Anatomy of a GameBanshee Forum Member: Describe Yourself
@CE: A philosophical debate. Excellent.
You make some interesting points. Let's take them one at a time. First, it didn't mean to create a firestorm, so I apologize if my brief (and abbreviated) response created misunderstandings. Second, you are exactly correct in saying that my reply to fable's question was not nuanced. Given the constraints of medium and my (perhaps erroneous) perception that it was a little off-topic, I gave a kind of nanoscopic readers digest version. As to my background, I worked in medical research for four years. Though I enjoyed my time in the ivory tower, the standards and perceptions there do not reflect the realities of actual practice in the front lines of medicine. I worked in "academic" hospital-based medicine for 12 years and I am not hostile to it. It is a valuable resource and we have an extensive network of oncologists, radiologist, dermatologist, gastroenterologist, etc. that we refer to and utilize extensively in our practice. However, in that 12 year period I did not see anything, philosophically, that convinced me that it had changed from the 1950's. Yes, it has advanced technologically, and no I am not suggesting we abandon it. What has occurred, IMHO, is that, like any monolithic socioeconomic institution, it has grafted pieces of alternative medicine onto itself (what you cannot suppress, consume), but as I will argue later, it does not possess the philosophic underpinnings to underwrite this attempted merger. I also want to be clear that I am not defending the whole of alternative medicine, only naturopathic medicine.
I also agree that we should define terms. Since, to give one example, acupuncture pre-dated the current form of Western medicine by approximately 4800 years, I feel that tradition medicine more accurate reflects the various indigenous medical systems sometimes incorporated under the umbrella term "alternative medicine." In deference to your views, I will use the term "academic" or biomedicine to refer to Western conventional medicine and alternative medicine to refer to various holistic practices.
Dualism can be defined as belief that mental things and physical things are fundamentally distinct kinds of entities. Reductionism can be defined as the belief that statements or expressions of one sort can be replaced systematically by statements or expressions of a simpler or more certain kind. To link the two, dualism (as defined by Descarte) says that there are two types of things: mind and matter, that can best be understood through the strategy of reductionism: take the object under study and reduce it to its simplest components, then analyze them step by step to see how they recombine to form the original object. Each had an important part to play in the evolution of medicine. For example, dualism (in this case, viewing the body as dead matter vs a vehicle for the soul) allowed the nascent field of medicine to pull away from the suppressive influence of the Church. I agree with fable that Bohr, Heisenberg, etc. would be spinning in their graves at the idea of their theoretical work supporting "New Age" therapies. However, if you reread my post, you will see I was careful not to write that alternative medicine is supported by the theories of Bohr and Hiesenberg, a often made and spurious claim in my opinion, only that (in this specific instance) naturopathic medicine's position was given philosophical structure by an explanatory strategy advanced by them. An explanatory strategy can be defined as "heuristic or pragmatically adopted metaphysical concept by which to approach the world." In short, I am attempting to compare two world views: one advanced by Descarte, Bacon, Galileo, and Newton and the other advanced by the adherents of quantum physics. In my mind, this is philosophically appropriate and defensible. Otherwise, why not simply revert to solipsism and be done with it?
