GameBanshee Forums

Dang i did a search on afghanistan and this came up, i didn't know people still had questions.
My bad.
To fried to reply today.
Tomorrow you guys should have a reply to a majority of your questions.

SS,
I do not know about the religous leader side of things, but I do know that most muslim countries place a high value on learning. In many muslim countries there is less of a glass ceiling for women in business and in academia. Pay is more equal and there are significantly more women in senior mangement positions than in most european countries and in the US. In those countries where women are discouraged from learing, is seems to be culturally driven more than anything else.

An interesting thing I was told a little while ago, Saudi (and maybe other?) based banks are not allowed to charge customers bank fees or charge interest on loans.
CM, do you have any experience of this or how this sort of banking system works?

I have a question. What are you fried on?

I've also got another one. If this hasn't already been answered (I've just gone to the last post 'cause it's late and I'm tired) then how come the islamic faith forbids the eating of pork? If it has already been answered please say so and I'll read back through the whole thread. Or you could answer it again; either's fine by me

G'night all.

I think there is a serious problem if you discuss the different ways the Koran is interpreted by "the" Islam, since it doesn't know a real, generally accepted clerical hierarchy. If you wnt to know how the Catholic Church sees a certain topic, go with the Vatican. The protestant churches have some form of a representative comitee and a speaker. The orthodox churches have patriarchs (or metropolites). In "the" Islam one mullah might say this and one scholar that, but there is no authority that could decide over a quarrel.

Polygamy is definately allowed by the Koran. Actually, Mohammed's intention was that the plenty of widows (due to the wars of Mohammed's time) should be taken care of. However, I doubt that he Koran does prescribe the conduct of sexual intercourse.

Posted by CE: 3. Regarding science: As a non-religious person, I see many similarities between the world's two large monotheistic religions islam and christianity, especially when putting them at the same time scale (ie considering islam is about 600 years younger and viewing how the religions have developed in society). One of the major differences I see though is the IMO "anti-intellectual" and "anti-scientific" forces in the history of christiany (flat earth, geocentric solar system, anti-evolution), whereas in islam I don't see a parallell to this. Christianity has had many clashes with science, this doesn't seem to be the case in islam, which I find interesting.

Yeah well Christianity was pretty anti-science for a long time. But IMO Islamic fundametalists are doing to Muslims what the Churhc did too Christians. They are restricting Muslims from learning. Its like Christianity was backwards during the Middle Ages, now Islam has done the same to itself. Hopefuly it'll get better.
I think all those Muslims should stop complaining about the West. This is the time of the west. The time of the Middle East was very long(from ancient era to industrial era) and has gone by and now its time for the West to dominate. Maybe in the future, the far east will be the big power. Times change.

Sure it would have been better for me living 100-400 years ago. I would be living in India, be a multi-millionare, my parents, my family would be maharajahs. But I live in this time. Just have to cope with it.

I've also got another one. If this hasn't already been answered (I've just gone to the last post 'cause it's late and I'm tired) then how come the islamic faith forbids the eating of pork? If it has already been answered please say so and I'll read back through the whole thread. Or you could answer it again; either's fine by me

I;m not sure about this one, but i believe because pigs are believed to be dirty. They live in their pig-stys in the mud. Just not a clean animal. But i'm not sure.

I'm not a religious person. I'm sure CM knows tons more than me. I haven't read the Quran, haven't done much. My grandmother has taught me some stuff. Oh well.

I guess if I become a total athiest(not there as yet), then i could probably go anywhere i want in after life, right? If i believe that i will be sent to another planet to start another life, it will happen. Haha, sweet.

Guys (and this isn't aimed at any individual), if you have questions to ask CM about Islam, feel free to do so. But please remember, he's not offered to step in as a RPB (Religious Punching Bag). If you have issues with Islamic civilization, make a specific thread and discuss the matter there. This is for questions about Islam that CM is trying to answer--that's all.

