate + wizard eye to lure the deamon where you want is cheese? (think so)

[ 08-04-2001: Message edited by: NeKr0mAnCeR ]

spork · Post by **spork** » Sat Aug 04, 2001 12:09 pm

How about:

[*] Relying on internet walkthroughs to advance past certain areas.
[*] In ToB, calling forth NPCs like Jan and Haer'Dalis just to take their pesonal-use-only gear and give it to a party member who can "use any item."[*] Giving all the party's fancy items to a PC, exporting, and then importing that PC into a Multiplayer party which already owns those items, effectively doubling them up.

Fezek · Post by **Fezek** » Sat Aug 04, 2001 12:43 pm

Originally posted by NeKr0mAnCeR:
need opinion:

1)is using lower resist + greater maliolism + feeblemind on dragons cheese?

2) cast prot evil 10' + gate + wizard eye to lure the deamon where you want is cheese? (think so)

[ 08-04-2001: Message edited by: NeKr0mAnCeR ]

IMHO

1)-no

2)-no

NeKr0mAnCeR · Post by **NeKr0mAnCeR** » Sat Aug 04, 2001 1:27 pm

great cause ive been doing it the whole game

KillerKid · Post by **KillerKid** » Sat Aug 04, 2001 1:31 pm

those 2 are more of a good stradegy personaly i dont think there is that much difrence in cheese and good tacticts most of the time except in the manner of only certain things work certain times in bg1 there is a MAJOR cheese where you can kill drizzt bu luring him up w/ a river and pelting missles at him making you well basicaly be able to win at level 1 with ALOT of arrows/bolts/pellets hehe now THAT is major cheese

Garrett · Post by **Garrett** » Sat Aug 04, 2001 1:58 pm

What do you guys think about sancturary and blade barrier? Cheese or Cheat? My vote goes for cheese but it is on the thin line between the two.

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Sat Aug 04, 2001 1:59 pm

Originally posted by NeKr0mAnCeR:
is using lower resist + greater maliolism + feeblemind on dragons cheese?

Only if you do it on a non-hostile Dragon...

Originally posted by NeKr0mAnCeR:
cast prot evil 10' + gate + wizard eye to lure the deamon where you want is cheese?

Pit Fiends aren't the smartest, so I don't see why you couldn't get away with it. Using Wizard Eye to tank against Dragons et al is another matter, though.

Originally posted by spork:
Relying on internet walkthroughs to advance past certain areas.

Toughie, since advance knowledge (usually) doesn't carry over to PnP. I'd say it depends on the situation. In PnP, there are loads of ways to gain hints (divination, asking around, spying) that are not available in BG. Also, PnP offers far more alternatives to deal with 'stuck' points. Don't have the key? Teleport to the other side, or take a week to chop through the door.

Originally posted by spork:
In ToB, calling forth NPCs like Jan and Haer'Dalis just to take their pesonal-use-only gear and give it to a party member who can "use any item."

Nope. If you're supposed to save the world, Haer'Dalis should put his big ego aside and just give you the damn things.

Originally posted by spork:
Giving all the party's fancy items to a PC, exporting, and then importing that PC into a Multiplayer party which already owns those items, effectively doubling them up.

Yes! You couldn't slip that one past any sane DM.

polaris · Post by **polaris** » Sat Aug 04, 2001 2:10 pm

Here's a cheese tactic for you (albeit a very MINOR one compared to what you have been discussing).

Do you like the high level druid spells (insect plague, summon fire elemental, creeping doom, nature's beauty), but you can't stand the Druidic XP table?

How is *this* for cheese:

Start the game as a ranger (any kit will do..pick the one that gives you the abilities you want). Go up to a moderate level (9 is good), and then dual over to cleric.

You will be able to specialize (2 dots) in all clerical weapons, and you will have FAR more spells than a straight druid will ever have, AND you will get *all* of those neato Druidic spells (not to mention a better armor and weapon selection).

The only drawbacks I see are:

1. You will not be able to shapeshift (not a big loss IMO)

2. You will never be able to summon elemental princes directly.

-Polaris

Fezek · Post by **Fezek** » Sat Aug 04, 2001 2:34 pm

Originally posted by polaris:
Here's a cheese tactic for you (albeit a very MINOR one compared to what you have been discussing).

Do you like the high level druid spells (insect plague, summon fire elemental, creeping doom, nature's beauty), but you can't stand the Druidic XP table?

How is *this* for cheese:

Start the game as a ranger (any kit will do..pick the one that gives you the abilities you want). Go up to a moderate level (9 is good), and then dual over to cleric.

You will be able to specialize (2 dots) in all clerical weapons, and you will have FAR more spells than a straight druid will ever have, AND you will get *all* of those neato Druidic spells (not to mention a better armor and weapon selection).

The only drawbacks I see are:

1. You will not be able to shapeshift (not a big loss IMO)

2. You will never be able to summon elemental princes directly.

-Polaris

Compared tom the existence of a Kensai/mage, that is positvely sound RPG stratergy.

polaris · Post by **polaris** » Sat Aug 04, 2001 2:43 pm

Yeah, but I think it is bonafide cheese because why should you be a druid when you can dual-class a ranger and get the SAME spells for with a much better XP table?

