Originally posted by Osiris: A coincidence this topic reappearing. Yesterday an Australian school, Sunshine Coast Christian Outreach College, announced it was banning "Harry Potter" books from its library because they mention demons and wizardry - it seems a lot of people can't tell fact from fantasy. If you really want to, I suppose you could find evil almost anywhere.
The Harry Potter books *are* the work of the devil
"Greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his pants for his friends."
Enchantress is my Goddess.
Few survive in the Heart of Fury...
Gamebanshee: [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/"]Make your gaming scream![/url]
Gruntboy is... (yes, I will say the truth, and G.O.D. will love me for that... he shall take me to heaven and I 'l have all the girlz and booze and bleeding honey for an eternity) ...well, he is...
Devil's Avatar!!!
here, I said it. It is truth. I swear to the mighty Cthuluh
I didn't think it was possible but Harry Potter both sucks AND blows. Whiney little 4-eyed sod, I see grown ups reading it on the underground day-in, day-out. Annoying cr*p it is. Looks like 'where's waldo' with dragons. "ooh, what's happened to Harry's girlfriend???" Like I give a hoot. Find out from your kids, don't read it yourself, I say. New Tolkein? My a$$! LOTR had wars and barbarians and undead armies and death and disease and destruction and greed. No poncy names neither - Goblet of fire? More like Farts of flames or Gouts of gas.
Is that enough?
"Greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his pants for his friends."
Enchantress is my Goddess.
Few survive in the Heart of Fury...
Gamebanshee: [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/"]Make your gaming scream![/url]
You guys make very good points, especially Maurice and Buck, but I wanted to add my 2 cents (to borrow from Ron). I consider myself fairly religious, but very left-wing because of my belief in the religious concepts of compassion and social justice. Certainly the religious right in my country (the US) and much of the world is growing. Much of this is a reaction to what they perceive as an increasingly immoral society (evidenced by high crime, absentee parents, etc.). Likewise, many of their efforts at improving the immorality of this society (with the result of decreasing crime, improving education, giving kids a loving environment to grow up in) come off as heavy-handed measures of reducing your freedoms (no Harry Potter, AD&D, violent movies, etc.). My point is that, although their actions appear extreme, many of them have worthwhile goals as the root of their actions.
Personally, however, I think the religious right has good goals, but accomplishes those goals poorly. They spend way too much time fighting beliefs in magic and witches (old battles, no one realy believes in witches anymore) and evolution (new battle). These efforts are wasted. They should be focussing on the billion malnourished people in the world, or the 5000 kids a year in the US that are killed by guns, or the massive damage that we are doing to our Earth's climate. If they want to improve their world and community (which I believe they do), then start taking on real issues and leave Harry Potter alone. The Harry Potter series has single-handedly improved the literacy rate of 5-10 year-old-children in most English speaking countries, and THAT will pay big dividends for the health and well-being of our world for years to come.
[This message has been edited by Doltan (edited 01-24-2001).]
"But I also made it clear to [Vladimir Putin] that it's important to think beyond the old days of when we had the concept that if we blew each other up, the world would be safe." -President George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., May 1, 2001
Originally posted by Doltan: These efforts are wasted. They should be focussing on the billion malnourished people in the world, or the 5000 kids a year in the US that are killed by guns, or the massive damage that we are doing to our Earth's climate. If they want to improve their world and community (which I believe they do), then start taking on real issues and leave Harry Potter alone. The Harry Potter series has single-handedly improved the literacy rate of 5-10 year-old-children in most English speaking countries, and THAT will pay big dividends for the health and well-being of our world for years to come.
I'm not attacking HP for religious reasons, IMHO it is a pile of sh*te . I've not seen any 5-10 year olds reading it, more like 25-40 year olds ("erm... its for my kid"). And you assume that being able to read English is good for your economy? Please.
And how is reading English comparable to starvation, violent crime and environmental pollution? Different kettles of fish their matey. I also resent the implication that 5000 US gun deaths is mentioned on a par with 1 bn malnourished people.
"Greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his pants for his friends."
Enchantress is my Goddess.
Few survive in the Heart of Fury...
Gamebanshee: [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/"]Make your gaming scream![/url]
Gruntboy: I wasn't referring to your HP comments, but rather to the banning of HP in many communities in the US.
As for the other comments, please understand that I in no way equate a billion malnourished people to 5000 gun deaths. But the issue is that every person has responsibilities on the personal (i.e. work at a soup kitchen), community (pass tougher gun laws), and world (work to relieve third world debt) levels. As for literacy improving the world (a grand statement), there are tons of studies that indicate a correlation between higher literacy and lower levels of violent crime, better access to proper nourishment (sustainable agriculture, improved income), better conditions for women and children, etc.
There are actually quite a few convincing statistics on it -- check out the International Monetary Fund (www.imf.org) or Worldwatch Institute's (www.worldwatch.org) web sites for links to some of the things I'm talking about.
"But I also made it clear to [Vladimir Putin] that it's important to think beyond the old days of when we had the concept that if we blew each other up, the world would be safe." -President George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., May 1, 2001
Well, it's not like they can ban it from bookstores or anything. It's just that certain communites have very powerful parents associations which can get it banned from public and school libraries. Also, some teachers wanted it on their reading lists, and that was shot down in many places. The United States can be a wierd place to live, with both tremendous freedom and odd, puritan, restrictions.