I did write that interactionalistic, indeterministic, and nonlinear philosophical operatives support naturopathic medicine (I did not include multifactorial theory constructs). I stated this because academic medicine is based on an explanatory strategy defined by reductionism, dualism, mechanistic materialism and so on. That is to say, it based on a classical science design. This explanatory strategy engenders the first, or foundational, tier of a three tiered model. The second tier is comprised of the basic biophysical sciences that are exemplars of the work within this world view/model/ paradigm. For example classical thermodynamics, molecular biology, etc. The first and second tiers mutually influence each other and, taken together, define the paradigm for the subject of inquiry. The third tier is the applied medical sciences, supported by the operational directives of the first two tiers, that define, in this case, academic medicine (pathophysiology, histology, etc.). The summation of the three tiers have been called the biomedical model. In their excellent book, The Second Medical Revolution, Lawrence Foss and Kenneth Rothenberg amply document the reality of this viewpoint, arguing that the biomedical model, while scientific, is flawed and inappropriate apply to human beings. Interactionalism, indeterminism, etc. defined the explanatory strategy for a more appropriate medical model or what they call the infomedical design. While academic medicine, like Rome, grafts various alternative medicine practices into its "empire" it is, at its core, "Roman" and no amount of feel-good propaganda can make it otherwise. Likewise, naturopathic medicine is inherently "ecological." This doesn't make it better, just as natural supplements are not necessarily better than synthetic forms of medicine. It makes it different, and, with an adequate amount of mature intelligence, synergistic with academic medicine. While philosophically I feel that academic medicine is flawed, and at time injurious in its execution, pragmatically I understand the medicine is first and foremost an empirical undertaking. When my patient has asthma, TB, cancer or whatever, I don't really care about philosophical niceties. I care that my patient is returned to health or, as least, to their highest level of function. Realistically, I feel the two systems can, and should, work together. That would be a quest worth undertaking.
You make some interesting points. Let's take them one at a time. First, it didn't mean to create a firestorm, so I apologize if my brief (and abbreviated) response created misunderstandings. Second, you are exactly correct in saying that my reply to fable's question was not nuanced. Given the constraints of medium and my (perhaps erroneous) perception that it was a little off-topic, I gave a kind of nanoscopic readers digest version. As to my background, I worked in medical research for four years. Though I enjoyed my time in the ivory tower, the standards and perceptions there do not reflect the realities of actual practice in the front lines of medicine. I worked in "academic" hospital-based medicine for 12 years and I am not hostile to it. It is a valuable resource and we have an extensive network of oncologists, radiologist, dermatologist, gastroenterologist, etc. that we refer to and utilize extensively in our practice. However, in that 12 year period I did not see anything, philosophically, that convinced me that it had changed from the 1950's. Yes, it has advanced technologically, and no I am not suggesting we abandon it. What has occurred, IMHO, is that, like any monolithic socioeconomic institution, it has grafted pieces of alternative medicine onto itself (what you cannot suppress, consume), but as I will argue later, it does not possess the philosophic underpinnings to underwrite this attempted merger. I also want to be clear that I am not defending the whole of alternative medicine, only naturopathic medicine.
I also agree that we should define terms. Since, to give one example, acupuncture pre-dated the current form of Western medicine by approximately 4800 years, I feel that tradition medicine more accurate reflects the various indigenous medical systems sometimes incorporated under the umbrella term "alternative medicine." In deference to your views, I will use the term "academic" or biomedicine to refer to Western conventional medicine and alternative medicine to refer to various holistic practices.
Dualism can be defined as belief that mental things and physical things are fundamentally distinct kinds of entities. Reductionism can be defined as the belief that statements or expressions of one sort can be replaced systematically by statements or expressions of a simpler or more certain kind. To link the two, dualism (as defined by Descarte) says that there are two types of things: mind and matter, that can best be understood through the strategy of reductionism: take the object under study and reduce it to its simplest components, then analyze them step by step to see how they recombine to form the original object. Each had an important part to play in the evolution of medicine. For example, dualism (in this case, viewing the body as dead matter vs a vehicle for the soul) allowed the nascent field of medicine to pull away from the suppressive influence of the Church. I agree with fable that Bohr, Heisenberg, etc. would be spinning in their graves at the idea of their theoretical work supporting "New Age" therapies. However, if you reread my post, you will see I was careful not to write that alternative medicine is supported by the theories of Bohr and Hiesenberg, a often made and spurious claim in my opinion, only that (in this specific instance) naturopathic medicine's position was given philosophical structure by an explanatory strategy advanced by them. An explanatory strategy can be defined as "heuristic or pragmatically adopted metaphysical concept by which to approach the world." In short, I am attempting to compare two world views: one advanced by Descarte, Bacon, Galileo, and Newton and the other advanced by the adherents of quantum physics. In my mind, this is philosophically appropriate and defensible. Otherwise, why not simply revert to solipsism and be done with it?