I've got an interesting theory I learned from Marvin Harris, the anthropologist who helped found a sub-set of anthropology called Cultural Materialism. He tends to look at the economic reasons for certain cultural practices. His book, Cows, Pigs, Wars & Witches is not a difficult read and very interesting.

Regarding pork, I will try to rehash what he said.
In Indonesia, pigs are considered wonderful animals, and they are raised within families in some parts. They are the main part of a big potluck.
In the Middle East, both judaism and islam forbid the eating of pork. Orthodox judaism actually goes beyond that--you can't eat off of a plate that a piece of pork touched!
One of Harris' questions was why are pigs loved in Indonesia and reviled in the Middle East. The typical reason I was always told was the threat of trichonosis. Harris dismisses that reason because he says that while trichonosis can make you sick, it usually is not life-threatening. Whereas, anthrax is life-threatening and beef is not forbidden in that region. So, it doesn't really explain anything. Harris says the reason is mainly economic. Pigs compete with humans for food. We eat the same things. Cows do not compete with humans for food. They eat grasses that we are unable to digest. In a desert environment, keeping pigs is a threat to the survival of the group. In a tropical environment like Indonesia, there's plenty of food to go around for all. Also, in tropical environment, pigs care for their skin by wallowing in the mud. In an arid environment, there's a lack of mud to wallow in, so they wallow in their own feces instead--so pigs in the desert are dirtier. Harris says that the reason religion becomes involved is that whenever there's a strong economic/health reason for people not to eat something they naturally love--it's easier to give it up with God telling you to do so. (I think my re-wording is not the best, but hopefully you get the gist.)

posted by Sailor Saturn
Just a quick Q; didn't this idea come out of Greece?

While I agree that "anti-scientific" applies to the [mostly extreme] fundamentalist Christians, I would say "anti-intellectual" does not apply to Christians, except perhaps solely to the Roman Catholic Church during the Dark Ages.

Yep, the Greek was very interested in the issue of the shape of the earth. AFAIK Pythagoras in the 6th century BC is the earlies written proposal for a round earth, but a majority of the ancient Greek philosophers had a spherical view. Some, like Thales, thought the earth was flat, some others thought is was cylindrical. Aristotele argues beautifully for the spherical view, as did Plato. The flat earthers were very few around the time of Aristotele, but when the Roman Empire grew large, the flat view became more common again (I don't know why, as you know history is my worst subject )
In the Middle Ages, many educated people knew the earth was round, following the Greek tradition. However, the OT contains passages where the flatness of the earth is mentioned, which is no surprising considering the ancient Hebrews thought the earth was flat - and thus, some christians scholars concluded that the earth must be flat because the bible says so. Since the vast majority of people were illiterate, they got their knowledge from the church only, and thus this view was propagated to people although a small "educated" group in society knew the earth was spherical.
This concept lived on to picked up by modern day fundamentalist, but I believe they are extremely few today.
When I referred to the "anti-intellectual" tendencies in christianity thorughout history, I certainly had the catholic church during the Middle ages in mind. The immense power of the Roman catholic church influenced Europe for many hundred years, society in large as well as the individual.

Originally posted by ThorinOakensfield
Yeah well Christianity was pretty anti-science for a long time. But IMO Islamic fundametalists are doing to Muslims what the Churhc did too Christians. They are restricting Muslims from learning. Its like Christianity was backwards during the Middle Ages, now Islam has done the same to itself. Hopefuly it'll get better.

Interesting note, Thorin. When christianity and islam is put on the same time line, ie you adjust for the 600 years between them, they really appear even more similar, at least to me who is neither christan nor muslim. What do you think? Perhaps islam too may through a "dark age"?

CM, a comment on this?

My shia and sunni question still lingers, but I must add another question as well, please don't feel stress CM, I will wait for your replies.

I asked MM this in the christianity thread: Do muslims and christians believe in the same god?

