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Was dropping the A-bomb right?

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Happy Evil
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Post by Happy Evil »

I think the topic is fine.

My real problem I have is the statement that Americans cannot be objective about WWII. Almost dismissing opinions because of proximity to the events and players.

What does being objective have to do with expressing opinions about the motives, benefits, and downfalls of dropping the bomb.
IMHO, objectivness is vital for judges, juries and scientists, among others.
However, objectivness is not a requirement for an expression of an opinion, nor does it validate an opinion.
I believe discerning objectivness itself a relative and subjective process. (who judges the judges?)
A process subject to an individuals interpretation of the matter at hand. Therefore never truly objective.

Not sure if any of that makes sense so I will reserve the right to disagree with myself later.

Now I'm hungy and I am going to the
Spam Joint. ;)

[ 11-08-2001: Message edited by: Happy Evil ]
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Post by Delacroix »

Originally posted by Happy Evil:
<STRONG>The unusual expression is my feeble attempt at being profound. :rolleyes:

I just get the feeling you have some other motive for your almost anti-american positions in this post.
Not just against Gruntboys flagwaving,(mine too) but any pro-american post.</STRONG>
Me anti-american?
Or you ultra-american?
There is no diference.

When I talk about the distance of the viewer from the object being viewed, it was a reference of Durkheim metod of empirical analise of the cientific object. The water divisor. Forget what you already know, to start to learn again.
Being inside the fact, event, cientific object, is a problematic point of view. Obscured or ofuscated.
The Neutrality, even knowing it don't exist, we must search for her.
At least a little.

My post, the one you think is anti-american, I was exactly talking about your nacionalism.

As it was a reference to another view, I don't think I express any anti-american view in the post.

I just want to say that Dottie was talking with some sense.
His argument have procedence, at least for me.


But as you ask, I'm not paraleled with the american policy. My politic view run for other side. Do you know that anti-globalization manifestations, I love it. But this don't invalidate my arguments. As your pro-american view don't invalidate yours. In fact, this bring some intersting condiment to the dialogue.
If I am anti-american or you are pro-american, is just a matter of reference. Not important.

Anyway my relativism put me against any majority opinion.

If you feel something in my post, I cannot avoid. But I don't post anything anti-american. I just make a critic to grunts nacionalism. BTW, it was not a critic, just a opinion that, maybe, he is in a questionable ground to analise. And, it was not only for gruntboy, also for HighLordDave, and Celegorm Valkyrre, and you.

Nothing anti-american.

BTW, God Bless America... too.

@Fable: sorry.

USA should not drop that bomb! :D
Because humans where down there.
[Sorry about my English]

Ps: I'm "Ivan Cavallazzi".

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Post by C Elegans »

@all: critisism of the decision to drop 2 atom bombs at Japanese citizens, does not necessary mean we are anti-American. We don't need to address the issue as a national issue, but rather, as a humanitarian issue. Therefore, I think patriotic rhetorics are redundant in this discussion, nobody is critising the US as a nation, I think all of us who think the bombs should not have been dropped, are critising the decision from a humanitarian viewpoint.
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Post by scully1 »

Originally posted by C Elegans:
<STRONG>@all: critisism of the decision to drop 2 atom bombs at Japanese citizens, does not necessary mean we are anti-American. We don't need to address the issue as a national issue, but rather, as a humanitarian issue. Therefore, I think patriotic rhetorics are redundant in this discussion, nobody is critising the US as a nation, I think all of us who think the bombs should not have been dropped, are critising the decision from a humanitarian viewpoint.</STRONG>
But you can't separate the two. Looking at it from a humanitarian viewpoint, as you say, only says that the US committed a humanitarian atrocity. That sounds like a contradiction in terms but I'm sure you know what I mean. Saying that the US was wrong in dropping the bomb because of humanitarian concerns, is saying that the US acted in an inhumane way. And like I said, people are sensitive and therefore defensive at the moment. Like I said, Americans are just trying to hold it together at this point, and any accusation/reminder of past mistakes/atrocities is, I feel, totally unwarranted. Don't we have enough to worry about?