I did write that interactionalistic, indeterministic, and nonlinear philosophical operatives support naturopathic medicine (I did not include multifactorial theory constructs). I stated this because academic medicine is based on an explanatory strategy defined by reductionism, dualism, mechanistic materialism and so on. That is to say, it based on a classical science design. This explanatory strategy engenders the first, or foundational, tier of a three tiered model. The second tier is comprised of the basic biophysical sciences that are exemplars of the work within this world view/model/ paradigm. For example classical thermodynamics, molecular biology, etc. The first and second tiers mutually influence each other and, taken together, define the paradigm for the subject of inquiry. The third tier is the applied medical sciences, supported by the operational directives of the first two tiers, that define, in this case, academic medicine (pathophysiology, histology, etc.). The summation of the three tiers have been called the biomedical model. In their excellent book, The Second Medical Revolution, Lawrence Foss and Kenneth Rothenberg amply document the reality of this viewpoint, arguing that the biomedical model, while scientific, is flawed and inappropriate apply to human beings. Interactionalism, indeterminism, etc. defined the explanatory strategy for a more appropriate medical model or what they call the infomedical design. While academic medicine, like Rome, grafts various alternative medicine practices into its "empire" it is, at its core, "Roman" and no amount of feel-good propaganda can make it otherwise. Likewise, naturopathic medicine is inherently "ecological." This doesn't make it better, just as natural supplements are not necessarily better than synthetic forms of medicine. It makes it different, and, with an adequate amount of mature intelligence, synergistic with academic medicine. While philosophically I feel that academic medicine is flawed, and at time injurious in its execution, pragmatically I understand the medicine is first and foremost an empirical undertaking. When my patient has asthma, TB, cancer or whatever, I don't really care about philosophical niceties. I care that my patient is returned to health or, as least, to their highest level of function. Realistically, I feel the two systems can, and should, work together. That would be a quest worth undertaking.
Those who will play with kitties must expect to be scratched.
Many are cold; few are frozen.
Absence is to love what wind is to fire... it extinguishes the small, it enkindles the great.
Many are cold; few are frozen.
Absence is to love what wind is to fire... it extinguishes the small, it enkindles the great.
@CE: Proposed proposition:
" A good example is the Johannes plant {St. John's Wort}, I don't know the English name, but I'll check if you like. This plant is very popular in all of the Western world, because it has an antidepressive effect. It works by affecting the serotonin system, just like Prozac does. One very bad side effect though: something is this plant breaks down the immune system. So people with HIV using this, develops AIDS almost instantly even if they are on medication."
Actual fact:
In February 2000, British journal Lancet carried a report that St. John's wort could interfere with the effectiveness of an AIDS remedy (indinavir); an immunosuppressive drug (cyclosporin) used to protect patients after heart transplantation; and an anticoagulant (warfarin). Based on this study and other reports in the medical literature, the FDA issued a Public Health Advisory stating:
St. John's wort appears to be an inducer of an important metabolic pathway, cytochrome P450. As many prescription drugs used to treat conditions such as heart disease, depression, seizures, certain cancers or to prevent conditions such as transplant rejection or pregnancy (oral contraceptives) are metabolized via this pathway, health care providers should alert patients about these potential drug interactions to prevent loss of therapeutic effect of any drug metabolized via the cytochrome P450 pathway .
Rest of the story:
The following, like St. John's wort, also induce the cytochrome P450 metabolic pathway:
Char-grilled meat, insulin, tobacco, ethanol, barbiturates, carbamazepine, glucocorticoids, phenobarbital
Suspected: broccoli, brussel sprouts
" A good example is the Johannes plant {St. John's Wort}, I don't know the English name, but I'll check if you like. This plant is very popular in all of the Western world, because it has an antidepressive effect. It works by affecting the serotonin system, just like Prozac does. One very bad side effect though: something is this plant breaks down the immune system. So people with HIV using this, develops AIDS almost instantly even if they are on medication."