There's an interesting book called The Muslim Discovery of Europe, by Bernard Lewis, Prof. of Near Eastern Studies at Princeton University. It's a fascinating look at how much during the early Middle Ages, Islamic scholars and rulers knew about both the Christian West and its various governments, through source documentation. At the time, during the early Renaissance, Islam was either unknown or completely misunderstood by both Catholics and Protestants, alike--Lewis points to one astonishing document by a Vatican correspondent who notes that the Muslims worship Apollo.

But as time went on, and the West (by the 1600s) began to evince an interest in the Near East, Islamic nations had completely lost interest in the non-Islamic world. One of the later and most important Islamic histories of the period is quoted as having an extraordinarily detailed and accurate understanding of the main divisions within the Orthodox Church of the 7th Century CE, but states it as though it were current information. It would appear that at some point during that period the overwhelming advantage of Islam in terms of culture, science, and governmental structure was gradually eroded away from lack of movement.

Originally posted by fable


But as time went on, and the West (by the 1600s) began to evince an interest in the Near East, Islamic nations had completely lost interest in the non-Islamic world. One of the later and most important Islamic histories of the period is quoted as having an extraordinarily detailed and accurate understanding of the main divisions within the Orthodox Church of the 7th Century CE, but states it as though it were current information. It would appear that at some point during that period the overwhelming advantage of Islam in terms of culture, science, and governmental structure was gradually eroded away from lack of movement.

Fable, when I was taking Islamic history, once thing they pointed out that the west should be grateful for is that the Moslems halted Genghis Khan and the Mongol invasion in the Balkans. The Mongols completely destroyed the learning centers of the Islamic world. They burned down all the libraries (as you know, libraries at that time had irreplaceable works). It was a devastation that set the Islamic world back for a long time to come (perhaps until this century). Had the Mongols been able to continue their invasions into Germany, France and England, the enlightenment may never have happened. The end result was that western Europe was able to continue advancing, and the islamic world was left behind (technologically speaking). They then had to endure the Crusades, and later the Ottomans, and later colonialism. I think there is a tendency in the islamic world to look back on the days of Muhammad as the "good ole days" and that this fuels the fundamentalist movements. The last time they had a real empire was after Muhammad conquered Spain, North Africa, and all of the Middle East. Perhaps, they feel that part of the reason for falling behind in development is that they have fallen away from the teachings of the Prophet.

Originally posted by C Elegans


Yep, the Greek was very interested in the issue of the shape of the earth. AFAIK Pythagoras in the 6th century BC is the earlies written proposal for a round earth, but a majority of the ancient Greek philosophers had a spherical view. Some, like Thales, thought the earth was flat, some others thought is was cylindrical. Aristotele argues beautifully for the spherical view, as did Plato. The flat earthers were very few around the time of Aristotele, but when the Roman Empire grew large, the flat view became more common again (I don't know why, as you know history is my worst subject )
In the Middle Ages, many educated people knew the earth was flat, following the Greek tradition. However, the OT contains passages where the flatness of the earth is mentioned, which is no surprising considering the ancient Hebrews thought he earth was flat - and thus, some christians scholars concluded that the earth must be flat because the bible says so. Since the vast majority of people were illiterate, they got their knowledge from the church only, and thus this view was propagated to people although a small "educated" group in society knew the earth was spherical.
This concept lived on to picked up by modern day fundamentalist, but I believe they are extremely few today.
When I referred to the "anti-intellectual" tendencies in christianity thorughout history, I certainly had the catholic church during the Middle ages in mind. The immense power of the Roman catholic church influenced Europe for many hundred years, society in large as well as the individual.

Cool, most of that I didn't know.

(&$$*%&%%^)!!!!
I had answered everyones questions and this stupid thing freezes.
4 pages in word!
All gone!
CE you are going to have to wait for some time, 2.5 pages were towards you!
Oh well one answer to each person in a post.

