Most useless character

[Wolfdyne]

To be honest,

I don't think any of the NPCS are completely useless. Some of them fit certain play styles better or 'grow' into there roles. I could make do with any of the NPCs in the game, battle-wise. Most of the criteria I use is the personality of the person anyway. I Think haer'dalis is up there on the useless list, but I also use him quite a lot.

I've been told Edwin is wicked spellcaster, but I don't recall ever using him much. He just kinda grates on the nerves of the NPCs I favor.

[amanasleep]

I think it's worth mentioning that the relative abilities of the NPC's are different in SOA and TOB.

In SoA, the 3 most useless NPC's are:

Yoshimo, because (spoiler)

Spoiler

You don't get him for the entire game.

Otherwise he would be pretty decent, if not spectacular.

Otherwise, it would need to be:

Minsc, because he really offers nothing special unless you must have a hamster in your party. His berzerk is garbage, his proficiencies don't offer anything that Keldorn or Anomen can't do better, and his strength can be bought at a store.

Nalia, because her abilities are not unique, and can be matched or bettered by at least 2 other NPC's.

Cernd, because his kit is broken (and there isn't a good fix on the market), and because his abilities (both spellcasting and melee) are bettered by Jaheira.

In ToB, I think the situation is a bit different:

Yoshimo is not an option here, so we get:

Nalia, who is even worse here because Imoen is a much better choice in terms of availability in ToB and Jan basically doesn't have any of the levelling drawbacks he had in SoA. Still, she is every bit as good as any high level single classed mage, ie insanely powerful, but however good she is, Imoen and Edwin are better.

Minsc, because he pales in comparison to most of the other fighter types on offer. In particular, his slower levelling (fewer HLA'a) does not offer anything in return. Compare Keldorn, whose dispels continue to be useful and who gets Devas, etc. Valygar is also pretty weak for the same reasons, but I prefer him due to his backstab ability, which will max out at 4x and combines nicely with the fighter HLA's like critical strike.

Mazzy, another redundant fighter type. Her unique abilities are too weak to be useful at this level, and the other available fighters have much better ones (Korgan's berzerk immunities are always good, and Sarevok has Deathbringer). Any fighter has enough proficiencies to be customizable in terms of weapons loadout, and will have the most possible HLA's. She doesn't compare to Keldorn well either. She might possibly be worth it if the high level bows were short bows.

You might wonder why Cernd makes the list in SoA but not ToB. This is because the upside for a single classed Druid of any kit is quite good at level 15 and above, where their spellcasting ability expands greatly. Jaheira is a terrific warrior in ToB, but she cannot match Cernd in terms of sheer high level spellcasting output, which he gets right from the very beginning (she has to wait until 6 mill xp to get above 1 7th level slot). The ability to cast 6 Implosions per rest is pretty good when you can do it in Saradush.

I would say that every other NPC has something decent to offer in both mid-level and high-level play.

[Zaleukos]

If I may digress somewhat; Nalia is probably the worst written character in the game, whichever idiot came up with her war cries really should be taken out and shot, the rest of her diaogue is pretty bad too.

I find her incredibly annoying, but I can see what inspired the writing. She reminds me a lot of idealist teenage dogooders who live in sheltered suburbia A friend thought she felt like a little sister, and I can certainly relate to that.

She's not useless, but her low thief level means that she for all practical purposes is a single class mage.

[RiseofBane]

I've never liked Cernd, he's weak and boring, and he's like the least developed character that can join you in the game. I mean seriously, it really says how little time & effort they put into Cernd because of the bug where he won't leave your party if you poison the druid grove. They remembered to make the others leave your party and attack you if you did stuff like that to them.

I don't know why some of you are saying Cernd sucks.
In fact, Cernd is a great character. He has same (or even better) priest spell than Jaheria, and as warewolf form, he does better physical fight. Also warewolf can kill elementals (who are immune to physical attack up to +3 weapons, and golems much easier than regular fighter.)
As warewolf, you wont need to get armor and weapon for Cernd, so economically it's also saving. Warewolf will be strong as regular fighter , currently my Cernd character is level 14, and he became the Leader of Druid Grove after finishing the quest, so I also get advantages from Druid town.

I choose characters with ability wise, but it feels hurt when I kick member.
The only character I booted so far is Jaheria. I chose Cernd over her.

