What is your religion?

Darkpoet · Post by **Darkpoet** » Fri Aug 17, 2001 8:15 am

ARRGGGHHHHH

That's it, I will start spreading brains.

The Grand opening of the Guinness Coliseum.
Where death and destruction is resurrected. It doesn't matter what religon, color, nationality they are. The Grand Pope Dp the IVIVXXXCL, will choose. The food is free, and any body part that flies in your lap you can take home. We will be serving two gallon mugs of Guinness.

Eat, Drink and watch the beasts eat people.

Darkpoet · Post by **Darkpoet** » Fri Aug 17, 2001 8:18 am

Originally posted by Tom:
Hey darkpoet

what about a 'The Church Guiness' thread?

well wat about it? finnaly something worth getting on your knees for

Bless you my son.
Hands Tom a case of cold Guinness.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Fri Aug 17, 2001 8:18 am

Thanks for your clarifying reply, even if I don't believe in a god, I'm quite interested in religion as a subject

Originally posted by loner72:Why do people have such a problem with this? Personally I like the idea of some kind of hell. Because if everyone around here had their way and there was only a heaven with some kind of marsmallow hearts-and-flowers bleeding heart guy running it, Hitler would be there too. You all mean to tell me that you wouldn't like to see guys like Hitler and Stalin and Pol Pot and all the rest of them destroyed or punished for a million years? Give me a break.

Personally, I'm quite content with having them dead, removed from the possibility of destroying more

I guess the problem with the hell-concept derives from the idea of god as infinitely good and only good. In Sweden, the church has put a huge emphasis on the goodness of god for the last 100 years or more, to such an extent so that the concept of hell and purgatory has almost disappeared. This focus on sugar sweet, all forgiving goodness and tolerance, probably make a lot of OT events like the flood or the wiping off Jericho, the punishment of non-believers etc, seem contradictory.

Maybe it's just a personal quirk I have; but I'm about to spend a fortune getting my Ph.D. in the study of the Bible, and I just don't like to think that I'm leaving home, moving even further away from my boyfriend than I am already, going to a strange place, and spending money I could be saving for my not-getting-any-younger parents, and wracking my brain over ancient languages like Syriac, all for the sake of "crap".

It's always disappointing when we feel other people don't respect what we devote ourselves to. As researchers, we make a lot of sacrifices. But, we are also very privilieged, I think

How many people get to work with the things they find absolutely most interesting and intriguing in life? Not many. And even if we are not bathing in champagne, we at least make a decent living in so far as having somewhere to live and being able to feed ourselves (although I became quite fed up with pasta with pasta as a student

)

Gruntboy · Post by **Gruntboy** » Fri Aug 17, 2001 8:20 am

Forgive me Darkpoet, for I have sinned! I drank a pint of Murphy's last night.

What shalt be mine pennance?!

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Fri Aug 17, 2001 8:23 am

i feel religon coming on me in a bad way.

When will the church open dp?

Darkpoet · Post by **Darkpoet** » Fri Aug 17, 2001 8:23 am

You have to throw yourself at the Guinness Girls.

Gruntboy · Post by **Gruntboy** » Fri Aug 17, 2001 8:25 am

Naked? Covered in Guinness?

Darkpoet · Post by **Darkpoet** » Fri Aug 17, 2001 8:30 am

Originally posted by Gruntboy:
Naked? Covered in Guinness?

You betcha, Bishop Grunty.

Gruntboy · Post by **Gruntboy** » Fri Aug 17, 2001 8:36 am

*Leap*

THUD

*Giggle*

*Sound of slapping on naked @$$e$ and Guinness being applied liberaly to flesh-parts*

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Aug 17, 2001 9:18 am

[quote]@Loner writes:

...all the Bible says on the subject is that all people will be judged on the deeds they did in their earthly lives; and the good will live in peace and the wicked will be "destroyed." Why do people have such a problem with this?

Because the subject isn't placed before people as you've illustrated it. Context is everything, and the argument is defined by the group that shouts the loudest and gets the media attention. This means, in the US, the extremely conservative "Christian" pentacostals and some protestant groups. (Who do get all the media attention, however much they like to portray themselves as constantly under attack. Seeing oneself as victimized when you're really the top dog is a neat mental trick that enables one to fight down and dirty.)

I'd suggest that these groups have defined both heaven and hell, and very specific conditions necessary to enter either. These ideas are extremely rigid, but then, since when have the public been noted for meditative comprehension on *any* issue?