SS: Education is a must on all muslims be they male or female.
This is not practiced, even though lip service is given to it in many arab nations.
Though other muslim nations like Malaysia and Indonesia have an equal percentage on male and female literacy and education.
Pakistan has a very low level, with women at 34 and men at 38 to 40%.
Iran has a high literacy with both around 70%.
The arab countries are very much male dominated and thus there are some nations like Saudi, Kuwait etc which limit female education.
Egypt on the other hand aims to get more females in college and schools than men.
Hazart Mohammad has said that education is so important that we should even learn from the chinese who are deemed unbelievers and thus enemies of islam.
There is no distinction placed between men and women and their rights to education in Islam.
Sadly what is preached is not what is practiced.
Overall the muslim nations have to do alot more to promote and protect the rights of women in general.

In Islam Homosexuality is not allowed, it is a sin for which people can go to hell.
2 women in 1 room could lead to such acts.
No matter if a man is there or not.
So it is not permitted on those grounds.
As for someone finding out about it, well who would walk into a man with his two wives in such a sitaution, unless he or she is not robbing them or isn't a peeping tom?

Jace as an economic student i know that the "islamic banking" is not possible under the present banking system.
In islam you can't charge interest rates on anything.
Modern banking thrives on Interest rates.
They are not compatible.

The saudis have a system that Pakistan is also implementing, it is just interest rates under a different name.
It is called profit and loss.
Here is a numerical example:

Modern Banking
You borrow 100 bucks for 1 month with 10% interest, you pay back 110 bucks right?

Modern "Islamic" Banking
You borrow 100 bucks and say that you will may back a mark up of 110, as that would be profit from the venture for the bank.
What is the difference between the two?
None in my opinion.
It is simple interest under the name of "profit".

So there is no such thing as islamic banking with the present day banking format.
Hope that answeres your question

Grasshopper, i was fried from college work, too much stuff, exams work etc.
The middle east is a very hot climate, where animals do get disease very easily.
Chicken pox, cow pox small pox all came from domestic animals.
In the region from what i know pigs contained many diseases that would be fatal.
Thus muslims were told not to eat pigs.
Also i believe - not sure here, maybe fable or CE could correct me - pigs are not indegious to the ME.
So there were additional problems of disease.
That is why we aren't allowed to eat pork.
This is not written in the quran rather it is saying of the prophet.

Trym, muslims believe and preach that religion is between the man or woman and Allah.
Nobody has the right to judge or comment on the way you practice unless you perform a sin.
So if you say don't pray 5 times a day that is a sin.
However if you don't say all 30 different prayers, that is not a sin.
As it is not obligatory on all muslims to say the 30 prayers, people don't.
However there are some fundo elements which say that you have to do all 30, something contridictary of what the Quran says.
So there the organization is performing a sin by going against what the Quran says.

Also there has never been a Muslim hierarchy for religion, and i doubt there will ever be one.
Why not really sure, muslims have always been allowed to practice on an indivdual level, there has never been an over seeing body that says my version of the intrepretation of Islamis correct and I shall force it on the rest.
That has never been allowed both by the people and by the religion itself.

As for sexual intercourse, you guys would get a kick out of this.
Below is the link to the Islamic version of the kamasutra!
It was written by a Mullah around 200 to 300 years ago.
I find it funny in its wording, but Islam sees sex as a normal aspect of life, but does not allow premartial sex.

For some reason every time i open the link the comp jams.
Anyway here is the google link.
Click on the second link called the perfumed garden.

http://www.google.ch/search?q=the+perfu ... l=en&meta=

CE on the issue of Do we believe in the same God.
Muslims believe yes.
We believe that all the 3 major religions share the same god.
However as i mentioned to SS we don't believe that Hazart Jesus was the son of God.
We, muslims, believe there is only one Allah, and God has no relations what so ever.
If there were relations, than that wouldn't make God a single entity.
If Hazart Jesus is the son, that would make him a demi-god or something along those lines.
But we muslims believe there is only one Allah and there is no other like him.

