Really hate Dark Brotherhood Guild

The Gray Fox · Post by **The Gray Fox** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:52 pm

The "purification" is a sacred ritual. It was necessary to cleanse the DB because no1 knows who the traitor is and it would be impossible to find out. I think that the whole "family" thing is something the black hand made up so that the members of the DB could become more vulnerable and comfertable to their rule.

You're killing cold blooded killers...it's almost like you're doing a good act! Killing assassins, less assassins means less innocent deaths...it's necessary to kill them because the traitor would've killed them all anyway. It was a very risky manuvere but a very reasonable one.

Fljotsdale · Post by **Fljotsdale** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:59 pm

Yes, I agree, Grey Fox: it was a ritual for a purpose; nonetheless I have to ask you how you would feel if, IN REAL LIFE, you were asked to do the same? Could you cold-bloodedly kill people who had become your friends, and who welcomed you as a brother?
As for the DB being heartless killers, and so deserved it - remember that you also are a cold killer, and thus killing people like yourself; your only real friends.
Of course, you could argue that if they were asked to kill you in the same circumstances, they probably would...

The Gray Fox · Post by **The Gray Fox** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:42 pm

well if i had ever even gotten myself involved with a guild of assassin's in real life....yes i would probably do this, and i must admit i would do it out of a bit of fear. i would kill them because they would be killed anyways no matter what either by me or the traitor or some other initiate lucien gets. and i would also do it for fear of being killed by the night mother or lucien or the black hand for betrayal....and plus, EVERYONE in the dark brotherhood believes that the night mother and sithis are always right, and what they say is divine law. so wouldn't i believe that as well? if the night mother told me to kill all these people, i would kill them for her because she is always right, my "brothers and sisters" would agree because they believe in the night mother as well. besides, i don't think i was attached to my brothers and sisters very much at all...i thought of them as fellow guild members, no more, no less.

The Gray Fox · Post by **The Gray Fox** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:43 pm

and yes, if they were asked to do the same task they would...so what makes me different? i will too

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:08 pm

Ah yes.... [url="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/36/Martin_Niemoeller.jpg"]unquestioning fear[/url].....

However, to the present, and to the game, do you really think all of those members of the Dark Brotherhood would truly be that blind... so blind that they would willingly kill those they considered family? Maybe you personally did not feel connected to your fellow guild members; however, you'd have to be pretty oblivious to miss that they had strong ties to one another.
Yes, the DB, in and of itself, is a group of a killers. But, within that group you sensed much loyalty. One reason I feel that the DB was so much better in its design than the other guilds is precisely because of that sense of close ties between its members. Similar, in a way, to any other family, they are united by blood. And, let's not forget either, it is called *The Dark Brotherhood Sanctuary*. To refresh your memory, Gray Fox, "sanctuary" means a place of safety, an oasis where nothing will harm you.

Belthan · Post by **Belthan** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:41 pm

Hope this doesn't come across as too sarcastic, but one of the things I like about role playing games is, well, playing a role. Granted, a character whose ethics were even remotely similar to my real-life mores wouldn't go near the DB with a 3-meter pole, but I tried to play my assassin character in a truly cold-blooded manner regardless of my personal distaste for some of the more cold-blooded quests. Which brings me to one of the things I disliked about the purification in particular: my assassin, although an utterly despicable sociopath, had specific motives and attitudes that guided the way I played the character, and superstition and obedience weren't among them. Didn't fear Sheogorath, didn't fear Mehrunes Dagon, didn't fear the Night Mother or Sithis and certainly didn't fear LaChance. So the lack of an option to disregard his orders and root out the traitor with an independent inquisition (which would have been inhumanly brutal and might have ended up with the deaths of one or more of my compatriots in the sanctuary anyway), was disappointing.

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:55 pm

Although I can understand people not liking the DB, and the Purification and kiling of innicents in particular, if such things bother your character why did he/she join the DB in the first place?

As for stopping progress when confronted with the purification ritual, frankly if the game was set up properly refusal to carry out the order shouldn't be an option. Once LaChance has given you the order a timer should kick in and if you haven't completed the ritual when the clock strikes midnight immediate expulsion and a a death mark should be triggered. After all, by not carrying out your duties to the Night Mother you have obviously revealed yourself as the traitor, or their accomplice.