In the far right, conservative Christian American view, "living" in peace in heaven means bodily resurrection. (Somewhere I read, recently, a classic reaction to this: "In the mansion of my Father, there are many outhouses.") The wicked are defined as anybody who does not follow the clearly stated rules--this is, after all, a very literalist religion, equivalent in this single respect to the Iranian Shi'a. Destruction means total, repetitive horror, moment to moment, every moment, to the end of time. They can point to Dives and Lazarus (one of the most horrific and sick passages in the bible, IMO), and to the triumphalist rhetoric of the slaughters performed on peaceful, unsuspecting towns mentioned in the OT in the name of Yahweh.

These people, with their flare for the media, their bright, sharp, clear images, their political power and their sense of self-righteousness, have defined the discussion in the US.

And not just recently. If you go back and read the sermons and books issued during our Civil War/War of Secession in 1860-1864, their spiritual ancestors were defining identical conditions, and remitting the enemy whom they once called friends to the pits of their hell.

I honestly wish I had the means of support to leave this madhouse, frequently.

[ 08-17-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

GrimReaper · Post by **GrimReaper** » Fri Aug 17, 2001 8:36 pm

Ahhh, religion. Religion has always been one of my favorite debates. I go to a Christian school and therefore know a lot of Christians, though I am not one myself. I do not believe in a god because that seems illogical to me. If the bible is perfectly written (as I have been told by many), then I think that the Christian god CANNOT exist, mainly because of the inconsistencies between his apparent personality and his teachings (which I assume he would follow). First, about hell. It has been stated that people send themselves to hell. I personally do not believe this. God is supposed to control everything, and therefore can control our spirits. God would have to send us to hell, whether directly or indirectly. Think about how short our lives are compared to God (who is infinite). Now why would God punish us for 100 years of sin with eternal torture. That doesn't seem like a loving god to me. Plus the fact that the bible isn't clear on it only makes it worse. How you spend eternity seems like it should be one of the most important parts of the relgion, but the bible only kind of implies a hell, but at the same time, it can easily be argued that there isn't. And just so that I can ramble some more, here is the argument. First, the word hell is mentioned only once in the whole bible. It is in one of the latter books of the New Testament (one of the Peters or Johns I think). Hell is implied in Revelations, but the word is not there. Now here is the thing, the one appearance of the word hell is actually translated from the Greek word tartarus (I think that's the spelling). Directly translated, tartarus means a place where fallen angels go, but has nothing to do with people. And that is basically it. In Revelation, right after it talks about the lake of fire (supposedly hell) and all that, it says the second death, which means to me that you just die again (your soul this time instead of your body).

Really, though, I believe that religion was, and still is, used to keep people in control. Obviously, it is a little scary to think that I could be under eternal torture if I don't follow a set of rules. If this is told to someone who is not confident in their beliefs, then there is a good chance that their beliefs will change. My example here would be children. Most of the religious people I know have followed there religion from a very young age, before they could be allowed to form their own beliefs. They are told that this is the right thing to do and if it is not done than there will be serious consequences. The other type of people you often see being religious are those looking for emotional support. They could of lost a loved one, or they could just be having a bad life at the time, but they are looking for some kind of support. Religion gives them not only hope (in God), but also a scapegoat (Satan) who they can blame for everything that is bad in their life. These people can also be kept in check with that same set of rules, they are just eased into it more gently. Its kind of like, "We can give you hope, but you must follow our rules," and so these people that need hope, are willing to follow the rules for that hope. Eventually, they come out of their weakness, but by then they have already changed their beliefs.

Anyways, this will be the end of my rambling for now. I wish to invite any thought out criticism and any questions, because, as I said at first, religion is one of my favorite debates.

average joe · Post by **average joe** » Fri Aug 17, 2001 8:47 pm

Originally posted by GrimReaper:
Really, though, I believe that religion was, and still is, used to keep people in control. Obviously, it is a little scary to think that I could be under eternal torture if I don't follow a set of rules. If this is told to someone who is not confident in their beliefs, then there is a good chance that their beliefs will change. My example here would be children. Most of the religious people I know have followed there religion from a very young age, before they could be allowed to form their own beliefs. They are told that this is the right thing to do and if it is not done than there will be serious consequences. The other type of people you often see being religious are those looking for emotional support. They could of lost a loved one, or they could just be having a bad life at the time, but they are looking for some kind of support. Religion gives them not only hope (in God), but also a scapegoat (Satan) who they can blame for everything that is bad in their life. These people can also be kept in check with that same set of rules, they are just eased into it more gently. Its kind of like, "We can give you hope, but you must follow our rules," and so these people that need hope, are willing to follow the rules for that hope. Eventually, they come out of their weakness, but by then they have already changed their beliefs.

