140 dead in Moscow hostage, death toll still rising...

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Wed Oct 30, 2002 7:03 am

Originally posted by Nippy
No, but then, NO ONE should be allowed to kill someone.

Again I don't think it is that simple, we live in a world of evil, the reasons for that are up to whatever you want to believe. So it's up to the righteous to combat this evil, of course that is where the problem starts, who is right, who is wrong, what is the good what is the bad?

The "would you steal a loaf of bread to feed a family" argument becomes prevalent, just as with your statement I could say that ideologically I see no problem with euthenasia when the person is lucid and requests the procedure for just reasons.

There is a fine line between what is right and wrong, to say emphatically that no one should be killed also presumes that there is an alternative in some situations, a peace march never won a war as far as I know.

Nippy · Post by **Nippy** » Wed Oct 30, 2002 8:23 am

I agree with you Mr Sleep, thats the problem. With euthanesia I see no problems, why cause pain and suffering when someone is going to die, but the issue with death caused by others, is, in my opinion quite finite. Who but God (if there is one) has the right to say, you will die? No one, thats the point.

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Oct 30, 2002 8:27 am

Originally posted by Littiz
I've followed an entire transmission with reporters from Chechenya.
They witnessed barbaric acts from BOTH parts. You lose sympathy for everyone
when you hear such things.

What I think we're losing sight of, here, is the fact that this isn't taking place on a level playing field. It's not as though Russia and Chechnya are competing for unoccupied, neutral land. We are discussing the invasion of one nation by the forces of another. The Chechyn barbarities occurred after whole villages were put to the torch, their inhabitants driven into the mountains, where they live as guerilla fighters--how else? Nor did they act that way before the Russian army invaded their country. In short, there *is* an aggressor in this. I cannot in good conscience and after examining the recent history of the area agree that invader and invaded are equally culpable. That would be tantamount to blaming a man for injuring the thief who tries to club him into unconsciousness.

If russians let it go then it could start a chain sequence with other regions,
with catastrophic results again even for the russian population.
What I mean is, even the rest of the Russian population has some rights.

Actually, most of the regions associated with indigenous peoples which were manhandled into Soviet republics have already dissolved their ties with Russia: Uzbekistan, Kazhakistan, Azerbadjan, Armenia, Turkmenistan, the Ukraine, etc. Chechnya is one of the very few that hasn't achieved full geographical autonomy, largely because it's too small and impoverished to make a determined standoff against the Russian army, and close enough to make the Russian government nervous. So Chechnya couldn't start a chain reaction; rather, it would be at the tail end of one.

Mind, I don't approve of murder. No sane person interested in existing inside a society does. But the rules by which social conduct are ordinarily regulated are removed when a nation's leaders are killed, its government overthrown, its towns destroyed and its an occupying force takes control. The alternative, agreeing to the complete dissolution of a culture and a nation, simply isn't palatable, IMO.

frogus · Post by **frogus** » Wed Oct 30, 2002 11:21 am

I partly agree with Fable.

I think that some people are drawing the most ridiculous opinions possible from the evidence they have - For example:

But when people take 800 hostages, hostages that prove no personal threat nor enemy for them, and with cold blood start to kill them just to let the world know their "cause", to me they are "terrorists"

The Chechen civilians were no threat or enemy to the Russian soldiers who looted their country.

They refused to release kids over 12, considering them adults. This caused at least the death of a 14 years old. Sorry but... when people go kill randomly and savagely to gain audience,
I lose sympathy for their request of freedom.

Chechens were not allowed to live because of their age. They were killed.

@ Gaxx - Let me try to put it in a different light. If I were a slave in the Roman Empire and my master was a truly cruel and heartless being. I would never resort to threatening his wife or children to gain my freedom. Perhaps my point of view is archaic or naive, but it seems to me this world is severley lacking in honor, ethics and morals.

But don't just say 'cruel and heartless'. Your master has already killed your family and ruined your life.

Your vision is biased, @Fable. All wars are like that.

If you are going to say that, I may as well say 'Your vision biased, Littiz - All terrorist hostage situations are like that. So deal with it.' Rather than thinking about how things are (and civilians do get killed every day), think about how things should be. Large and powerful countries should not launch bombing raids and then occupy a small country, exterminating it's peoples in the process, simply for political positioning...

RUSSIA COMMITTED THE WORSE CRIME, THEY DID IT FIRST, AND THEY CREATED THIS ENTIRE SITUATION FOR NO GOOD REASON.

Sorry to shout.

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Wed Oct 30, 2002 12:34 pm

@Frogus, before stating that my opinions are ridicule, you should try
to understand them correctly first.
Who ever negated that Chechens suffered those things? Did you heard me say
such a thing?

Let's keep the example of the thief.
Of course if someone is threatening you or your family with a gun, you
have the right to defend.
It was he who put the both of you in peril. Without legitimity, too.
But this doesn't mean you have the right to kill his family, or his
daughter!!! Or a random kid in his neighborhood!!

But what are we talking about here??!!? Are we humans still, or not?!!???