Belthan · Post by **Belthan** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:25 pm

galraen wrote:Once LaChance has given you the order a timer should kick in and if you haven't completed the ritual when the clock strikes midnight immediate expulsion and a a death mark should be triggered. After all, by not carrying out your duties to the Night Mother you have obviously revealed yourself as the traitor, or their accomplice.

Ooh... I like it... sort of Charles Manson meets "The Fugitive". Prove it wasn't you but the one-armed bosmer, and then torture him to death...

Fljotsdale · Post by **Fljotsdale** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:11 pm

dragon wench wrote: Ah yes.... [url="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/36/Martin_Niemoeller.jpg"]unquestioning fear[/url].....

Yeah... I've always felt struck by that, every time I read it.

dragon wench wrote: However, to the present, and to the game, do you really think all of those members of the Dark Brotherhood would truly be that blind... so blind that they would willingly kill those they considered family? Maybe you personally did not feel connected to your fellow guild members; however, you'd have to be pretty oblivious to miss that they had strong ties to one another.
Yes, the DB, in and of itself, is a group of a killers. But, within that group you sensed much loyalty. One reason I feel that the DB was so much better in its design than the other guilds is precisely because of that sense of close ties between its members. Similar, in a way, to any other family, they are united by blood. And, let's not forget either, it is called *The Dark Brotherhood Sanctuary*. To refresh your memory, Gray Fox, "sanctuary" means a place of safety, an oasis where nothing will harm you.

Yes. Even the Khajit who initially hates your characters guts decides he wants to be your friend - i'ts too late by then, but he really DOES! - so going ahead and killing even him is a betrayal too far.

Fljotsdale · Post by **Fljotsdale** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:23 pm

galraen wrote: Although I can understand people not liking the DB, and the Purification and kiling of innicents in particular, if such things bother your character why did he/she join the DB in the first place?

I can only tell why I did:

1. It was the only guild I hadn't done, because I didn't fancy being an assassin, but everyone said how amazingly good it was, so, in the end, I did.

2. I didn't really know what was going to happen before it happened, though I realised that a guild of Assassins killed people, obviously. I thought they would only be killing bad people, though, and I didn't mind that. When I found out, I stopped playing DB.

As for why I went and did it again, in another game, and played grimly on to the end, fighting my principles the whole way: a bloodyminded determination not a let a damn game beat me. And I wish I hadn't.

galraen wrote:As for stopping progress when confronted with the purification ritual, frankly if the game was set up properly refusal to carry out the order shouldn't be an option. Once LaChance has given you the order a timer should kick in and if you haven't completed the ritual when the clock strikes midnight immediate expulsion and a a death mark should be triggered. After all, by not carrying out your duties to the Night Mother you have obviously revealed yourself as the traitor, or their accomplice.

Heh! I like it! :laugh:

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:06 pm

Some of my experience was similar to that of Fljotsdale's. I ended up joining the DB because I had heard how good it was. However, I was aware that not only innocents were killed, so that is why I thought carefully about the type of character I created. But, as I wrote above.. in the end parts of the DB proved too much even for her.

I have been thinking about this question, though. And, I'm wondering if a lot of this doesn't have to do with the way in which we, as individuals, approach gaming generally. OK, that sounds self-evident, I know, so let me explain.
When I play a game, my initial tendency is to create a character that is a reflection of who I am in real life, both in personality and in preferences. For example, on a moral/ethical level, to use standard D&D terminology, I lean most toward "chaotic good." I am a well-intentioned person who does not generally mean harm, but I often interpret rules and laws (written or unwritten) in my own way, and some would consider me "immoral" because of certain choices I make. I usually play my Elderscrolls characters like this too.
My characters almost always wear clothing or light armour, in RL I don't like to be weighed down by an excessive amount of junk. I favour stealth/illusionist types... While I can be directly confrontational in RL, I prefer to avoid it where possible. I favour more subtle means of achieving an end....

Why I do this, I don't really know. I'm sure there is something very liberating in playing a character diametrically opposed to the person you actually are. But me, I can't really do it. Or, at least, not without considerable effort.

