GameBanshee Forums

LOL. I've read the Books nine times (although not for a while). And I also started playing D&D before it had the A added. The D&D Ranger was taken from LOTR. In these days where Fantasy books abound it's probably hard to understand that at the time D&D was introduced as a mixture of table-top wargaming and fantasy just how few fantasy books there were. Everyone accepted that the basis for the fantasy in D&D was LOTR even if there were other elements. If there was any doubt I'd have asked Gygax when I met him...

Aragorn: The Kings had been in exile for many generations. Any skills he learnt would be heavily elf-influenced. I don't see why making him a Paladin enhances his ability to be a King. His hands may be healing, but he uses herbs to accomplish that aim. Similarly it's not that he detects evil, but his perceptions are much keener than normal (his elven blood?). I'm sure he uses a bow to get food in the book (but I ain't searching to prove it), in any case he would have to be skilled with the bow to live in the wild. Does Aragorn ever don full plate, wield a 2-handed sword and call for his warhorse? Neigh!

Frodo - My only problem with swash for Frodo is that he's a lousy fighter. Maybe he's multi-class swash/bard

Sam - can't be a swash, "the epitome of charm and grace"? I think not. As for Bard - I don't recall Sam singing Elvish against his enemies. I remember him crying out in elvish (without realising what he was doing). Not quite the same. He could be a plain Fighter but I still prefer Barbarian - Merry & Pippin end up more like Fighters than Sam.

Legolas: I like Marksman, but of course you have to have TDD and isn't that incompatible with TOB?

On half-elves: If memory serves don't they get to choose whether they follow the elven or human side in LOTR?

ahh PoD, you knowledge of the book is accurate. Aragorns healing skills are brought about through his knowledge of natural cures and his royal blood.
Perhaps the kings of old were Paladins, but Aragorn is most definately a Ranger still.

I like the Inquister argument, because is does work, perhaps he should gain true seeing and detect evil abilities, along with the Paladin 10ft radius of courage.

Greatswords?? WHAT!!!
Alundil is clearly a long sword, and he used nothing but that. He had skill in duel wielding, but he preferred one weapon, and if I recall, he did use a longbow a couple of times.
Frodo I see as a Swash bard.
Sam is a barbarian (skill with animals finally tipped it)
Merry and Pippin are both Fighter/Thieves without a doubt, and Gandalf is cut!!

Why is it clearly a longsword? It could just as well be a bastard sword in my eyes.
Doesn't Aragorn use two hands with the sword sometimes? Also, that might the the reason why he doesn't carry a shield...

-Sylvanerian

Couple more notes:

• Gandalf casts awfully few spells compared to D&D wizards. The only two flashy ones I can remember is the fire he uses to scare off some Worgs before the group arrives at Moria, and the smashing of the bridge beneath the Balrog.
• Legolas is an excellent fit for Archer. Archers are still Rangers and their only drawbacks are no specializing in melee weapons and no heavy armor.
• Elrond is also called "Half-Elven". Aragorn is of the same blood. In Middle Earth, Half-Elves have to choose at some point whether to spend their lives as Elves or Humans.
• Boromir could be of Good Alignment. He's noble and wants nothing more than to save his beloved city. The way he tries to do this betrays his low Wisdom.

Don't forget the fire he makes when they are on top of Caradhras (spelling) and also (this is from the book, not the movie) when Gandalf is scouting a bit he encounters the balrog (then not knowing what it is, except for a very strong deity) and he uses some kind of hold/stop/whatever spell.
About spellcasting, I think the spellcasting of Gandalf in LotR is comparable with the casting of spells in Heroes of Might and Magic III where you have a certain amount of spellpoints. This means for Gandalf that he can use a lot of small spells or just a few big ones and after that he will be tired and out of (magical) energy. So that's why he won't use the magic so much, and besides that, they try to travell undercover, would you use fireballs, etc then??

