best male npc body

Loredweller · Post by **Loredweller** » Thu May 10, 2001 2:40 am

Originally posted by nael:

... quick side note, the greek's different words for love were not just in reference to women, but also to friendship, lust, knowledge, etc ...

well, topic is gone, nonetheless i should note i'm not about different meanings of Ancient Greek terms (it's obvious), i'm about how it'd be translated into modern languages.

@jennabard
You're an extraordinary being if you can separate your gender from your personality

Sorry, but i fear the SYM thread will not match this one. Reasons obvious

Hope i'm not right once more...
Bye,
L.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Thu May 10, 2001 7:47 am

Loredweller: I was somewhat loath to attempt to even move the topic, because it had such a good momentum. And the SYM forum seems to have a very different nature. Sigh

jennabard · Post by **jennabard** » Thu May 10, 2001 8:38 am

@loredweller- please don't give me that much credit <blush> thats almost an impossiblity, even though i try. self realization is the hardest aspect in our lives.

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu May 10, 2001 9:16 am

@Dragon wench, there's no reason it can't continue, here, in spite of landing in SYM territory, as well. Until the moderators say otherwise, why not keep the posts coming?

Loredweller · Post by **Loredweller** » Thu May 10, 2001 1:27 pm

I'd welcome it. Spontaneous things almost always are better because they most often are more true. It usually brings some hint of inspiration altogether, nice condition to feel either within and outside.

Doesn't seem if this thread proves the spirit prevails over the substance? It started with body, though virtual nonetheless symbol of material

Sorry, i must leave now, it is 23:30 here, somebody needs a bit of sleep sometimes, but i'll be back for i like this thread and i like you

May your Protections from Evil never wear out,
L.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Thu May 10, 2001 7:46 pm

I think that you're right about spontaneity Loredweller. This thread reminds me a little of one of those long latenight discussions amongst friends, when the candles have burned low, everybody has had too much wine but nobody really wants to go home or have the magic of the night end.
I think I'd like to pick up on Fable's theme of disfunctional personalities. This is something that has really struck me playing the game. Many of the characters are very sad and lost. Viconia and Aerie are perhaps the most obvious. But there's also Anomen who fights so hard not to become his drunken father, there's Yoshimo who betrays you against his will (well later on anyway) because he's bonded to another, and there's Minsc who --sadly-- in the real world would probably be institutionalized. Oh and Valygar is fighting a screwed up family background as well.
I'm intrigued at why the game developers did this. Personally, I think it makes the NPCs seem a lot more real, and I think it might also be why so many of us react to them as strongly as we do.
But there is a lot of darkness in this game generally, especially the premise itself. You are the child of the God of Murder, and you wrestle constantly to contain the blackness within your soul. I identify very strongly with that, for I think that we all have a slayer within that threatens to overtake us during times of anger or despair. Yes, this is fantasy, but it's not quite as far from reality as we might initially believe.

nael · Post by **nael** » Thu May 10, 2001 10:28 pm

all of the characters, and most people in real life end up filling a role. when a role is cast upon someone, it is easy to fill that role. there are many people out there who get a reputation(either ill-gotten or not) that once they have the rep, they fullfill the role. the person who is outcast, casts themselves further out. the one dubbed a slut pursues it further. i think the characters in BG2 are the same way, especially viconia and aerie as you, dragon wench, mentioned. the cold hearted b!tch and the helpless desperate girl. Jean Paul Sartre's works really evolve these thoughts.

jennabard · Post by **jennabard** » Thu May 10, 2001 11:18 pm

i, too, have been thinking about the themes of BG2 and the depths of the npc's characters. i think the reason the creators of the game, made the npc flawed is because we won't be able to identify with them if they are perfect. come on, has any of us liked perfect people? they happen to annoy me and the people who only show how happy they are; i tend to greet with a great deal of suspicion and reservation.

the themes of the game intrigued me and i have been going through the game to look for the various themes that play throughout it. the game relies heavily on the themes found in mythology. obviously good vs evil been one of them but there is also a theme about action & consequence, like in the beginnig when you meet the genie and he gave you a question about pushing or not pushing the button to either sacrifice or save yourself. even when you think you answered right, there is a consequence (neither good nor evil) to making any decision. another very important theme is the hero's journey (borrowing heavily from joesph campbell) into the unknown, namely our soul. our past is a mystery, driven by fear we look for answers that only the darkness holds. we lost our soul and it was replaced with godlike powers, whether we wanted it or not. we give chase, fearing the power within. we fought for our soul, following it into hell. and in hell, we were serverly tested, even paying for the choices we make. the test forced us to evaluate who we are and how we define ourself. at the end of the test we come to understand who we are and were better able to overcome the last battle. in hell we were purified by these rites of passage, without it we could never claim the light that is our soul.
the last overall theme is godhood. we are born with a god's blood in our veins, we could become a god if we wanted too. irenicus desire for godhood consumed him, using us to reach his goal. man's ever foolish desire to become god and the price he paids.
we need shadows, it helps to define the light.
what is god without the devil?