Fljotsdale · Post by **Fljotsdale** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 4:03 pm

I play chaotic good, too., dw

And for similar reasons; and my chars also tend to reflect my own personality. I prefer sneaky types, too. As a child, I can remember practicing walking silently, and unseen, like a red indian stalking cowboys! :laugh: So I love being able to do it effectively in games!

Though I did once play an evil drow male in an on-line PnP game. I actually rather enjoyed it, and got very fond of my drow... but I didn't really know how to play him very well!

The Gray Fox · Post by **The Gray Fox** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 5:22 pm

actually i've talked to a lot of the DB people and really it seems like none of them really care for each other except the brother and sister argonian lol

Fljotsdale · Post by **Fljotsdale** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 6:04 pm

I've talked to 'em too; and regardless of whether they like each other, they respect the rules of the DB and don't harm each other, and they respect the sanctuary status.

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 6:35 pm

The first time I play a game I also go for a character that reflect my conception of my own personality, hedging a bit there, 'cos although I may view mysellf as a NG Ranger type, many may see me in a totally different light.

When I went for the DB though I adopted an Amoral, unemotional frame of mind. I viewed every person I encountered in the game as if they were just meat bags (and a big hello from HK47 whilst I'm at it). That's what my view of my character in that game was, an automaton that was programmed just for killing in the most efficient and clinical way I could. In that respect the killing in Bruma was probably the closest to 'perfection' for that character. The fake kiling in Chorrol disgusted him, and that was ironically the closest he came to turning his back on the DB! Faking a murder was an insult to his craft! That character isn't one that I'm too fond of, I certainly wouldn't want to meet him in a dark alley that's for sure. Fortunately when I quit an RPG I can switch off the personality I'm playing instantly, otherwise I'd never feel safe playing that sort of character. I really do not want that sort of thought process carrying over into real life.

Fljotsdale · Post by **Fljotsdale** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:58 am

galraen wrote: ....That character isn't one that I'm too fond of, I certainly wouldn't want to meet him in a dark alley that's for sure. Fortunately when I quit an RPG I can switch off the personality I'm playing instantly, otherwise I'd never feel safe playing that sort of character. I really do not want that sort of thought process carrying over into real life.

Quite. :laugh: However, I have a feeling... no... almost a certainty (though not quite), that anyone who constantly chooses to play only evil killers is feeding the worst part of his/her own innate personality flaws (we all have 'em!); and if we feed those worst bits of ourselves such a rich diet those bad bits will get stronger, and may even spill over into real life. I'm not saying playing evil killers will make anyone an evil killer - far from it! I'm not some sort of religious nutter! - just that a person may become insensitive to the feelings and humanity of others.

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:32 pm

Fljotsdale wrote:Quite. :laugh: However, I have a feeling... no... almost a certainty (though not quite), that anyone who constantly chooses to play only evil killers is feeding the worst part of his/her own innate personality flaws (we all have 'em!); and if we feed those worst bits of ourselves such a rich diet those bad bits will get stronger, and may even spill over into real life. I'm not saying playing evil killers will make anyone an evil killer - far from it! I'm not some sort of religious nutter! - just that a person may become insensitive to the feelings and humanity of others.

I agree completely.

LeoStarDragon1 · Post by **LeoStarDragon1** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:41 pm

I'm replying, so why does it need a seperate title?

Hello, Fellow Forum Members!

Yay! Finally, I can reply now. Wow! There's a lot to reply to! So here goes!