Well, none of this applies to me. I'm not a fool and i don't buy into things because people say i should. I know the truth for myself.

Kayless · Post by **Kayless** » Sat Aug 18, 2001 12:41 am

Originally posted by C Elegans:
Wow! With that background, I'm impressed you are so tolerant and open minded (well, seem to, at least )

Hey, would I hide a devious personal agenda? Yvan Eht Nioj

Quark · Post by **Quark** » Sat Aug 18, 2001 4:02 pm

So average joe, how long have you been religious?

@GrimReaper: Exactly how I think. Philosophy class was fun this year, being only one of two 100% atheists. There was one other but he was too weird to be classified as anything ...

One thing that really irkes me is the religious people who are always talking about how being moral is good. Why do religious people say that? Because they don't want to go to hell. Why are religious people moral? Same exact reason. Most of the time it's not an issue of helping someone else out, it's an issue of not being on God's bad side. Well guess what: I act the same way and I do it for the people I'm helping, not to promote myself as a prostitute of good in front of God. Ugh.

Darkpoet · Post by **Darkpoet** » Sat Aug 18, 2001 4:15 pm

My religon is Guinness, the nector of the Gods.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Sun Aug 19, 2001 5:02 am

@Quark, average joe and Grimreaper: If you enjoy debates about religion, moral philosophy etc, take a look at the "Eminem" thread. I, Eminen, Fable and some other people are involved in some serious discussion there

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Sun Aug 19, 2001 5:51 am

Originally posted by C Elegans:
@Quark, average joe and Grimreaper: If you enjoy debates about religion, moral philosophy etc, take a look at the "Eminem" thread. I, Eminen, Fable and some other people are involved in some serious discussion there

it is a serious dicussion oh **** i thought we were just spamming, damn it!

average joe · Post by **average joe** » Sun Aug 19, 2001 3:18 pm

Originally posted by Quark:
So average joe, how long have you been religious?

@GrimReaper: Exactly how I think. Philosophy class was fun this year, being only one of two 100% atheists. There was one other but he was too weird to be classified as anything ...

One thing that really irkes me is the religious people who are always talking about how being moral is good. Why do religious people say that? Because they don't want to go to hell. Why are religious people moral? Same exact reason. Most of the time it's not an issue of helping someone else out, it's an issue of not being on God's bad side. Well guess what: I act the same way and I do it for the people I'm helping, not to promote myself as a prostitute of good in front of God. Ugh.

Hm, well, i became dedicated in my walk with Christ my freshman year of high school...so about five years.

Also, i try to act morally because i want to be a decent person, not to gain anything. I just don't want to be immoral...it blows my mind that anybody could. I don't know how to explain it any better than that, as the idea of anything else is foreign to me. People have different ideas on moral goodness, but i still find it hard to believe that each person would NOT act according to what they found to be good. Of course, i know that their are individuals out there who just aren't "good" people, meaning they have no regard for what is right.

Of course, that doesn't mean such people are without hope, and i think those are the people who need the love of those around them the most.

I do enjoy helping people very much. I am always happy to listen, and give counsel if i am able or, if it is within my power, to do something to help the situation. Of course, i often have no idea what to do or say. There are several things in this world that i have not experienced, and i therefore find myself lacking when wishing to help someone whose been through a certain situation...especially if they come to me. And then there's the fact that they might not always want to hear the answer to their problems...or at least the answer i believe to be true.

[ 08-19-2001: Message edited by: average joe ]

Quark · Post by **Quark** » Mon Aug 20, 2001 10:39 am

@average joe: Then I respect you more than I respect most religious people. You actually choose to follow your path.

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Mon Aug 20, 2001 11:22 am

Originally posted by GrimReaper:
Really, though, I believe that religion was, and still is, used to keep people in control. Obviously, it is a little scary to think that I could be under eternal torture if I don't follow a set of rules. If this is told to someone who is not confident in their beliefs, then there is a good chance that their beliefs will change. My example here would be children. Most of the religious people I know have followed there religion from a very young age, before they could be allowed to form their own beliefs.

There are exceptions to that, of course. I came from a fairly religious household, and was rejecting the whole nine yards by my teens. How could I not? Children do have eyes, you know, and when the congregation fails to practice what is preached, you start asking questions. Well, my parents couldn't answer the questions, so I eventually became an atheist, much to their horror.