I've heard of another "incindent" in Israel, a palestinian killed
a woman and her TWO DAUGHTERS in their home, before get killed himself.
Now, nothing in the world, let alone argumentations in this forum, can
convince me that he had the slightest "right" to do this.
Killing a woman, and two defenseless girls!!!!!!!
No, I won't allow you to call his action a right revenge, or him
a freedom fighter.
He's a MURDERER, a damned beast

Some situations might push me to kill, of course. But I KNOW deep in every
fiber of my flesh and bones that I wouldn't ever slaughter a
defenseless family, "to let the world know my cause".
Or to vindicate innocent deaths with OTHER innocent deaths.
What kind of smart revenge is that??

This is sick folks.
Just sick.

We're not talking about removed rules of society.
We're talking about BASIC humanity.
Some have it, some don't

I won't go on with the debates.
Some things just cannot be explained
If such are the values, no wonder the world goes in flames

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Oct 30, 2002 12:53 pm

@Littiz, no one is calling your opinions ridiculous. I'm pleased that you've expressed them here, but by that same token, expressing one's views doesn't mean an end to dialog. For example, I can differ from you on this issue, and feel myself completely right, yet also feel that your views are entirely correct. Why shouldn't they both be? Is either of us in a position of complete knowledge of everything involving the war in Chechnya, or the moral considerations involved?

Let's keep the example of the thief.
Of course if someone is threatening you or your family with a gun, you
have the right to defend.
It was he who put the both of you in peril. Without legitimity, too.
But this doesn't mean you have the right to kill his family, or his
daughter!!! Or a random kid in his neighborhood!!

Not quite exact. The thief isn't threatening you or your family with a gun; the thief has already killed your family, and is in the process of having his gang partially burn, partially loot your house. Under those circumstances, if nobody around will pay attention to you, and you have no friends to help, what would you do to get attention for your plight? I'd like to think I wouldn't attack the gang leader's friends and family, who live in very nice mansions on the proceeds that they looted from my home, but--I can't say that for sure. And I would have great sympathy for any person in that situation who chose to strike back in such a fashion.

RandomThug · Post by **RandomThug** » Wed Oct 30, 2002 12:56 pm

Just wanted to shout

a peace march never won a war as far as I know.

Weasels post holds more truth than a hundred of the anti/for war posts I have seen in the past.

War is a nessicary evil. If you want a crazy ass wierdo pyscho opinion of mine pm me and I'll scare you with my point of view on the subject of war.

People are animals. People kill people, just like other beasts. Were just so much better at it its scary. The only way to create a perfect peacefull enviroment on earth is to drug all the drinking water with heroin.

War

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Wed Oct 30, 2002 1:43 pm

Re: Just wanted to shout

Originally posted by RandomThug

People are animals. People kill people, just like other beasts. Were just so much better at it its scary.

I read at one time (from some author I cannot remember)

Humans can be the most kind animal, humans can be the worst animals. Humans can do the most good, humans can do the most evil.

No truer statement can sum up the animal call Humans.

In this world you will find a few who will give up all to help the many.

In this world you will find a few who will do all they can to kill as many.

And in the middle you will find the lost looking for hope.

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Wed Oct 30, 2002 2:26 pm

Just wanted to apologize for my tone before.
This topics flame me.

I know that governments feed hate. But if WE are beasts, how can we expect governments to be better?

RandomThug · Post by **RandomThug** » Wed Oct 30, 2002 2:27 pm

So true.

Man is just a beast who builds illusions that we are better than other beasts. Our ability to concieve idea's doesnt mean we are more imprtant in any sense, just better at what we do.

Of course this concept ignores the idea that we ARE better because religion says so, then again I dont believe in religion.

RandomThug · Post by **RandomThug** » Wed Oct 30, 2002 2:29 pm

Littiz

No problem on the anger thing, let some commie post an anti american post and I'll loose my temper in a heart beat.

The fact is your right, we cant expect them to be the best animals. We can hope that our efforts will be not in vain (voting) and we will elect the few who want to help.

ThorinOakensfield · Post by **ThorinOakensfield** » Wed Oct 30, 2002 3:48 pm

Originally posted by Littiz

I've heard of another "incindent" in Israel, a palestinian killed
a woman and her TWO DAUGHTERS in their home, before get killed himself.
Now, nothing in the world, let alone argumentations in this forum, can
convince me that he had the slightest "right" to do this.
Killing a woman, and two defenseless girls!!!!!!!
No, I won't allow you to call his action a right revenge, or him
a freedom fighter.
He's a MURDERER, a damned beast

So then he is a murderer. Many people are killed in their homes, and the ones who do the killlings are murderers. Who said this man is a freedom fighter. It could be anybody, anywhere in the world who goes and kills somebody.

Originally posted by Littiz
Some situations might push me to kill, of course. But I KNOW deep in every
fiber of my flesh and bones that I wouldn't ever slaughter a
defenseless family, "to let the world know my cause".
Or to vindicate innocent deaths with OTHER innocent deaths.
What kind of smart revenge is that??

Yes, we all say that, but has anybody been here, been in such a situation. Thankfully not, so I don't see how you can comment like this. Right now I can't believe I would kill anybody, but who knows if I were in such a dire situation.