"But I also made it clear to [Vladimir Putin] that it's important to think beyond the old days of when we had the concept that if we blew each other up, the world would be safe." -President George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., May 1, 2001
Brace yourselves for the truth. Dungeons and Dragons IS Satanic, or rather it's Luciferian. Satan is the Judeo-Christian equivalent of Maitreya or Lucifer, the World's Teacher, the "Bringer of Light" (Lucifer, from the Latin meaning "bearer of light" or "illuminator"). Lucifer has been vilified by the Judeo-Christian (heh "JC") world because all those who accept what he has to teach realize that the establishment's religions are nothing more than tools of the "illuminati" to control the opiated masses (Marxist reference). Yes, the Illuminati (Pope John Paul II, George W, Tony Blair, etc.) are in fact Luciferians themselves, since they know the truth. Thus most atheists and agnostics and "Seekers" (those who still search for God, such as myself) are Luciferians since we've thrown off the shackles of ignorance and dogma. Believe only that which you percieve with a clear and sober mind. (Note: I am merely personifying Lucifer, for he never did exist as any sort of eternal, omnipotent being)
Devil-worshippers/Satanists are just as Judeo-Christian as the religious fanatics of the world because they believe in all the dogma and mythology that has been handed down generation after generation. True occultists are Luciferian by default, without even trying. So what makes one an occultist? Etymologically, "occult" means "hidden", and indeed D&D is hidden and privileged information. One is indoctrinated in D&D and fantasy's lore (Tolkien, Robert Jordan, Science Fiction too) just as one would be indoctrinated into a pagan cult in ancient times. We all know there's nothing wrong with it, but can't you understand how it could scare religious fundamentalists? According to their frame of reference, D&D IS undoubtedly "Satanic" (their term, not mine). I don't want to get into many of the details of D&D lore over the past twenty-some years, but there are lots of aspects of this game that must appear to be totally evil and unholy to these close-minded buffoons, eh? How about the hierarchy of demons and devils in the old Monster Manuals? I don't play PnP anymore so I don't know if there are any modern day equivalents. Asmodeus, Geryon, Tiamat, these names bring chills to Baptists' hearts, bloody tears to Catholics' eyes.
So fellow occultists, the next time Joe Know-It-All tries to call you a heathen, say you're damn proud of it too, because God knows you're not a pawn. You play Baldur's Gate II.
I see the right, and I approve it too; condemn the wrong and yet the wrong pursue.
Doltan - I took a little time to reflect on your other statements. Although convincing (your argument is eloquently put, BTW) do you not think that the ultimate aims of improving human well-being might be more easily met through essentials other than literacy? Specifically the 3 core elements to human survival - food, shelter, and clothing.
Literacy seems like more of a 1st world luxury.
Re: the post before this one... God bless those heathens!
[This message has been edited by Gruntboy (edited 01-24-2001).]
"Greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his pants for his friends."
Enchantress is my Goddess.
Few survive in the Heart of Fury...
Gamebanshee: [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/"]Make your gaming scream![/url]
Gruntboy, I completely agree that food, water, housing, etc. are probably more important than literacy. It just so happens that improved literacy correlates well with improvements in those other things.
Now statistics are funny, because the question is whether those other things lead to improved literacy or literacy leads to improvements in food, housing, etc. Well, I've read a number of studies (I'm a chemist, but I play sociologist sometimes), where they actually believe that first increasing literacy can lead to improvements in those other things. For example, in Afghanistan, a condition for foreign aid has been that the Afghani government provide education to its girls (it's a big problem). It's been observed that educating girls is one of the best means of alleviating poverty, probably because it gives girls and women power to decide when and under what conditions they choose to have children. Having children later is much better economically for both the woman (better education, better jobs) and children (a more stable environment, better access to health care and food). I'm drastically simplifying and summarizing the study, but I believe that is the essence of the idea behind this one specific example. There are many other examples where improved literacy can help in more economically advantaged countries, of course.
"But I also made it clear to [Vladimir Putin] that it's important to think beyond the old days of when we had the concept that if we blew each other up, the world would be safe." -President George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., May 1, 2001
I'l have to watch it when I'm arguing with you in the future, you're a clever one chemistry-boy
Very good points indeed. However, don't you find it ironic that in more literate societies there is recent upward trend in teenage pregnancies? The reverse concept of literacy, housing etc. perhaps adding to the political socialisation of women and hence increasing their choice. Although it could be argued that literacy is actually *falling* in may western countries - adding weight to the ideas you proposed.
Bet all you dirty dogs out there didn't know I could talk like that eh?
"Greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his pants for his friends."
Enchantress is my Goddess.
Few survive in the Heart of Fury...
Gamebanshee: [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/"]Make your gaming scream![/url]
I believe that a missing page from the bible was recently found in Turkey. It reads "all characters and events portrayed within are ficticious and any resembelance to persons living or dead is unintentional"
9 out of 10 anorexics prefer E-Mail to the US postal service.
Phil? that name rings a bell......
And its AD&D 2 edition, 3rd edition rules in a RPG game will be Neverwinter Nights our Pool of Radiance, Ruins of Myth Drannor.
BG II uses AD&D 2 edition rules.
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"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not became a monster... when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss gazes into you..."
Friedrich Nietzsche