Actual fact:
In February 2000, British journal Lancet carried a report that St. John's wort could interfere with the effectiveness of an AIDS remedy (indinavir); an immunosuppressive drug (cyclosporin) used to protect patients after heart transplantation; and an anticoagulant (warfarin). Based on this study and other reports in the medical literature, the FDA issued a Public Health Advisory stating:
St. John's wort appears to be an inducer of an important metabolic pathway, cytochrome P450. As many prescription drugs used to treat conditions such as heart disease, depression, seizures, certain cancers or to prevent conditions such as transplant rejection or pregnancy (oral contraceptives) are metabolized via this pathway, health care providers should alert patients about these potential drug interactions to prevent loss of therapeutic effect of any drug metabolized via the cytochrome P450 pathway .
Rest of the story:
The following, like St. John's wort, also induce the cytochrome P450 metabolic pathway:
Char-grilled meat, insulin, tobacco, ethanol, barbiturates, carbamazepine, glucocorticoids, phenobarbital
Suspected: broccoli, brussel sprouts
Those who will play with kitties must expect to be scratched.
Many are cold; few are frozen.
Absence is to love what wind is to fire... it extinguishes the small, it enkindles the great.
Many are cold; few are frozen.
Absence is to love what wind is to fire... it extinguishes the small, it enkindles the great.
@Thantor: I suspect that there are degrees to the effect, and to suggest that St. John's Wort is the equivalent of broccoli may be inaccurate (though I never did trust this horrid vegetable.)
Since there is a valid scientific study concluding that the herb interferes with the treatment of a serious illness, does it not concern you that people are allowed to self medicate with St. John's Wort? Doctors and pharmacists will always check for interactions of prescribed drugs, but people continue to be allowed access to herbs that have never been tested for effacy in their intended use, let alone their other effects quantified.
[ 07-10-2001: Message edited by: Waverly ]
Since there is a valid scientific study concluding that the herb interferes with the treatment of a serious illness, does it not concern you that people are allowed to self medicate with St. John's Wort? Doctors and pharmacists will always check for interactions of prescribed drugs, but people continue to be allowed access to herbs that have never been tested for effacy in their intended use, let alone their other effects quantified.
[ 07-10-2001: Message edited by: Waverly ]
Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time
Sigh. Yes, you are exactly right. I was being purposely inflammatory in that aspect (Bad, Bad Thantor!).Originally posted by Waverly:
@Thantor: I suspect that there are degrees to the effect, and to suggest that St. John's Wort is the equivalent of broccoli may be inaccurate
The current situation with natural supplements concerns me very much, Waverly. And not just that people are allowed access to herbs which can have serious side effects, but the whole perception that natural agents are somehow more "pure" or less dangerous. Nothing could be further from the truth. People are allowed access to melatonin, a hormone that, IMO, has been poorly researched as to long term consequences, to give one example. Even something as seemingly innocuous as beta-carotene has been reasonably shown to be inappropriate for smokers. In addition, there is the whole issue, as you have noted earlier, about quality control. Chinese patent medicines, for example, are not subject to the same rules of disclosure as natural products made in the US. For example, valium and heavy metals such as mecury have been found in these medicines. Of course, there is also the issue with adulteration. Ginseng is a good example. A authentic Korean red root (type of ginseng) can cost up to $2000. So, how much of the ginseng you are taking is really ginseng? Hard (no pun intended
) to say. We need much better controls, obviously. That having been said, isn't it interesting that St. John's wort, an economic competitor to SSRIs like Prozac, comes under fire for a characteristic readily found in other pharmaceuticals? I do not believe that it's ability to induce the p450 system is greater than ethanol, for example, yet a great hue and cry has not gone up over the fact that every time an HIV patient drinks large quantities of vodka, they are putting their life at risk. I do believe that the medical-industrial complex (in this case, the pharmaceutical companies) also have an agenda here, which isn't helping us achieve the level of safety we need to reach with natural supplements.[ 07-10-2001: Message edited by: thantor3 ]
Those who will play with kitties must expect to be scratched.