Before I kick Jaheria, I did all of her quests. But she was still upset when I removed her from the party, and she went back to the Harper hold.
After awhile, I wanted to see how she is doing, so I went to Harper hold and saw Jaheria standing up there. She wanted to join back, so I clicked "no" and hoped she would still stay there. I was very saddened when she said "Michael.. I.. have no place to go, nor Harper, I.. might be gone forever and you will never see me" I don't know what the exact quote was, but it was something like that. Her voice was actually very sobbing, and made me sad. She walked away and disappeared in the air. Even at the Journal it says I might not ever see her again. I went Copper Cornet, not even the Bar owner ( I believe he is her uncle) don't mention about her. I tried to search everywhere in the map, and couldn't find her. She wasn't even at the Underdark area. I guess Jaheria is gone forever!

I was talking to myself and saying "this is just game.. but why am I feeling so sad". I hope I can meet her again at the Throne of Bhaal.

[RiseofBane]

I've never liked Cernd, he's weak and boring, and he's like the least developed character that can join you in the game. I mean seriously, it really says how little time & effort they put into Cernd because of the bug where he won't leave your party if you poison the druid grove. They remembered to make the others leave your party and attack you if you did stuff like that to them.

I find her incredibly annoying, but I can see what inspired the writing. She reminds me a lot of idealist teenage dogooders who live in sheltered suburbia A friend thought she felt like a little sister, and I can certainly relate to that.

She's not useless, but her low thief level means that she for all practical purposes is a single class mage.

Never had Nalia as my party member, because I liked Aerie's magic ability better. I only helped Nalia for De'Arnise Keep quest, so that I can get $$ from the castle as a Lord

Whoever I don't keep in my party = worst members. Whenever I encounter new people, I invite them and save game before that, so if I don't like the ability I keep old members.

If I have to pick worst character as in voice-wise, I have to say Minsc. He used to be funny as hell, but right now I am at Chapter6 and Minsc is starting to annoying. He yells when I am not in a mood to hear "Sword not words!" "Minsc and Boo Stands ready.. lol" "I won't be a gentle!!"
It's not that annoying, but he has the most annoying voice in my party. My other chars have pretty calmed voice, Keldorn, Cernd, Aeries, Imoen, and my main char. Anomen also had annoying voice, after I failed his quest ( I murdered for his revenge), he started bichin so much so I picked Keldron over him. And Keldron can use Caryom +5 sword as a paladin, and Aeries and Cernd can already use priest spells so Anomen was needless.

[Sykar]

Can't say I agree with you regarding Ano VS Viccy. Much as I like Viconia's character, I often find Anomen to be the more versatile NPC. Sure, you can equip Viconia with a strength girdle but she still has the Constitution, THACO and weapon specs of a cleric, not a fighter. Anomen on the other hand, annoying though he tends to be, can blow undead into tiny pieces, smash just about anything into tiny pieces, and he's a pretty decent healer once he passes his test.

It's really about personal preference though, I've played the game countless times with probably every possible party combo out there, and you can easily beat the game no matter which you choose. So, for a long time I've based my NPC choices on whatever group provides the best banter. Korgan, Mazzy, Jan, Aerie, Viconia and Edwin are all great choices for a talkative group.

Now Mazzy is actually a single-classed fighter, and as such, she has maximum weapon specialisation, THACO etc (unlike Viconia). She also has excellent Dexterity. Give her a strength item if you want her on the front lines, or equip her with a bow for some very nice ranged damage.

I quite like Valygar myself, so agreed there. I just wish they'd have fleshed out his personality a little more, there is huge potential here for a very interesting, complex character.

I can't say I like paladins very much as a general rule, but I do find Keldorn can add some good dialogue, depending on group make up.

Cernd.... Ugh...
Boring with a capital B, and not all that useful in battle. He definitely gets my vote for least appealing.

All Anomen really has is some more HP and an extra attack and a bit better THACO. Especially in a party this doesn't contribute that much unless all others are arcane casters with a strength score of 8 or less.
He is far more vulnerable to spells. Viccy can reach 100% magic resistance without too much of a sweat and that alone gives her a huge advantage. ost enemies do not use LR type of spells and she can happily tank any magic thrown at the party or herself.
He does not have as many bonus spells unless he passes his test and even then Vicci gets a 3rd and 4th spell slot more. Give her a Wisdom Ioun Stoune and the difference gets even more crass.
He is not able to reach her AC unless you give him Gauntlets of Dexterity.
He is worse with Slings.
And she can have a decent constitution with a certain belt for 6 hours as well per day which suffices if you really struggle with her hitpoints.
She certainly is no tank for melees unless buffed a little. Still she gets enough spells to blast enemies with Flamestrikes and the like all day long if she wishes it. Or you get some Holy Power/DUHM/etc spells and make her into damage dealing insanity.
Of course any cleric can do that just wanted to point out that Viccy isn't neccesarily as far behind melee wise as many want you to believe to.