-Polaris

Fezek · Post by **Fezek** » Sat Aug 04, 2001 2:51 pm

Good point. But since I don't for the life of me understand why the Druid Xp table is the way it is, the Ranger/Cleric seems a more sensible option. Now if somebody could explain the reasoning behind the Druid XP table, I would be able to give you a better answer.

polaris · Post by **polaris** » Sat Aug 04, 2001 3:00 pm

I can answer part of that. The druid XP table is the way it is because they copied it DIRECTLY from the AD&D 2nd Ed Rules.

A bit of history:

Originally, 14th level was the top level a druid could get *ever*. Much later they added 15th level with a massive XP hike (and a exponential increase in spell casting) and called it the grand druid (as opposed to great druid). It was Unearth Arcana that came up with the Heirophant levels and the final druidic XP table (that got carried over in 2nd ED).

The problem is that in PnP, a Ranger/Cleric (multi or dual) does NOT get druidic spells as a cleric (they get them for their ranger slots only). Since that apparently was too hard to impliment, the Ranger/Cleric (dual or multi) gets both the clerical and druidic spell pools which means you can raise dead AND cast insect plague...which is why it is cheese.

-Polaris

Fezek · Post by **Fezek** » Sat Aug 04, 2001 3:43 pm

Cheers! But what I don't understand is the need for such an enormous increase in XP to go from lvl 14 to lvl 15. It doesn't seem to me that the druid gains any superior spells or abilities. From what I can read, he gets one extra lvl 7 spell. 1.5 million xp's for one more lvl 7 spell and poison immunity seems ..odd. Then, to really make things more confusing, it the Xp for lvl 15 to 16 is only 150000. This doesn't make sense.

Fezek · Post by **Fezek** » Sat Aug 04, 2001 3:51 pm

Oops! Just read the ToB table for Druid spell progression. Boy, do I look a hooter.

ThorinOakensfield · Post by **ThorinOakensfield** » Sat Aug 04, 2001 8:38 pm

i thought cheesemage was the only person obbsessed with cheese. I guess not.

THE JAKER · Post by **THE JAKER** » Sat Aug 04, 2001 9:11 pm

I don't think there's anything wrong with ranger/dual cleric to get druid spells - the extra spells are just one part of the druid package. However, I personally find that insect plague is just too cheesy - if it works, the battle is over. That's no fun!

Right now I'm working on a game without Keldorn or Carsomyr - now THAT's interesting! All those mages that I usually just sicced Keldy on are buggggging!

On the dragon malison / lower resist / feeblemind / flesh to stone / disintegrate thing - spells like feeblemind and disintegrate aren't cheese, and malison and doom EXIST to lower saves so that tough monsters can be hit with saving throw spells. The cheese comes in when you:

cast doom more than once (it's not supposed to stack)

cast cleric spell "Magic Resistance" on a blue circle dragon with Aerie to automatically lower resistance to 20% without turning the dragon hostile...Now THAT's Cheesy!

And Xyx, how dare you call this thread "too full of spam"!

[ 08-04-2001: Message edited by: THE JAKER ]

polaris · Post by **polaris** » Sat Aug 04, 2001 11:17 pm

JAKER,

I think that using the Ranger/Cleric combo to get Druidic spells is pure cheese (although of a mild variety).

You say that there is more to being a Druid than the spells. Ok, let's look at it....why would a person pick a Druid over a Cleric?

1. Weapons? While clerics are restricted to blunt weapons, the clerical weapon selection is actually *better* than the Druid's. [Druids get scimitars, but Clerics get flails and warhammers....]

2. Armor? Clerics get better armor than Druids hands down.

3. Shapeshifting? I have *yet* to use shapeshifting in the later stages of the game as a Druid. The shapeshifted form is usually weaker than your base form.

4. Spells.....ah here we come down to it. Druids get some great defensive and natural spells like Ironskin, Insect Plague, Creeping Doom, Nature's Beauty, and Elemental Summoning that are much better than their clerical equivalent.

5. Being close to nature (and getting nature spells).

Of the five catagories, only 4 and 5 are compelling reasons to take the Druid over a cleric. The reason the Ranger/Cleric is cheese is that this dual gets spells that NEITHER a ranger NOR a cleric can get....and is better than a Druid in all five catagories.

-Polaris

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Sun Aug 05, 2001 2:19 am

Originally posted by THE JAKER:
I don't think there's anything wrong with ranger/dual cleric to get druid spells

Well, you said it.

They're Druid spells, which no Ranger or Cleric is ever supposed to get. Only reason you get them is because the engine does not allow for two different types of priest spell slots. It should have been (and is, in PnP) like wizard spells and priest spells; separate screen for each.

Originally posted by THE JAKER:
Xyx, how dare you call this thread "too full of spam"!

Hmm... We have one page filled with good, solid, on-topic discussion (this page), and one page about overkilling Kobolds (which doesn't even faintly resemble Cheese, IMHO).