Islam and a dark age, maybe.
The problem is that back in the 1700's or earlier i think, the King in Saudi stopped by a religious fatwa that islamic law can no longer be allowed to change.
Before that Islamic rules and conducts would change and evolve depending on the knowledge gained through the years.
So the fatwa caused a stagnation in the growth of islamic law and learning as well (that was an after effect).

What muslims are going through now are is a revival of islamic doctrine and teachings, which clash with the way like is lived in the islamic world, with despotic rules, who violate islamic law and basic human rights.
They have little or no education etc etc.
There are a lot of social problems created after the colonial rule which has caused strife and confusion within the Islamic world.
Just a quick note on history.
The modern states of the muslims world only exist because the ottoman empire was disbanded after WW 1, so the concept of a nation state was completely new to them.
Also the islamic world had been one empire for nearly its creation.
That is why people demostrate on the street when Palestine is in the news, or for iraq, afghanistan, kashmir etc.
There is still that feeling of one nation among the people.

Back to the topic, muslims are getting back to the roots of islam and rediscovering a majority of the teachings and ways of life in an intellectual manner, something which was stifled during the 1800s.
So personally i believe were are going a cultural and societal reformation and at the same time trying to adapt to many ways of life in the west.
I do believe islam went through a dark age and is still there, but we are coming out of it.
But due to sept 11th there might be major set backs in this reformation.
It is just one bizzare mess.

originally posted by CM
Grasshopper, i was fried from college work, too much stuff, exams work etc.
The middle east is a very hot climate, where animals do get disease very easily.
Chicken pox, cow pox small pox all came from domestic animals.
In the region from what i know pigs contained many diseases that would be fatal.
Thus muslims were told not to eat pigs.
Also i believe - not sure here, maybe fable or CE could correct me - pigs are not indegious to the ME.
So there were additional problems of disease.
That is why we aren't allowed to eat pork.
This is not written in the quran rather it is saying of the prophet.

Okay, my guess on the fried part was way off then . Ta for answering the pork question, I've always wondered about that. I went on holiday in the United Arab Emirates a few years ago but the my aunt and uncle (who we were staying with) said not to ask in case people took offense .

@CM, I did in fact get that anthology of classical Arabic literature from the library, but everything in it is pretty long. It is a wonderful collection, however, entitled Night & Horses, & The Desert, edited by Robert Irwin. It's available in paperback from Amazon.

I'll try to post a few of the shortest examples. Unfortunately, I have to eliminate Irwin's commentaries, which are among the most interesting things in the book, given his deep knowledge of the language and broad understanding of the various cultures.

Here are a few examples of a wasf, a particular poetic form that was at first frowned upon for its primitiveness, and later became celebrated and accepted. The author is Ibn al-Mu'tazz, who became Turkish caliph for a day, and was then assassinated by the slave/military elite, in 908 CE:

A treeful of bitter oranges: carnelian
Boxes of pearls
Glimmer among the branches, like faces
Of girls in green shawls--
You recognize the fragrance of one you desire
And a less obvious sadness.

Another glass!
A co!k crow buries the night.
Naked horizons rise of a plundered morning.
Above night road: Canopus,
Harem warder of stars.

I'll post more, later.

Thanks Fable, i will try to go through some of my dad's old books, which i brought with me to see if there is anything in there as well.

Grasshopper no problem, also just a point, muslims (this is a generalization) don't get upset when people ask questions about our religion. Since very few out of the islamic world understand it, we feel more than happy to explain everything. Also if you start on religion and explanation get ready to drink alot of tea and sit for a couple of hours minimum.

Now on to answering CE's questions.

Originally posted by C Elegans
Thank you for answering my questions, CM.

1. Taking pictures of women: In the Emirates I noticed nothing of this, it was in Morocco and Algeria I was told that one shouldn't take photos of women. So obviously this is a cultural things, perhaps specific to Northern Africa. (Somebody knows about Egypt or Tunisia?)