Anomen can only hold a candle to Vicci if he passes his test.
Otherwise he is only avarage compared to Vicci.

Regarding the topic:

No NPC is really useless. There are enough items in the game to make every character powerful enough to be a good contribution. Certainly some are a bit weaker or stronger than others. But since the game was soloed by the argueably worst kit in the game already, a beast master, you cannot say any companion is worthless.
I guess that's why most go after personality to choose a companion and only to a lesser degree potential power in the endgame or certain stage of the game.

In the end any party can beat the vanilla game.

[Sykar]

Somehow double posted what can be read in the post after this one. Sorry.

[Sykar]

In my opinion, micromanaging is part of knowing how to use the character well. I call Jan the strongest because he has all of the benefits of being a mage, with the bonuses that come with being a thief. As such, Jan can do more than a caster, which is important since the most powerful NPCs would be arcane casters. I'd say that Aerie would be the second most powerful. In my opinnion, Jan has more utility, and can access a good amount of clerical spells through his Planetar.

Both reach the valuable spell levels much later than any pure caster. As usual many people do not look at the whole picture and just at the endgame and even here having 31 levels in arcane caster class gives benefits over only having lets say 23-24 levels in the caster class. Still ALL of the game has to be played and getting those valuable Wishes, Time Stops, Abi Dalzims, Shapechanges etc already in SoA which is nigh impossible for those 2 is incredibly helpful on it's own.
Furthermore single classed arcane casters reach damage caps for spells much sooner, their spells last longer and they can cast more in their given field.
Granted no one but a PC cleric/mage can cast as many spells as Aerie if you count both fields combined but then again the true power begins with level 7 and Project Image which a single classed arcane caster can get before Spellhold even and reaches it's pinnacle with acces to Time Stop etc.
Getting to level 31 compared to level 22 - 24 means:

- Longer duration on spells
- 6 Flame Arrows instead of 4 and Flame Arrow is a killer spell especially tripled via Spell Sequencer.
- Better at dispelling/removing magic all the time and no not everyone uses an Inquisitor and my installation brings Inquisitors down to normal dispelling level so they do not hard counter mages so much anymore plus the dispel of Carsomyr can be saved no albeit with a penalty.
- More spell slots

I don't count exploits when determining the strength of a character. Only how powerful they would be against each other as well as the rest of the game, solo.

That is not the whole picture. A character can be terrific in group but bad in solo play. Take a cleric for example. A solo cleric is certainly not as strong as a let's say Kensai/Mage or an Assassin/Fighter or a F/M/T solo but for a party he has the best buffs, terrific heals with Mass Heal and Heal and can get even bombard decently with Flame Strike and can contribute much more to the party. His crows control isn't too bad either with Command, Greater Command and Hold Person. On top of that a single classed cleric can easily chunk undead as good or control them as evil cleric pretty soon while dual classed or multi classed clerics have a hard time reaching that point if they do it at all.
This is of course just a personal opinion in the end but I think so is any other opinion here.

No, it's not. The point of magery is to cast spells to accomplish your goal and aid your journey. As such, Jan has enough for that, especially once he gets items that can make him physically sturdy.

Yes but he still falls short as a pure caster compared to pure arcane casters.
Less damage through spells until they finally hit the cap which is much later, less duration for many spells, less slots and until at least start or even early mid ToB depending on how thorough you go through the game will get level 8 and 9 slots in sufficient manner at least to compensate for a lack of an arcane caster.
Can he do the job of an arcane caster? Yes he can.
Will he be as good as a pure arcane caster? No. Not if you compare arcane magic only he won't be as strong especially in the level 12-20 region.
Not even remotely because there begins the true power of mages and sorcerers. Of course this is off set through diversity but you cannot simply claim that this makes him superior to every other NPC automatically. It comes down to group composition and personal preferences. Assume I have a Assassin already with tons of Invis Potions, Invis Ring etc. Do I really need Jans backstabbing anymore? No not really. One backstabber suffices and an Assasin is more than capable to deal massive damage with a backstab even if he has not the ability to exploit the Iron Golem form. On top of that even with his 15% only to distribute in theif skills you can easily get the important thieving skills to a sufficient level and there are enough potions to increase his skills if it lacks a bit. Actually all he needs is trap finding, stealth and lay traps. The rest is just icing on the cake but far from needed. Heck even finding traps isn't that crucial if you want to you can just let summons run into the traps and let your cleric find them for you.