I've read with some interest all these posts, since when this
topic started.
Now I truly have to add my opinion!
To be honest, all of this seems a bit pointless.
You can't mix LotR with this game.
I try to explain myself:
As has been said, it was the book that conditioned literature
and fantasy games. Not vice-versa.
When Tolkien imagined his world, he never thinked of magi casting
7th or 8th level spells, magic missiles and like.
Did you read the book?
Magic is a MYSTERIOUS thing. There are more Magic BEEINGS than
Magic USERS, and even such creatures are very rare (the hobbit
only dreamed of elves and the like).
I mean, there are powerful creatures and people that have an
AURA of mystery and magic, charming elven ladies, or the dreadful
Nazgul. Such is the magic of the Middle-Earth: magic in the
nature of the beeings, greatness in their lineage, or epicness
in their deeds.
If you measure all of this in AD&D terms, you'll go nowhere.
How could you see Gandalf as a fighter/mage, or in terms of levels?!?!?!?!
Gandalf is a Wizard. Gandalf is THE wizard, maybe the most classical and famous in literature. HE inspired the AD&D wizards.
But he's a Wizard more for his Wisdom, and for his words, than
for his spells. Yet, while all others "magical" creatures cannot,
he indeed can incanalate magic powers to some immediate effects:
small effects to amuse the children, or great ones in times of need.
So he's powerful compared to the common people, but this doesn't
mean he has to be walkin' around casting spells all the time.
He's a Sage, and the fact that he uses the sword when need arises...
well, you see what I mean.
AD&D rules are another thing. D&D is inspired by literature,
but in it magic explodes simply for its "fun potential", yet you have to remember that it remains a game.
Even if you consider "right" how magic and others things are organized
in AD&D and BG, you cannot try to apply those rules to LotR.

It's like, ahh, seeing an old science fiction movie and complaining
about the fact that some ideas are already surpassed.
Everything will lose its fascination.
We have to take another approach: forget about our schemes, and
try to understand the visions and feelings that an artist wanted
to share.

I mean, we can continue this topic for sheer amusement (and I'm sure
it'll happen), but if someone here has yet to read the book, my
advice to him is to forget all that has been said here, and simply
do it now.

Ops, I didn't want to be pedant!!

I have read the book some 8 or 9 times and still think it is possible to translate it from book/movie to the game. However, some things are just not the way it is in the book/movie, coz of limitations of the game or whatever. Well, apart from that, use your imagination and make something of it.

Originally posted by Silvanerian:
<STRONG>Why is it clearly a longsword? It could just as well be a bastard sword in my eyes.
Doesn't Aragorn use two hands with the sword sometimes? Also, that might the the reason why he doesn't carry a shield...

-Sylvanerian</STRONG>

That would be my guess too

I've always imagined that Aragorn had a flexible fighting style, perhaps in some way akin to Japanese/Chinese styles. A shield goes with armour and a hacking style. A bastard sword (or maybe we should think in terms of a katana) would fit better than a longsword in D&D terms.

On half-elves: on reflection didn't Aragorn's distant relative choose the human path, meaning that despite elven blood Aragorn could not be treated as a half-elf.

[ 01-17-2002: Message edited by: PoD ]

Originally posted by PoD:
<STRONG>Sam - <snip> As for Bard - I don't recall Sam singing Elvish against his enemies. I remember him crying out in elvish (without realising what he was doing). Not quite the same. He could be a plain Fighter but I still prefer Barbarian - Merry & Pippin end up more like Fighters than Sam.</STRONG>

*sigh* *searches for her copies of the books to see if she can find references*

Sam didn't sing in elvish language. I was mistaken in that, but he did use song at one point that I know of.

This is in Return of the King. The chapter is "The Tower of Cirith Ungol."