Many are cold; few are frozen.
Absence is to love what wind is to fire... it extinguishes the small, it enkindles the great.
Many are cold; few are frozen.
Absence is to love what wind is to fire... it extinguishes the small, it enkindles the great.
Thanks for the bump, Georgi.
Sex: Female and not for a long, long time
Age: 33
Alignment: Chaotic Good
Weight: A proud 128 pounds, not bad for 33
Height: 5'7"
Hair: Long and brown, and lots of it
Marital Status: single with male roommate
Interests: Greek and Latin
Occupation: Paper shuffing
Philosophy: Objectivism with a touch of Heidderianism (I look forward to reading these last few pages more closely. This could be more fun than soap bubbles blown out my third story window on to unsuspected pedestrians below.)
Sex: Female and not for a long, long time
Age: 33
Alignment: Chaotic Good
Weight: A proud 128 pounds, not bad for 33
Height: 5'7"
Hair: Long and brown, and lots of it
Marital Status: single with male roommate
Interests: Greek and Latin
Occupation: Paper shuffing
Philosophy: Objectivism with a touch of Heidderianism (I look forward to reading these last few pages more closely. This could be more fun than soap bubbles blown out my third story window on to unsuspected pedestrians below.)
gignoske seauton
sci te
know thyself
sci te
know thyself
Welcome to SYM Hekate
May your adventures here be pleasant and rewarding!
By the way, the nice guy you see before you is just here temporarily. By tomorrow I should be back to my patronising and very egotistical self
May your adventures here be pleasant and rewarding!
By the way, the nice guy you see before you is just here temporarily. By tomorrow I should be back to my patronising and very egotistical self
Cartoon Law III
Any body passing through solid matter will leave a perforation conforming to its perimeter. Also called the silhouette of passage, this phenomenon is the speciality of victims of directed-pressure explosions and of reckless cowards who are so eager to escape that they exit directly through the wall of a house, leaving a cookie-cutout-perfect hole. The threat of skunks or matrimony often catalyzes this reaction.
Any body passing through solid matter will leave a perforation conforming to its perimeter. Also called the silhouette of passage, this phenomenon is the speciality of victims of directed-pressure explosions and of reckless cowards who are so eager to escape that they exit directly through the wall of a house, leaving a cookie-cutout-perfect hole. The threat of skunks or matrimony often catalyzes this reaction.
Welcome to SYM, Hekate.I hope that you'll enjoy your stay here
Btw, I'm the resident bartender in here...if you ever need a drink( hope you don't mind the colours...I love exotic colours in my drinks), just holler, and I'll come running (or gliding, since wraiths can't run, can they? )
Btw, I'm the resident bartender in here...if you ever need a drink( hope you don't mind the colours...I love exotic colours in my drinks), just holler, and I'll come running (or gliding, since wraiths can't run, can they?
)Proud SLURRite Assistant Scientist and Brewer of the Rolling Thunder (TM)- Visitors WELCOME !!!
[size=0](Feel free to join us for a drink, play some pool or even relax in a hottub - want to learn more? )[/size]
Progressing through life, one step at a time
[size=0](Feel free to join us for a drink, play some pool or even relax in a hottub - want to learn more? )[/size]
Progressing through life, one step at a time
Sex: female
Age: 23
Appearance: red hair, green eyes, 108-111 lbs. (depending on how much I pig out that day)
Height: 5 feet, 4 1/2 inches
Marital Status: single
Alignment: Neutral good
Occupation: speech therapist - currently getting my master's degree to become a speech-language pathologist
Likes: computers, books, shopping, dancing, children, and anything having to do with the Lady of Shalott (I love that poem!)