I would use UAI to equip class or NPC specific equipment such as the Scarlet Ninja-To +3, Purifier +5, Staff of the High Forest, Staff of Thunder and Lightning and of course the Defender of Easthaven. Mainly any piece of equipment which gives you important bonuses, resistances, immunities or adds extra spells to your arsenal.


Well it is no secret that UAI is a broken ability. Carsomyr in Jan anyone? At least it's hilarious to do it once just for the laugh of it.
Same goes for traps especially in the Vanilla game. Time Stop trap was the most stupid trap ever invented

While mages can get invisibility from the Staff of the Magi, the can't backstab or evade the effects of True Sight.

Pardon? Cloak of Non Detection? SI: Divination anyone? As to how is Jan better protected from True Sight than any other arcane spell caster?

Open lock is more of a perk. I usually use knock for hard to open locks anyway.

And you can do withouth either albeit you loose a lot of stuff, gold and experience albeit in a solo game that wouldn't matter much.

But, unlike Keldorn's ability it has limitless uses and can be used while silenced. Also, Keldorn can't really use his ability without sustaining damage from the opposition.

Don't forget that (spoiler)

Spoiler

Yoshimo cannot (legally) be in your party after Spellhold

.

Personally, I fill all my level nine slots with Shapechange, just because that's what my playstyle calls for. However, let's not forget that Jan still has access to spell scrolls and Simulacrum, and even then, he doesn't really need those spells to decimate every opponent in the game.

All very true. Still most characters can decimate most opponents quite easily once a certain status in equipment and levels and HLAs has been achieved.
So this is all very relatively speaking.
To me pure arcane casters are the strongest and I favour mage over sorcerer any day. Even mage/cleric both as multiclass and dual class are more interessting for me than sorcerer.
Speaking of which I have not made one yet still. Damn must start one today dual wielding flail of the ages and defender if easthaven.
I consider backstabbing with the iron golem form as a heavy exploit by the way.
There is no way an iron golem could sneak in any possible way.
Even backstabbing with a staff of the ram is in my book an exploit. But that is just my humble opinion. I did use that once but found it boring and made the game too easy for my taste.
I also do not use such exploits as CC with 3 horrid wiltings in the middle of a fight and such cheese.

Just on a side note my elven F/M which I played from BG1 and his love Aerie didn't even reach high enough level to get level 9 spells in my first runthrough of SoA and ToB albeit it was very rushed.
Imoen on the other hand easily made it to level 9 spells albeit she was about level 22 only or so. Still they were able to hold their own against Melissan even though it took me some tries to get a proper strategy against her with my party.

[koz-ivan]

All Anomen really has is some more HP and an extra attack and a bit better THACO. Especially in a party this doesn't contribute that much unless all others are arcane casters with a strength score of 8 or less.

he is certainly more flexible in combat, and really has all the stats required to make the most out of some of the most powerful weapons in the game, foa, crom, mace o' disruption. etc. since he has fighter levels he can even explore dual wield.

He is far more vulnerable to spells. Viccy can reach 100% magic resistance without too much of a sweat and that alone gives her a huge advantage. ost enemies do not use LR type of spells and she can happily tank any magic thrown at the party or herself.

this really breaks more into party tactics how often are you letting mages pelt your party with spells? yeah vicky doesn't take the brunt of those but everybody else does.

He does not have as many bonus spells unless he passes his test and even then Vicci gets a 3rd and 4th spell slot more. Give her a Wisdom Ioun Stoune and the difference gets even more crass.

then you also have the opportunity cost of that ioun stone, ano could be wearing a helm that provides far more benefit.

He is not able to reach her AC unless you give him Gauntlets of Dexterity.

- it's also tough for her to match *his* ac unless you give her a strength boost. (tough might not be the best word, but just on base stats, vicky can't wear heavy armor, nor use medium or larger shields)

He is worse with Slings.

debatable, if ano has some kind of dex boost he's actually better - in that his base thaco is lower (and i believe he gets an extra attack) there are a few other items that provide enough of a thaco bonus they could close the gap of her dex as well.