Fable mentioned that this topic is of interest to everyone. I strongly disagree. This is not the time to be delving into bad things that happened sixty years ago.
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Post by fable »

Originally posted by loner72:
<STRONG>But you can't separate the two. Looking at it from a humanitarian viewpoint, as you say, only says that the US committed a humanitarian atrocity.</STRONG>
Or it could just mean that the leaders of the US attempted to do what they thought was best under the circumstances, and made a mistake. That's not my attitude, but it is an alternative which censures without condemning, and points to leaders without offering blanket criticism of an entire nation.
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Post by nael »

out of curiosity, has anyone here been to the memorial for the Abomb attacks in Japan? i was only in japan for a day for a lay over, so i didn't get to see anything, much less the memorial.
i have two friends who are japanese citizens. at soem point the A bomb discussion came up. they had very different views from oen another. one was a devout shintoist (which i belive has a very strong effect on one's views)and he went into quite the tyrade against america and the dropping of the bombs. my other friend saw it as a fair tactic in war that had much more lingering, devastating effects than was originally thought to occur.
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Post by HighLordDave »

If you're going to do as our friend Fable has done and ask the question of whether or not it was right to use atomic weapons against Japan, you must look at the person who ultimately made the decision (Truman), determine what he did or did not know about the weapons, factor in his alternatives, and take into account the global situation he was facing. In doing this you must also set aside your own values of the modern era and look back through the eyes of the times. This last part is one of the hardest things about history: not applying current morality and knowledge to past events and persons.

If you read back through my posts along this thread, I have laid out the reasons I believe Truman made the right call in deciding to use nuclear weapons in anger. Above all else, you must understand that Harry S. Truman's first duty was to the United States, its national interests and its citizens.

Like it or not, the president of the United States serves one, and only one, constituent: the electorate which put him in office (yes, I know Truman was elected as VP, but voters in the US know that the Veep is one heartbeat away from being the Prez). As such, the president of the United States has no obligation or responsibility to anyone other than the American people. Of course the United States is linked to the rest of the world through cultural, religious and ethnic ties, as well as by treaty (ie-NATO, etc.) but the president must act in his own national interests before the world interests.

That sounds arrogant, but every other world leader acts in his/her own country's interests before anyone else's, whether we're talking about Russia, Israel, the UK, China, or Zimbabwe. When Truman made the call, he factored in three basic aims: avert Allied casualties, scare the Soviets, and a quick end to the war. It worked.

The United States spent three long years leap-frogging through the Pacific: Guadalcanal, Saipan, Tarawa, the Philippines, Tinian, Eniwetok, Iwo Jima, Okinawa and all of the others. We needed a quick base of operations in the Pacific for our plans to counter the Soviet threat and couldn't afford to destroy any more of the ruined Japanese industrial base than we already had. Truman needed to think about George Kennan's "containment" theory, not about a million more Allied soldiers coming home in bags or maimed.

Whatever lens you choose to look at the Hiroshima/Nagasaki bombings through, you cannot make an educated value judgement without understanding Truman and his motivation for using the bomb. From his perspective, he absolutely did the right thing, and to my knowledge never doubted his righteousness. To condemn Harry Truman with the standards and knowledge of 56 years of hindsight is unfair and inaccurate.

Let me get off my soapbox now and address our friend Ivan Cavallazzi on a more light-hearted subject:

My high school civics teacher would be horrified to hear that you've called me a nationalist! In fact, I think Mrs. McCarron would drop dead from the shock. I have been more critical of the United States and its policies than most of my contemporaries; if anything I can more accurately be described as a revisionist.

For example, I don't believe for a second that the Gulf War was about stopping Saddam Hussein's aggression or the freedom of the Kuwaiti people; it was over cheap oil and provided a distraction from troubling economic times at home.

I think that the United States engaged in cultural (and physical) genocide in its policies towards the indians.

I believe that the American intervention in Somalia in 1992 was a result of the Bush administration throwing a monkey wrench in the transition to the Clinton administration and not about any kind of humanitarian concerns. Consider this: Election Day was 3 November 1992 and Bush knew he'd lost. D-Day in Somalia was 8 December 1992 with no clear mission or objective. Coincidence? I think not.

I believe economics drive most of our decisions, personally and nationally. I believe big corporations and old money have more influence than they should. I also believe that people (not individuals) are generally stupid and given to following charasmatic leaders and making poor decisions they would not otherwise make if they were thinking critically and on their own.