Dislikes: having a health club membership and never using it, people who cut me off on the highway, semi-trucks, getting blood drawn, having kids throw up on me (occupational hazard), spiders, bees, and mosquitos
Philosophy: If you really want something, buy it. If you want to do something, go for it. You only live once, so enjoy yourself. Don't waste your time worrying about things that don't matter in the long run. Be kind to the people that you meet on your way up, because you'll meet the same people on your way down.
Age: 23
Appearance: red hair, green eyes, 108-111 lbs. (depending on how much I pig out that day)
Height: 5 feet, 4 1/2 inches
Marital Status: single
Alignment: Neutral good
Occupation: speech therapist - currently getting my master's degree to become a speech-language pathologist
Likes: computers, books, shopping, dancing, children, and anything having to do with the Lady of Shalott (I love that poem!)
Dislikes: having a health club membership and never using it, people who cut me off on the highway, semi-trucks, getting blood drawn, having kids throw up on me (occupational hazard), spiders, bees, and mosquitos
Philosophy: If you really want something, buy it. If you want to do something, go for it. You only live once, so enjoy yourself. Don't waste your time worrying about things that don't matter in the long run. Be kind to the people that you meet on your way up, because you'll meet the same people on your way down.
Welcome to SYM, Silmarie .Do enjoy your stay here (I don't feel like myself today, so you'll have to excuse me if I did something weird )
.Do enjoy your stay here (I don't feel like myself today, so you'll have to excuse me if I did something weird )Proud SLURRite Assistant Scientist and Brewer of the Rolling Thunder (TM)- Visitors WELCOME !!!
[size=0](Feel free to join us for a drink, play some pool or even relax in a hottub - want to learn more? )[/size]
Progressing through life, one step at a time
[size=0](Feel free to join us for a drink, play some pool or even relax in a hottub - want to learn more? )[/size]
Progressing through life, one step at a time
Geeze, brother Brink, It looks as though you and I are on the welcome wagon today
Welcome Silmarie 23 year old female eh Say, have you heard my pickup lines?
Hmmm... strange... it's usally about now that Flagg would run in... most peculiar indeed!
Welcome Silmarie
23 year old female eh Say, have you heard my pickup lines? Hmmm... strange... it's usally about now that Flagg would run in... most peculiar indeed!
Cartoon Law III
Any body passing through solid matter will leave a perforation conforming to its perimeter. Also called the silhouette of passage, this phenomenon is the speciality of victims of directed-pressure explosions and of reckless cowards who are so eager to escape that they exit directly through the wall of a house, leaving a cookie-cutout-perfect hole. The threat of skunks or matrimony often catalyzes this reaction.
Any body passing through solid matter will leave a perforation conforming to its perimeter. Also called the silhouette of passage, this phenomenon is the speciality of victims of directed-pressure explosions and of reckless cowards who are so eager to escape that they exit directly through the wall of a house, leaving a cookie-cutout-perfect hole. The threat of skunks or matrimony often catalyzes this reaction.
OK I've posted at Gamebanshee for about a year but never psoted up my anatomy.
Sex: Male
Age: 16
Height: 6'2"
Weight: 210 pounds (15 stones)
Marital: Single
Alignment: Chaotic Good
Occupation: Lifeguard
Philosophy: Don't know really. I just do stuff that I want to do, try to be polite and courteous etc but I just do my own thing.
Sex: Male
Age: 16
Height: 6'2"
Weight: 210 pounds (15 stones)
Marital: Single
Alignment: Chaotic Good
Occupation: Lifeguard
Philosophy: Don't know really. I just do stuff that I want to do, try to be polite and courteous etc but I just do my own thing.
Perverteer Paladin
<...Waverly later finds him in a puddle of urin and vomit.Originally posted by Mr Sleep:
<STRONG>Hekate & Silmarie hello...... damn i am late for the welcome party. Oh well i guess i'll just party alone then (dances in the corner while humming the tune of it's my party and i'll cry if i want to)
> I'll just pretend I never saw him and let someone else deal with it Hello to the newbies. Hekate, admitting to knowing DW does not bode well for you. Silmarie, any chance your shade of red is auburn?
Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time