And she can have a decent constitution with a certain belt for 6 hours as well per day which suffices if you really struggle with her hitpoints.
She certainly is no tank for melees unless buffed a little. Still she gets enough spells to blast enemies with Flamestrikes and the like all day long if she wishes it. Or you get some Holy Power/DUHM/etc spells and make her into damage dealing insanity.

that belt also doesn't change her class - she is still limited by the cleric hit die and capped con bonus - disadvantages ano doesn't share 24 hours a day.

ano is just as capable with damage dealing spells, and neither have any advantage here over aerie. but that's a separate issue.

just wanted to point out that Viccy isn't neccesarily as far behind melee wise as many want you to believe to.

really she is. his extra attacks and specialization bonuses are not available to her.

[galraen]

Anomen may have some slight, and they are slight IMHO, advantages as a fighter, but they don't outway the fact he's 1) a total *******, with no excuse for it unlike Vici; and 2) He shouldn't be a cleric! No way in Hades could he dual class, even after he passes his test. The very existence of him is an affront to any AD&D player, just like Psycho (aka Minsc). The way the rules were butchered for those two is outrageous,but for now I'll stick to Analman.

Even if you ignore the fact he couldn't dual class he should never be able to cast any spell higher than 3rd level ones prior to his test.On finishing he test he should then be able to cast up to 5th level spells, but no higher. If Bioware had stuck to AD&D's tennets this conversation wouldn't exist. Either Analman wouldn't exist as a cleric, or he'd have the requisite abilities and Vici would unquestionably be inferior. Magic resistance is a boon, but can also be a handicap, or it should be. Once she has 100% MR no spells should work on her, not even beneficial ones; so no improved haste, no healing, and of course no raise dead (this shouldn't work anyway, for her or any elf of course)!

BG2 is a great game in many ways, but is riddled with deep flaws, Minsc, Analman, and the ability to raise dead elves are just three of them.

The bottom line for the game as it is though is that with buffs Vici's extra spells and magic resistance easilly balance out Analman's extra attack, the difference between the two of them is really just a matter of personal preference. For me that means if it's a choice between the two of them I choose Vici, although in truth I'd choose Aerie, who frankly is more powerful than the two of them combined in the long run.

[Sykar]

he is certainly more flexible in combat, and really has all the stats required to make the most out of some of the most powerful weapons in the game, foa, crom, mace o' disruption. etc. since he has fighter levels he can even explore dual wield.


More flexible? Now that is debatable. He might hit a bit better and harder but he runs out of spells faster so Vicci can keep herself up longer with those nice buff spells.
All he has really is an extra attack, slightly better hit and 2 damage bonus due to his specialization and level 7 fighter.

this really breaks more into party tactics how often are you letting mages pelt your party with spells? yeah vicky doesn't take the brunt of those but everybody else does.

There are tons of spells you cannot avoid. Enemies are happy to throw in you party spells like Chain Lightning, Confusion, Dominate Person, Hold Monster, etc. Especially in the first half of SoA these spells hurt if they hit. Vicci being a cleric with a high MR score can avoid these easily and can cure the important members or even all depending on what kind of magic you memorized.
Likewise not every party has need of Anomens extra attack and hitpoints. With Jaeheira, Korgan and Haer'Dalis in my party I have no need whatsoever for Anomen medicore fighting capabilites. Heck even my Jan can outfight Anomen if I play him right just needs some more micro to do so.
I much prefer the best cleric ingame and that is without a doubt Viconia who can still fight decently as a third/fourth melee option with DUHM, Holy Power and Rightous Magic.

then you also have the opportunity cost of that ioun stone, ano could be wearing a helm that provides far more benefit.

Far more benefitial compared to what? The Ioun Stone gives Vicci 2 aditional spell slots for level 4 an 5 which are pretty strong spell slots for a priest.
This is just a worthless generic statement from you without even trying to come up with something. Regarding helms which boosts clerical powers there isn't one which compares. Likewise the Ioun Stone does nothing for her defence but then again there are other means to accomplish that preferably over slots for which there are no possible clerical enhancing items available.
By the way if not for his test Anomen would be a terrible priest. It's all what saves him to not be a subpar priest and a medicore fighter.

- it's also tough for her to match *his* ac unless you give her a strength boost. (tough might not be the best word, but just on base stats, vicky can't wear heavy armor, nor use medium or larger shields)


There are several items and tons of potions to give her enough strength. There is only one item which boosts dexterity and relatively few dexterity potions in comparison and I normally need those for my main tanks they are more useful on Jaheira, Korgan, Haer'Dalis, Keldorn or even Cernd than on Anomen. Furthermore she can wear the human skin armor if you play the evil path which is a great armor.

debatable, if ano has some kind of dex boost he's actually better - in that his base thaco is lower (and i believe he gets an extra attack) there are a few other items that provide enough of a thaco bonus they could close the gap of her dex as well.