So why do I defend Harry Truman and his decision to drop the bomb if I disagree with some of the other things we do? Because it the duty of those who study history to examine all of the evidence available and not make a judgement based on emotion. Based on the evidence I have seen and trying to look at the world through Harry Truman's eyes, I believe that I have an informed and balanced opinion of what happened on 6 and 9 August 1945 in Japan, not an opinion laced with emotive and pejorative undertones.
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Post by Maharlika »

Things are getting steamy *in a nice kind of way* here.

Interesting. Much of your opinions have merits to take note of.

The way I see it, it all boils down to one thing:

What would YOU do if YOU WERE Mr. Truman, given all the inputs AVAILABLE to him AT THAT TIME.

I'm not anti-American, nor a starry-eyed Uncle Sam fan either. Afterall if you really look at it in world politics --- there are no permanent friends/enemies, only permanent interests.

I am inclined to agree with High Lord's side of the argument.

The problem with us is that we know much of the effects of Truman's decision. Would your convictions remain the same if you were in his shoes at THAT time?

Chances are, I would drop the bomb, but not order the Nagasaki operation.
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Post by Minerva »

Originally posted by nael:
<STRONG>out of curiosity, has anyone here been to the memorial for the Abomb attacks in Japan? i was only in japan for a day for a lay over, so i didn't get to see anything, much less the memorial.
i have two friends who are japanese citizens. at soem point the A bomb discussion came up. they had very different views from oen another. one was a devout shintoist (which i belive has a very strong effect on one's views)and he went into quite the tyrade against america and the dropping of the bombs. my other friend saw it as a fair tactic in war that had much more lingering, devastating effects than was originally thought to occur.</STRONG>
As Gruntboy pointed earlier, I was not going to post any opinion and am not going to. The reason (apart from the one I posted in somewhere before) is, I am the only one Japanese here in the SYM, therefore there is a danger that my opinion could be taken as the Japanese people's opinion". I know my opinion about this issue (and the wartime Japan in general) is probably more liberal and different from majority of Japanese. Someone also pointed out the usage of "we" and "us" in the posts, and that exactly what I don't want.

There is one thing relating nael's above post: A few weeks after the (then) mayor of Nagasaki suggested we (as Japanese in general) should openly talk about the Emperor's responsibility during WW2, he was shot by the right wing extremists. Shinto is the main religion (alongside with Bhuddism) of Japan, and the extreme nationalists still regards the Emperor=God. They also shot at journalists for some (not particularly radical to me) articles, tax office for let the Imperial family pay tax, and was terribly angry when Emperor Hirohito had operation ("civilians must not touch the holy body of the Emperor, let alone cutting it", they claimed). Those are minorities (I hope), still the religion and back ground of upbringing have strong affect on the view towards WW2 and the A-bombs. (Ironically, Prince Mikasanomiya, the youngest brother of Emperor Hirohito, gave the same opinion as the mayor of Nagasaki with more critical comments recently, and shocked the nation, particularly the Nationalists.) Personally, I'm not keen to be shot next time I go back to Tokyo.

Oh, and I've been to Nagasaki.
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Post by NCT »

Originally posted by Maharlika:
<STRONG>Things are getting steamy *in a nice kind of way* here.

Interesting. Much of your opinions have merits to take note of.

The way I see it, it all boils down to one thing:

What would YOU do if YOU WERE Mr. Truman, given all the inputs AVAILABLE to him AT THAT TIME.

I'm not anti-American, nor a starry-eyed Uncle Sam fan either. Afterall if you really look at it in world politics --- there are no permanent friends/enemies, only permanent interests.

I am inclined to agree with High Lord's side of the argument.

The problem with us is that we know much of the effects of Truman's decision. Would your convictions remain the same if you were in his shoes at THAT time?