And then softly, to his own surprise, there at the vain end of his long journey and his grief, moved by what thought in his heart he could not tell, Sam began to sing.
His voice sounded thin and quavering in the cold dark tower: the voice of a forlorn and weary hobbit that no listening orc could possibly mistake for the clear song of an Elven-lord. He murmured old childish tunes out of the Shire, and snatches of Mr. Bilbo's rhymes that came into his mind like fleeting glimpses of the country of his home. And then suddenly new strength rose in him, and his voice rang out, while words of his own came unbidden to fit the simple tune,
In western lands beneath the sun
the flowers rise in Spring,
the trees may bud, the waters run,
the merry finches sing.
Or there maybe 'tis cloudless night
and swaying beeches bear
the Elven-stars as jewels white
amid their branching hair.

Though here at journey's end I lie
in darkness buried deep,
beyond all towers strong and high,
beyond all mountains steep,
above all shadows rides the Sun
and Stars for ever dwell:
I will not say the Day is done,
nor bid the Stars farewell.

'Beyond all towers strong and high,' he began again, and then he stopped short. He thought he had heard a faint voice answering him.

Also, at hte end of that chapter, he yelled something out in Elvish as his thoughts sprange back to the Elves and the song they used to drive away the Black Rider in the Shire.

'Gilthoniel, A Elbereth!' Sam cried. For, why he did not know, his throught sprange back suddenly to hte Elves in the Shire, and the song that drove away the Black Rider in the trees.

I'm too tired to search for anymore instances right now.

To make the discussion about Aragorn very simple, check the description of 9 of the Fellowship, Legolas for the elves, Gimli for the dwarves, Gandalf as their leader, Frodo, Merrin, Peppin and Sam for the halflings and Aragorn and Boromir for the humans. You read it, humans, so if there was any elvenblood in him, it ain't enough to consider him half-elf. Besides half-elf is only possible when you're the offspring of one elf and one human and Aragorns' parents were both human.

The case for Master Samwise as some sort of bard: what SailorSaturn said, plus the fact that he manages to cook up a song of his own (Fellowship, ch. XII, 'Troll sat alone on his seat of stone'). And don't forget he ends up going into politics...

Pippin: saved by Gandalf from becoming an incompetent thief, (blew that 'move silently' role in Moria, didn't he?), he eventually learns discipline and valour from Boromir's mad dad, making for a pretty good sword-and-shield fighter, perhaps on the road to paladinhood?

Gandalf: maybe he does fit into D&D...maybe he does cast a lotta spells...maybe you don't always notice him using spells like charm, malison, power words, prot. from evil 10' radius, spook, resist fear, breach, lower resistance, wyvern call(read "Gwaihir")...it takes some imagination, and it would be weird playing Gandalf against our favorite BGII mages and sorcerors.

Overall: I have an easier time imagining all of this with the levels backed down quite a bit. The hobbits, Merry and Pippin at least, leave the Shire as first level whatevers. Legolas and Gimli, they are 5th-6th and about to take off. Try Aragorn and Boromir as 8th or 9th (they are just beginnning to lead other men), and let Gandalf the Grey be 12th level, maybe a specialist. Since he seldom repeats spells within one day, no need to make him a sorceror. Say he dualled from fighter at 4th level, so he can carry that sword around, and give him Tensor's Transformation so he can use it in pinches like Moria.

This way the hobbits, and even Legolas and Gimli, can level up quickly while Gandalf stays the same until the really big exp.'s come.

K, point taken. Aragorn shall be human for in game terms. However, I believe Gandalfs power to far in excess of lvl 12. He is among the most powerful beings in all middle earth, standing behind Sauron, Elrond and that about raps it up

sam's singing and elven words came from the phial Galadriel gave to him. It was her speaking through him, or that was my take on it at least.

Thanks guys, wow, 3 pages. GO FOR 4!!!

Originally posted by Knight Errant:
<STRONG>sam's singing and elven words came from the phial Galadriel gave to him. It was her speaking through him, or that was my take on it at least.</STRONG>

Possible(though, imho, unlikely) for the elven words he cried, I don't see how that could be with the singing, for several reasons. First, he wasn't holding the phial in his hand when he sang. He was sitting one step below the level of the almost-top-floor of Cirith Ungol with his head in his hands. He started out singing songs he'd heard before. "And then suddenly new strength rose in him, and his voice range out, while words of his own came unbidden to fit the simple tune." Sounds very bardic to me and, as the book says, it was his voice and the words were his own.