As I already said there are much fewer options for dexterity boosting than for strength boosting.
I could also argue that there are several items which improve Viconia's THACO to Anomes level or even better and this would still mean nothing.

that belt also doesn't change her class - she is still limited by the cleric hit die and capped con bonus - disadvantages ano doesn't share 24 hours a day.


Clerics get D8 warriors get D10 hit dies. On avarage Vicci has 7 hit points less only strictly speaking by this difference. Sorry but the majority of bonus hitpoints on Anomen come from his higher Constitution score. Not from the paltry 1 avarage hitpoints more for 7 levels.

ano is just as capable with damage dealing spells, and neither have any advantage here over aerie. but that's a separate issue.

As I already said Viccy has more spell slots ergo can throw out more damage dealing spells than Anomen and she can reach higher Wisdom score more easily.

really she is. his extra attacks and specialization bonuses are not available to her.

And neither are her magic resistance available to him nor her natural Dex nor her much higher spell slots per day and he has chance only to at least compete if he passes his knighthood test. Anomen with failed test -> even worse than Cernd.

If I had to choose between another DUHM or 1 extra attack, +2 hit and +2 damage I'd take the DUHM any day since it scales as you level up while those paltry bonus stay the same through the course of the game.

Also, let's not forget that Anomen breaks so many D&D rules it's not even funny and even though he is an abomination within the rule set he still can only hold a candle to Vicci if he passes his test. Otherwise he is a terrible cleric and a sub par warrior.

In the end all characters can become reasonably powerful. Still the most powerful cleric is Viconia not even Aerie can compare in the clerical field to her.
That doesn't mean she is the most powerful character ingame though, just the strongest cleric present in BG 2.
If you have need of her or if someone else is more benefitial to the group depends partly on your group and partly on your personal preferences.

[Sykar]

Anomen may have some slight, and they are slight IMHO, advantages as a fighter, but they don't outway the fact he's 1) a total *******, with no excuse for it unlike Vici; and 2) He shouldn't be a cleric! No way in Hades could he dual class, even after he passes his test. The very existence of him is an affront to any AD&D player, just like Psycho (aka Minsc). The way the rules were butchered for those two is outrageous,but for now I'll stick to Analman.

Even if you ignore the fact he couldn't dual class he should never be able to cast any spell higher than 3rd level ones prior to his test.On finishing he test he should then be able to cast up to 5th level spells, but no higher. If Bioware had stuck to AD&D's tennets this conversation wouldn't exist. Either Analman wouldn't exist as a cleric, or he'd have the requisite abilities and Vici would unquestionably be inferior. Magic resistance is a boon, but can also be a handicap, or it should be. Once she has 100% MR no spells should work on her, not even beneficial ones; so no improved haste, no healing, and of course no raise dead (this shouldn't work anyway, for her or any elf of course)!

BG2 is a great game in many ways, but is riddled with deep flaws, Minsc, Analman, and the ability to raise dead elves are just three of them.

The bottom line for the game as it is though is that with buffs Vici's extra spells and magic resistance easilly balance out Analman's extra attack, the difference between the two of them is really just a matter of personal preference. For me that means if it's a choice between the two of them I choose Vici, although in truth I'd choose Aerie, who frankly is more powerful than the two of them combined in the long run.

I am pretty sure that even in AD&D 2nd edition people with spell resistance can willingly let it down to allow benefitial spells to work. Otherwise dragons could probable never benefit from their own magics which would be a bit silly.

That being said Aerie is only stronger because arcane magic is so strong.
Considering clerical spell slots per day, duration of spells and undead turning Vicci blows Aerie out of the water unless you cannot stand that she does not chunk undead and controls them rather.
Her MR is a good defence magical wise as well wheras Aerie has to rely on her spells more to counter hostile magics.

Still I agree that Aerie is a terrific spell slinger and thanks to arcane magics much stronger bombardier than Vicci and thanks to Trigger, Sequeners
Aerie was even my first romance in my first runthrough and I appreciated her a lot.
But overall I like Viconia more.

And agreed on everything about Anomen.

[galraen]

I am pretty sure that even in AD&D 2nd edition people with spell resistance can willingly let it down to allow benefitial spells to work.

Going way OT here, but as long as we can get away with it!