Georgi · Post by **Georgi** » Fri May 11, 2001 12:16 am

@Dragon wench - certainly in Anomen's case, I think he and the PC are supposed to identify with each other because they both have inner demons - he says as much himself. And that's part of why he gets annoyed with the PC, because he sees her, daughter of the God of Murder, being strong and repressing the evil within her, which makes him feel bad about all the hate and anger he has bottled up inside that he finds it impossible to control.

I personally like the darker tone of BG2. It makes it far more interesting... and realistic I suppose (LOL, realism in a fantasy world, hmmm). Makes the characters much less one-dimensional.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Fri May 11, 2001 7:30 am

@Jennabard: yes I entirely agree, we can't even begin to comprehend light without dark. I would say that the one defines the other. Indeed, the one necessitates the other. This is also how I see women and men, two distinct, yet similar, halves that comprise the whole. Oh dear that's a little too deep, it's only 7:30 a.m here. Coffee.....

jennabard · Post by **jennabard** » Fri May 11, 2001 5:28 pm

i love flawed characters, to see a story filled with inner demons makes the story grander and more personal.
when i came to the point where i can controll the slayer, i didn't like the idea. i think they should have it done differently. i think it should happen randomly in battle, especially if its againt someone you personlly hate, like bohdi and irenicus. or maybe when your taken too many wounds, you start to slip, getting indications that the slayer is immerging. fighting in the heat of battle while fighting the battle within would be ever dramatic and the choices we make would affect whether the slayer immerge or not. it would certainly make us good folk wary when fighting, making sure the pc has lots of healing potions.
personally i've never used the slayer icon.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Fri May 11, 2001 5:40 pm

Yes I agree, I was disappointed to have the slayer ability replace my special abilities because it seemed artificial and it lessened the plot somehow. I've only used the slayer change once, to defeat Balor. And only because nothing else seemed to work.

Loredweller · Post by **Loredweller** » Sat May 12, 2001 7:33 am

Jenifer, what meaning of the term you mind?
If you're speaking about people so busy with showing how happy they are because their only care is to convince themselves about it in first order, you're quite right. IMO, really happy person never cares, it is our most natural condition of human being, after all

Children are the most happy people, aren't they?
And, IMHO, there are peoples having happy moments and people having happy life, it's not the same and even not the supersets of each other.
Well, it is very wide theme and might appear serious, let's go for games.
I must admit i've never finished Torment, it's fatality and gloom was going to make me nervous if not depress me. I admit, the storyline was framed very well, but there was too few decisions left on me save but plain technical ones (in terms of RPG). I felt also i hadn't enough space for roleplaying, it was already predefined more or less, but the world feeling was definitely not for me. It appears too gothic for me. Nonetheless, and it was strange, i might imagine the feelings of Nameless One quite well. It might be as well i guessed some danger in the game. It is not the great secret the roles we're playing eventually tend to play us as well, the tail begins to wriggle the dog

. If you've known actors on occasion you might know.
BG is better, there is space enough, though i'd like even more. Nonetheless there are some flaws altogether. For one thing, if we're speaking about interactions and, naturally, about romances, i do not feel completely content. Well, they are new factor in BG series (being nearly at the end

), and you think twice before dismiss Jaheira form party with male protagonist, nonetheless i suspect the development team had not a smallest idea about what might follow the first kiss, oh, well, the first night

Save Bodhi episode, of course, ending with, all the same, "thank you", "don't mind", "let's go"...
Though, for it is somehow my playground, too, i understand the difficulties and appreciate the work invested, as a player i'd like more. Maybe i should more often change party members to experience more, though leaving old comrades is not my style.
I do not know about Anomen, have never played my favorite female paladin from BG1 in BG2 still, but i guess this romance is not better in any aspect as Jaheira's.

BTW, have you noted that if you keep the spirit of RPG close you may get Anomen in the party only if you're good aligned? Say, druid protagonist might never get Anomen to join because (s)he should never respond positively to Anomen's second question, don't mention the evil parties.
Altogether is see some discrimination of women in the game. One romance in first order. If not for Jaheira's part, i'd begin to guess the developers have had no inkling about woman's nature

BTW, dear Ladies, how do you find Jaheira from the viewpoint of femininity? Is she believable and the way her thoughts are going acceptable or, at least, apprehensible to you?
TIA,
L.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat May 12, 2001 7:50 am

@Loredweller, no question P:T is dark. As your character recovers his memories (I wish they could have made that a male/female choice), you find that amnesia is the least of your worries: you were a ba!tard, a paranoid killer and a ruthless of manipulator of others in previous lives. You bear a tremendous load of guilt for your deeds, both through speech and action. Many people who know you and help you, both now and in the past, will suffer greatly for that. Then, when you finally dig down deep enough, you discover that your vaunted immortality is nothing more than a sacrifice of various lives for your own: one anonymous death for every time you steal life back. In short, you're a monster.