It be ok in Egyot for sure, they have tv shows with women on don't they?
Nah Egypt is pretty liberal to the extent it has outlawed things, which Islam allows.
Like the beard, nobody in egypt is allowed to have a beard.
Go figure!

Which book? I'd be interested to put it on my "to read" list Now, I realise the shia and sunni issue is a very complicated one, this is what I know, in brief:
In Sunni, Ali who was cousin with Mohammed and also married to Mohammed's daugher Fatima, is regardes as the 4th and last caliph and leader of the muslims. In Shia, Ali is viewed as the 1st caliph, and his (and Mohammeds) line did not die out but their spiritual power was tranferred to the Imams. So in Shia the Imam is a holy person with special spritual characteristics, god-like and perfect like the pharaos in ancient Egypt, whereas Sunni does not have this view of the Imams.

I didn't put in the name of the book?
Damn, ok i will do it soon later on today, i don't have it with me at the moment, but i do believe i posted it here before.
I will look for it.
He was not viewed as the first Caliph, but rather as the first Imam.
Correct to an extent.
Shias will never commit Shirk (comparing a Man to Allah), so the Imam's are not God like, they are pious humans who are very close to Allah.
After the death of Hazrat Mohammad (SAW), the people were left to decide who would lead the muslims. There were 2 groups, one who backed Hazrat Ali because he was the cousin and father of the Prophets (SAW) grand children, and then the majority which backed the closest friend of the Prophet (SAW) Hazrat Abu Bakr Siddiq. When it came to a vote, Hazrat Abu Bakr Siddiqi won hands down with a sizeable majority. Then came the other 2 closest friends of the Prophet (SAW) and then the 4th was Hazart Ali.

Here is a link from my personal collection:
I agree with all that is written on the specific page, but i can't say the same for the rest of the site.
It is a Sunni site, about the differences.

http://www.islamfortoday.com/shia.htm

It is also my understanding (perhaps erranous) that Shia focuses more on martyrdom, suffering and punishment than Sunni. I view Shia as more similar to the christian catholic church (organised clergy, the pope/the imam, focus on suffering of Christ/Ali) whereas Sunni is more similar to christian protestanticm (less organised, many independand smaller churches/organisations).

Yes and no. The Shia's lay emphasis only one historical aspect of martyrdom and suffering. And that is what happened at Karbala.
A complete history can be found at this link:

http://www.geocities.com/~abdulwahid/ah ... rbala.html

Very long and very detailed.

I also know there are some practical differences such as differences in prayer and other customs. But I wonder whether cultural differences makes a larger individual difference between muslims than Shia and Sunni does?

Yes there are many differences, between culture and practice, between sunnis and shias, but also from region to region. The practices in pakistan differ from those is saudi which differ from those in Morroco. But there are small things, like Sunnis pray on a mat or clean floor. While Shia's place their head on a clay or peice of earth (for some reason). Stuff like that. But the religion is a very unifying factor in my opinion.

3. Regarding science: As a non-religious person, I see many similarities between the world's two large monotheistic religions islam and christianity, especially when putting them at the same time scale (ie considering islam is about 600 years younger and viewing how the religions have developed in society). One of the major differences I see though is the IMO "anti-intellectual" and "anti-scientific" forces in the history of christiany (flat earth, geocentric solar system, anti-evolution), whereas in islam I don't see a parallell to this. Christianity has had many clashes with science, this doesn't seem to be the case in islam, which I find interesting.

Cool, something i said was interesting.
First time for everything!
I personally have yet to come across a problem between Islam and Science, but i know so very little, so their might be some.
Which i doubt, but you never know!

An out-of-topic nitpick: It is well confirmed that we have lots of pain receptors in the skin, they are called nociceptors. We have no pain receptors at all in the brain, but the brain interprets the signals coming from the pain receptors.

From the surah/verse, many muslims see that as the Quran detailing a scientific discovery that has only now been recognised. So many muslims believe, including me that Islam and Science go hand in hand if not interlinked.

Editted to add a link.