It would all depend on how easy going the DM is. I'd say with acquired MR then to save time I'd allow it, but not with inherent MR. It's be like you 'temporarily' removing your hair then miraculously replacing it whenever convenient, assuming you have hair of course.:laugh:You either have it or you don't, you can't take it off and put it on like an overcoat.

[koz-ivan]

More flexible? Now that is debatable. He might hit a bit better and harder but he runs out of spells faster so Vicci can keep herself up longer with those nice buff spells.
All he has really is an extra attack, slightly better hit and 2 damage bonus due to his specialization and level 7 fighter.

no it's not debatable, and it's not even close.

any role you can put vicky into as far as combat - and ano just does it better. reread you're own line All he has really is an extra attack, slightly better hit and 2 damage bonus - unless you are red lining her spells completely to the point where she has no more to cast - at that point the balance really swings back to ano's side.

all those nice buff spells you've got vicky casting? - ano gets twice the benefit from them thanks to his extra attacks.

Far more benefitial compared to what? The Ioun Stone gives Vicci 2 aditional spell slots for level 4 an 5 which are pretty strong spell slots for a priest.
This is just a worthless generic statement from you without even trying to come up with something.

you can almost take your pick, vaihlor's helm, baulduran's helm, helm of brilliance, pale green ioun, wong fei's ioun, ronach's horn...

Regarding helms which boosts clerical powers there isn't one which compares. Likewise the Ioun Stone does nothing for her defence but then again there are other means to accomplish that preferably over slots for which there are no possible clerical enhancing items available.

btw how often do you find yourself totally out of spells w/ vicky? given the number of spells they both can cast per day (being generous) 6 extra spells she gets aren't that big a deal.

sans equipment she has an extra 3rd & 4th level spell. (if she can boost her wis to 20: then she has in addition 1,2,4,4)

By the way if not for his test Anomen would be a terrible priest. It's all what saves him to not be a subpar priest and a medicore fighter.

this matters how again? either way it's not entirely accurate, he'd still be a perfectly acceptable fighter, still vaporize undead, and still cast almost all the spells he has now.

As I already said there are much fewer options for dexterity boosting than for strength boosting.
I could also argue that there are several items which improve Viconia's THACO to Anomes level or even better and this would still mean nothing.

there's enough of those dex boosts esp if you include duhm. & any thaco boost item vicky can use ano can use - and it's more effective on ano - thanks to his extra attack(s)

If I had to choose between another DUHM or 1 extra attack, +2 hit and +2 damage I'd take the DUHM any day since it scales as you level up while those paltry bonus stay the same through the course of the game.

i hate to be the bearer of bad news here, but vicky only gets that "extra" duhm (over sir ano) after she has gained at least 2 wis points. ano's got those extra attacks the whole game. either way just let that play out again...

character a: gets an extra attack in every round of every battle for the entire game.

character v: gets an extra 2nd level spell once you are at least partially into tob (or late stage soa - i forget where that silver ioun comes from)

to be fair, she'll have 2 extra lv 2 spells before he passes the test

[Tenser]

Oooh, thats a trivial question. The bard of course. Haer-Dalis or something. Only good for identifying stuff. But combat is awful. You have to buff him in each and every way and drop all the good items on him to make him useful, and even then its only mediocre, even worse compared to what a real fighter/mage can do (more hitpoints, higher level spells, more attacks ...). Also, he steals Aerie. That would be perfectly OK if I would hate Aerie, but I happen to like her, and Haer-Dalis is no good for her at all. Also, his dialogues are braindead stupid. Pfft. You got to be kidding. Thats supposed to be a bard ?

[Sykar]

no it's not debatable, and it's not even close.

Yes it is. You put a lot of emphasis on that attack but really it doesn't add much if you already got some strong melee fighters.

any role you can put vicky into as far as combat - and ano just does it better. reread you're own line All he has really is an extra attack, slightly better hit and 2 damage bonus - unless you are red lining her spells completely to the point where she has no more to cast - at that point the balance really swings back to ano's side.


Laughable. Vicci is a better cleric, has no problems with enemy casters and can cast more often per day. The strength is no problem to compensate and even the Constitution score isn't a big deal if you do not let her tank a job which goes preferable to Jae, Korgan, Haer'Dalis, PC with according casses or multi/dual class, Cernd

all those nice buff spells you've got vicky casting? - ano gets twice the benefit from them thanks to his extra attacks.