And there is nothing like smart revenge. Ever heard of rage? You're depressed, you get angry at those who cause your depression, you either just go back into depression or you go out and take care of the problem. When you've lost everything, including your mind in extreme depression, you may end up getting so filled with rage and adreline (sp?) that there is nothing in the world that can stop you.

Originally posted by Littiz
This is sick folks.
Just sick.

Its time for you to come out of your happy to do dah world and into the real world. People die everyday, alot of them are innocent. People lose their grandparents, their parents, their siblings, their children, their relatives everyday. People die in wars

. Innocent people die in wars. Cities are bombed into pulp.

Humans have always killed each other and will continue to kill each other. Its natural.

. Animals kill each other, often those of the same species. Lions fight over and kill their competitor in dominance of a pride. They kill the children of their compettitors. Pacifism, ever lasting peace, is just a dream, that will never come true.

Face it, people die. Sometimes one has to kill or be killed. War is needed, agressors can be justified.

Its life.

Originally posted by Littiz
We're not talking about removed rules of society.
We're talking about BASIC humanity.
Some have it, some don't

Basic humanity. Hah! Look at my above comments. Basic humans have been killing each other, and so are complex ones. They sometimes kill their rivals, sometimes hit them where it hurts most (family), or simply loot, destroy, rape. Thats humanity too.

ThorinOakensfield · Post by **ThorinOakensfield** » Wed Oct 30, 2002 3:51 pm

Soem stuff to add so some idiot doesn't think me as a murderer/physco

I'm not saying killing is good, I'm saying its natural. Its horrible and is frowned upon but it is done and alot of it goes on without most people noticing.

I'm not saying killing solves problems, sometimes it may. A person who goes into somebodies house and kills the family is a murderer.

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Oct 30, 2002 4:07 pm

Under considerable pressure at home, the Russian government has finally named the gas used in the theater, recently. It was a Fentanyl derivative. Here's what I found about it on the ARI (Addiction Recovery Institute) website:

"Basics: Fentanyl is a potent opiate-based narcotic used for anesthesia. For this reason it is the drug of abuse of choice of anesthesiologists because it is readily available and small amounts that are not detected in urine samples are enough to make the user euphoric."

Nightmare · Post by **Nightmare** » Wed Oct 30, 2002 4:17 pm

I'm in complete agreement with Thorin on this. I personally hate killing and hatred. But it goes on existing. Is there anything I can do? Nope. As said above, "a peace march has never won a war as far as I know".

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Oct 30, 2002 5:17 pm

Re: So true.

Originally posted by RandomThug
Man is just a beast who builds illusions that we are better than other beasts. Our ability to concieve idea's doesnt mean we are more imprtant in any sense, just better at what we do.

Interesting. But while animals may play with their prey, they do it without any awareness of cruelty, simply because play is part of their natures. It's left to humanity to rise to the skies, to envision love, to wish for better things; and to fall lower than the animals in his need to destroy with as much malice and ingenious reasons as possible.

RandomThug · Post by **RandomThug** » Wed Oct 30, 2002 5:20 pm

Fable you just read your PM

I've got goals. Simple goals.

Keep my list of enemies down, and my list of friends as small as well. The less people I know, the less chance of them screwin with me. I'll vote for whomever I think is best for the job, but I aint gonna try to change too much. Let me get along through the day so I can see tommorow. Call me narrowminded, call me short sighted, call me whatever the hell you want cause I aint gonna hear you.

Koveras · Post by **Koveras** » Wed Oct 30, 2002 6:37 pm

The smarter humans become, the worse it is.

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Oct 30, 2002 8:39 pm

Re: Fable you just read your PM

Originally posted by RandomThug
I've got goals. Simple goals.

Keep my list of enemies down, and my list of friends as small as well. The less people I know, the less chance of them screwin with me. I'll vote for whomever I think is best for the job, but I aint gonna try to change too much. Let me get along through the day so I can see tommorow. Call me narrowminded, call me short sighted, call me whatever the hell you want cause I aint gonna hear you.

Why should I call you anything? I think your viewpoint is fascinating. But then, I've always enjoyed your posts.

Er, sorry for the spam, folks.

Lintelyg · Post by **Lintelyg** » Wed Oct 30, 2002 9:01 pm

I believe in what the Chechnians are doing(not the hostage taking). They are only fighting for what they believe in. They want russia out, and if the the people stand together and if this is really what the people want, then russia should just back off, IMHO. YET, the rebels are doing this the wrong way. They cannot kill innocents in the process. Sure, Russia took some innocent life in their campain as well, i'm sure and if this continues they are just gonna keep on fighting and killing without any productiv results for both sides.
The two should just set aside their differences and TALK. Just like every war the two sides are just too stubborn to give way and make a compromise. Must i mention Israel and Palestine: Can't they just share the place? The same could be said with the Russians and the rebels. If we humans can build guns and weapons of mass destruction tehn I'm sure we can build strong ties with one another and work out a deal to a mutual benefit.

But then again that's just my opinion.