#01: I'm a Hayley Mills fan. She did a Agatha Christie movie. Now I'm an Agatha Christie movie fan too. Read some of the stories for school purposes though. I was dismayed to learn from "Wikipedia" about the title troubles of "Ten Little Indians". Not being from India, I won't write on their behalf. But as a member of the Chickasaw Nation, I shall write on my behalf. That's a stupid title too. I'm also irked by how lazy people were to allow an error by Christipher Columbus to have lasted for centuries! (Uh, by thinking that he had found India, so we must be "Indians".) Oh well.
#02: Opinions, personal preferences, and facts, shouldn't be confused for each other. "I prefer blondes." That is my preference. "I think that they are the sexiest!" That is my opinion. Ergo it is a fact, "that I love blondes because I prefer them and think of them as the sexiest." Arguments, debates, and fights get started here because of a poor ability to communicate one's exact thought process. Typically when someone states their opinion as if it were a fact. So some people abuse the "IMO" acronym to avoid that! Ironic! (I mean, to avoid conflict, when there shouldn't be any.)
#03: A King or Queen may gather a Paladin, a Thief, and an Assassin together and dub them as Knights. As long as the trust is held, they shall remain as Knights, or loose their Knighthood. A Thief, is forever a Thief, once they have stolen, forgiven or not. An Assassin, ditto. A Thief can become an "ex-Thief", in the sense of never stealing again. An Assassin, ditto, in the sense of never assassinating again. Now for a Paladin, it isn't so easy to cease being one. For it is indeed more of a personality issue than a vocation issue. Or "matter". However, in the Game's World, at least one can and may quest to redeem one's self of his or her "sins" as it were and become a Paladin again, but the Paladin will or should feel more guility about having had to do so, while the others see it as a "loop hole" that they can take advantage of. Like a bail bondsman giving you a "Get out of jail free!" card.
#04: Yes, it is a computer game. I used to play "D&D" then "AD&D" when they were pencil and paper with dice and miniatures, in the early to middle 1980's. We used to imagine what it might be like to streamline it all by being able to play it on a computer! Now that I play this game on my computer, I wonder what it would be like to play it within a Holosuite! "Ironic, don't you think?"
#05: Now while playing with a group of friends, the old way, there was the risk of getting hurt, when someone's feelings got hurt and he or she would slap you, punch you, kick you, or slam your head onto the table. That's when you learned the hard way, how Alignment can matter in real life! Also back then, real life church people were becoming upset, because of various fears they had too concerning Alignment. Now that we've evolved into playing for the most part, with video or computer games, it is less noticable. Since there is usually no one else around to witness our silly behavior, we tend more to experiment with the "wilder side" of virtual life and hope it doesn't influence us in a negative way in real life. Now imagine playing these games in a Holosuite. Besides now becoming a physical workout and not just a mental one, one also has to hope that the safeties never fail or that if they do, that there are fail safes in place! If you play solo, then there is no worry about so called "friendly fire" incidents that paint ballers have to worry about these days, whereas with a group, you have to watch out! However, solo or not, your Alignment will determine how difficullt the Holograms are going to be, in their reactions towards you! You may have a Holocostume on, but you are still in there somewhere! So if you're used to being what you are when you play in this simpler media, then go in like that in a Holosuite, and since you aren't as tough as Worf, well, that's a hard way to learn the lesson that the original poster here was trying to make!
#06: It's easier to make posts when starting from an e-mail, than it is to surf here and make a post. I have more to write about, but "I'm tired and a I need a..." I don't need a nap, I need lunch!

Fljotsdale · Post by **Fljotsdale** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:17 pm

Hiya, LSD1!

Did you choose your name for the initials, or was it a co-incidence? :laugh:

Well, you seem to have covered all the important bits, and I must say I enjoyed reading your mini epic post! Bits of it made me laugh. :laugh: Especially your experience with D&D and AD&D. Did you really get into fights? :laugh: I never played it with real PnP, only on-line, but even so, one or two people would get into real strops and post abuse and have his/her char behave abominably to the chars of people they were mad with, so I can imagine if they had been round a table they WOULD have been fighting or stoming off in a paddy! SO silly! :speech:
Anyway, nice to meet you - keep posting!

Belthan · Post by **Belthan** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:06 pm

LeoStarDragon1 wrote:Opinions, personal preferences, and facts, shouldn't be confused for each other.

Amen!

LeoStarDragon1 wrote:Now while playing with a group of friends, the old way, there was the risk of getting hurt, when someone's feelings got hurt and he or she would slap you, punch you, kick you, or slam your dead onto the table. That's when you learned the hard way, how Alignment can matter in real life!

:laugh: I also played AD&D back in the dice-and-miniatures days, and while it never came to blows, there was definitely emotional spill-over from the game to reality and vice-versa, and it still happens in online games too. Generally I find that if somebody's ticked off because of another player's in-game selfishness or stupidity they get over it pretty quickly, particularly if the character involved is supposed to act selfish or stupid. But nobody likes it when the whole party eats a badly aimed fireball because the player running the thief forgot to get a real-life anniversary present for the player running the wizard. Or, um, so I've heard...