It is one extra attack and you greatly overvalue it. Any other melee or hybrid melee is better than Gaynomen leaves him so far behind in melee capabilities that you rarely need that extra attack. The are only two reasons to take Anomen, that is you want a non evil nearly 'pure' Cleric or if your party consists of 3-4 arcane casters with no melee capabilities

you can almost take your pick, vaihlor's helm, baulduran's helm, helm of brilliance, pale green ioun, wong fei's ioun, ronach's horn...

And as to how do these helmets increase his clerical abilities again?

btw how often do you find yourself totally out of spells w/ vicky? given the number of spells they both can cast per day (being generous) 6 extra spells she gets aren't that big a deal.

Since at 19 you get additional spell slots for level 4 and above those extra spells are very welcome.

sans equipment she has an extra 3rd & 4th level spell. (if she can boost her wis to 20: then she has in addition 1,2,4,4)

And that is to me far more valuable than an extra attack and a meager amount of extra damage

this matters how again? either way it's not entirely accurate, he'd still be a perfectly acceptable fighter, still vaporize undead, and still cast almost all the spells he has now.


Perfectly fighter? Are you dreaming? Almost any other melee hybrid blows him out of the water even without equipment. Jan, Korgan,Haer'Dalis, Jae, Sarevok, PC depending on classes even as multi classed Figher Cleric, they are all vastly superior in melee combat than Gaynomen

there's enough of those dex boosts esp if you include duhm. & any thaco boost item vicky can use ano can use - and it's more effective on ano - thanks to his extra attack(s)

Which items besides Gauntlets of Dextrerity boosts Dexterity? I know at least 3 to 4 items and one potions she can use.
DHUM is reltatively short lasting buff so you do not spam the spell all day long.

i hate to be the bearer of bad news here, but vicky only gets that "extra" duhm (over sir ano) after she has gained at least 2 wis points. ano's got those extra attacks the whole game. either way just let that play out again...

character a: gets an extra attack in every round of every battle for the entire game.

character v: gets an extra 2nd level spell once you are at least partially into tob (or late stage soa - i forget where that silver ioun comes from)

to be fair, she'll have 2 extra lv 2 spells before he passes the test

Yeah let's forget the +3 to missle weapons, the extra level 2,3 and 4 spell slots and the the 65% MR and wank off over an extra attack and a meager bonus to hit and damage which as the game goes on are less and less noticable especially if you got competent fighters in the group already. :laugh:
And of course that Anomen should never exist in the AD&D rule set un the first place.

[Tenser]

Yeah let's forget the +3 to missle weapons, the extra level 2,3 and 4 spell slots and the the 65% MR and wank off over an extra attack and a meager bonus to hit and damage which as the game goes on are less and less noticable especially if you got competent fighters in the group already. :laugh:
And of course that Anomen should never exist in the AD&D rule set un the first place.

Its called house rules and its prefectly "legit".

Not that AD&D makes much sense in this respect, mind.

Thank god D&D3 turned out quite a lot more logically structured.

[koz-ivan]

Yeah let's forget the +3 to missle weapons,

which is a push really, thanks to ano's better base thaco.

the extra level 2,3 and 4 spell slots

how often are you really casting all of her spells? either way that's only 2-3 spells. for fun i pulled up my last soa final save - ano spells /day:
lv 1 = 11
lv 2 = 11
lv 3 = 9
lv 4 = 9
lv 5 = 9
lv 6 = 9
lv 7 = 5

how many more spells do you really need?

and the the 65% MR

the mr is nice but it comes at the price of about 40 hit points. right out of the gate ano has twice her hit points. unbuffed she's one of the most frail npc's in the game.

and wank off over an extra attack and a meager bonus to hit and damage which as the game goes on are less and less noticable especially if you got competent fighters in the group already. :laugh:

let me get this straight, the very first thing you mention is her +3 to missile weapons, yet totally overlook bonuses to hit with all weapons, extra attacks *and* extra damage? even if you don't front line him & use him as a missile platform he is still gonna spit out more damage than vicky depending on the buffs used (or not used) ano's missile damage can be twice that of vicky.

And of course that Anomen should never exist in the AD&D rule set un the first place.

and this matters how?

[Tenser]

and this matters how?

If I remember correctly, half of what was running around in BG1 wasnt legit . Stuff like an elf fighter/thief with Dex 20, a Dwarf Fighter with Con 20, a lawful neutral elf wizard who however wielded a moon blade (needs chaotic good alignment), and so on. Therefore, actually BG2 was more likely to follow the rules in this respect.

[galraen]

Forget it, no point in arguing this any further