I believe Gandalfs power to far in excess of lvl 12. He is among the most powerful beings in all middle earth, standing behind Sauron, Elrond and that about raps it up

Uhm .. I disagree (while going for page 4). I don't think that Gandalf stands behind Elrond, what Gandalf is is best described as a demigod (or maya), Elrond is a high level elf.

Gandalf's skill profile would probably equal that of a planetar. I think he's not a level X mage with a number Y of spells because he has Z XP, he's a unique being with a set of abilities that don't depend on his level. Even he may grows with experience like he does in the book, but considering his nature most of abilities may be innate.

Elrond over Gandalf? If I am correct, then Elrond isn't the mightiest elf from Middle Earth. On that point Galadriel surpasses him, because she is from the time the elves fought between each other (Silmarillion). Elrond is only mentioned somewhere near the end. So that would mean Galadriel over Gandalf and she admits that she is not that powerfull as Gandalf as he 'is another being'.
Sauron on top however, that guy had all the time of the world to think out a lot of bad stuff and on top of that, a very good teacher!!

And don't forget Saruman...if it's Gandalf the GREY we be talking about, then I'd put Saruman ahead of him in power. Only later does this change...

In defence of my idea to make Gandalf a (mere) 12th level, this was only suggested for making a playable mod where Gandalf is an NPC who joins the party. Plus i really think that all the power he exhibits in the first book of the trilogy can be found in sixth or lower level spells. As one of the "Maiar" (which is not the same as "demigod"), he should have some special abilities, maybe a bit of magic resistence (but remember at first Saruman's "charms" work on him, the treachery is concealed until too late), or a reduced casting time.

If you want to hold Gandalf up to Elminster, then you've gotta make him high level. Within Middle Earth, however, I think the high-powered characters work as 10-15th level. No need to make Elrond a 20/20 mage/cleric, for instance, if no one else is even 10th.

What about the Balrog? Well, I remember as a novice gamer being pointed to the Type VI demon in Gygax's Monster Manual, and being told "that's basically a balrog. Gygax ripped it off.." That was the monster we now refer to as a balor. Very serious for a party of 5th to 9th, even if there is a 12th mage among them.

But whatever...in SoA the levels kind of run away on you, and the little city of Athkatla seems overrun with archmages and high priests. So naturally we're all thinking powergaming for this FotR party.

Aegnor, what you're basically saying is that, a FotR-party is better suited in BG1? I agree on that, as compared with the fellowship, in Bg1 you are just the sort of newbie to everything that's happening in the world and you don't recognize evil as easy yet as in Bg2.

Talking about what Gygax ripped off from LOTR is quite funny really:
Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, Orcs, Rangers are all based on the LOTR model. The last three probably didn't exist in literature before Tolkien and Tolkien's take on Dwarves and Elves (in particular) was so different to what came before that the D&D versions could have come from nowhere else. There's plenty of other stuff that is heavily influenced, like magical items and the bestiary. Much of what's left was based on Middle Ages in Europe, with just a few things that appeared totally original. Of course things have moved on a bit since then...

I'm being sold on Sam ending up as part Bard, but I feel sure that this was a progression in the Book. He didn't start off that way. You can't dual class halflings in 2nd Ed. Most of these characters would probably work better in 3rd Ed rules...

And yes, they would definitely be relatively low-level to start. Outside Gandalf I can't see anyone past 9 (Aragorn), and even that may be high.

[ 01-19-2002: Message edited by: PoD ]

Yes, I suppose the power gaming of BG 2 has gotten to my head.
Especially since the Halflings are 2nd level at the most when they leave...
Aragorn I see at at least lvl 12 when they first meet. I mean, he kicks the **** out of the Nazguls.
Boromir, level 10 but with a heavy const.
Legolas, higher level, the guys several thousand years old. At least 14.
Gimli, level 12.

1 more til 100!