Chances are, I would drop the bomb, but not order the Nagasaki operation.</STRONG>
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Post by Shadow Sandrock »

Umm... I don't hear the Japanese people complaining, soooooooo...
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Post by Mr Sleep »

Since Minerva is the only Japanese person posting in this debate it would be very kind of everyone to respect her opinion and when in this debate conduct yourselves with the knowledge that there is someone here who will get offended by what you might see as 'just an opinion'.
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Post by Minerva »

Thanks, Mr Sleep. But I don't really mind people discussing this (as long as it's "discussion", not "shouting at each other"), because I'm not going to be involved in this. ;)
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Post by NCT »

Originally posted by Minerva:
<STRONG>Thanks, Mr Sleep. But I don't really mind people discussing this (as long as it's "discussion", not "shouting at each other"), because I'm not going to be involved in this. ;) </STRONG>
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Post by fable »

Originally posted by Shadow Sandrock:
<STRONG>Umm... I don't hear the Japanese people complaining, soooooooo...</STRONG>
I'm afraid I don't understand, @Shadow. What do you mean? That the Japanese aren't concerned over Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
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Post by NCT »

Originally posted by Shadow Sandrock:
<STRONG>Umm... I don't hear the Japanese people complaining, soooooooo...</STRONG>
Would you care to ellucidate?
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Post by VoodooDali »

Originally posted by fable:
<STRONG>I haven't got any Teller quotes to hand; but here's a quote from Kirkus Reviews about Broad's work, Teller's War: Behind the Star Wars Deception:

"New York Times science-writer Broad (Star Warriors, 1985, etc.), twice a Pulitzer-winner, presents a refreshingly factual account of how physicist Edward Teller sold the Star Wars concept to two conservative Administrations—and adds some prescient comments on how to prevent such apparent abuses of power in the future. Teller, co-inventor of the hydrogen bomb, has long been known as one of America's most enthusiastic cold warriors. According to Broad, the charismatic Hungarian refugee's lifelong habit of spouting off innumerable wild scientific ideas, depending on peer review to separate out the good ones, turned dangerous as his increasing power and right-wing politics served to isolate him from his colleagues while winning him friends among conservative politicians. As a result, Broad says, when Teller became obsessed with the experimental X-ray laser project that would form the heart of Star Wars, he went straight to the White House to lobby for funds, ignoring a chorus of criticism from a wide array of experts. Teller's enthusiasm, the author explains, won the heart of Ronald Reagan, among other technologically unschooled officials, to the tune of $25 billion to date. Broad's thesis—that this phenomenal waste of funds (and Star War's potential to create instability among superpowers) was the result of a deplorable abuse of personal privilege, the defense industry's tradition of secrecy, and a lack of a governmental advisory panel for judging the technical merit of proposed weapons projects—is convincingly backed up by facts presented here. And it gives this tale of a man who in his enthusiasm may have betrayed "the central principle of his profession"—and whocontinues to promote Star Wars' replacement project, Brilliant Pebbles—a particularly frightening resonance."

I'll keep looking.</STRONG>
Fable, thought you might be interested in this article from the latest Village Voice on the military de-bunker, Theodore Postol. [url="http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0146/koerner.php"]http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0146/koerner.php[/url]
The beginning of the article:
ast year, Theodore Postol began distributing a report critical of a missile-defense system made by aerospace giant TRW. Postol, an MIT professor of technology and security policy, argued that Pentagon scientists had doctored TRW's data to conceal the fact that cheap, low-tech decoys can easily fool the $60 billion-plus system. A nuclear warhead could be encased in a Mylar balloon, for example, and released with a flurry of identical balloons; the defensive missiles would be unable to detect which one carried the lethal payload.
According to Postol's calculations, flipping a coin would give the system better odds than relying on its sensors. "

Interestingly, the article's reference to a group called Downwinders led me to another group at [url="http://www.radiation.org."]www.radiation.org.[/url] I found out that they found the baby teeth I gave to science when I was 6 years old back in 1968--apparently this was a project done in St. Louis only, and was designed to find out the level of Strontium 90 in the bones of kids. Apparently the level of Strontium 90 in my bones is 100 times higher than kids born 10 years before me. The group in NYC who are studying the teeth now are mailing me a questionaire about my health. This study led to Kennedy's nuclear test-ban. I heard the Dubya wants to start the testing back up...
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Post by fable »

Fascinating stuff in that article, @VD. The sad thing is that everybody in the US assumes all the information has been made public, and that decisions about something as significant as the Star Wars missile defense system are being made in full view, with all arguments being presented by every side.

As to your teeth--wow. Keep us updated on this.
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Post by ThorinOakensfield »

This would only incite an argument, so i am removing it.

[ 11-14-2001: Message edited by: Mr Sleep ]
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