But at the same time, there's a strong undercurrent in P:T of--well, however much the word makes me queasy--redemption. You *can* give back a measure of pride, honor and affection to your friends. You can help also regain your mortality, and set about redressing the imbalance you've created. I think P:T would have been a far darker game if it had dealt with your previous incarnations; as it is, the end feels extremely good. Too bad you haven't played it. I think that would change a lot of how you feel about the game.

Loredweller · Post by **Loredweller** » Sat May 12, 2001 9:30 am

Fable, i know about all three possible final variations of the game and are aware of the storyline. Nonetheless i felt myself very complex about all this. I started the game and was in here long enough, but there were the moment i left. It came from within, quite possible i wasn't ready or need to grow to such role altogether. I didn't know i was leaving, but i never returned.
I suspect it's because I tend sometimes to take imagined things as real or near it, at least they are affecting me much more it's supposed to be. For one thing there amost always is some background, environment appearing in my mind and i have some emphatic vision of the people and things surrounding and suffering. There might be some good literature behind Sigil, i guess, it's story rather the game, i suspect, what became too hard (if it's the right word) for me. Simple example, if i read some light and sweet book about Germany of beginning of 30ties, or Latvia before the war, there is an imagination growing in the mind about war coming and what is going to happen with those nice and happy people... I do not say it spoils the reading, rather it make senses sharper, but sometimes my imagiation goes too far

Well, it's rather hard to explain, though, i guess, you might understand me quite well

L.

jennabard · Post by **jennabard** » Sat May 12, 2001 8:05 pm

what i meant about my distrust of happy people is those who seem to radiate a false emotion. i tend to go with my gut feelings alot and a tendency to pick up emotions from others. i have met very few people who are truly content that they seem to radiate joy. there is a serenity to them. but the people i can't stand are thoughs who fake an emotion. fake being happy when they are not and try to convince the world that it is a happy place to live. i tend to spot them a mile away because they are loud about how happy they are.

hope this explaination claifies
my meaning for you, lordweller.

as too jaheira, i tend to dislike her and love at the same time. i've found out that i am too much like her. i value honesty and honor, being very truthful and blunt towards people makes my husband cringe when ever we hang with friends (should have seen me with my mother-in-law! i think i'd scared her). i've only played the game through with a female pc so you could practically feel us bickering like two old women. i'm now playing it with a male cleric/ranger to watch the romance unfold, i hope to get more insight to her character. in a female standpoint, she is very believable, she's a type a person that needs a man not to back down when arguring with her. jaheira must respect a man before she will ever fall in love with him. she's a softy deep down inside i bet, she has to be if she married kalid.

[ 05-12-2001: Message edited by: jennabard ]

Loredweller · Post by **Loredweller** » Sun May 13, 2001 9:33 am

Originally posted by jennabard:

hope this explaination claifies
my meaning for you, lordweller.

We might understand each other quite well if we'd try, i guess

I might sign under some things you have said in spite of all differences between us.
Sincerely L.

[ 05-13-2001: Message edited by: Loredweller ]

Vehemence · Post by **Vehemence** » Sun May 13, 2001 7:42 pm

There's very little advice in men's magazines, because men don't think there's a lot they don't know. Women do. Women want to learn. Men think, "I know what I'm doing, just show me somebody naked." - Jerry Seinfeld

That's all I'm willing to say on this whole philosophical undertanding of the opposite sex debate.

Sex debate... hmmm... sounds strangely akin to master....

Yep, and there goes my credability, see, look over there, yep, there it goes! Bye bye credability!

jennabard · Post by **jennabard** » Sun May 13, 2001 8:31 pm

@loredweller-

same here

Loredweller · Post by **Loredweller** » Mon May 14, 2001 12:10 am

Originally posted by Vehemence:

Men think, "I know what I'm doing, just show me somebody naked." - Jerry Seinfeld

From the position of a man with remarkable experience (in terms of time at least) i should notice that a hint, an offer most often works far better. Wise woman makes a man to desire look behind something and set apart something man might desire to look behind. It's a catch either for eye and mind (and anything else you might imagine

).
As for men's magazines - have you noticed most of them are made by men and with main purpose to make money? It's only a top of the iceberg, one might seriously misunderstand men if one's guess relies on them heavily. The same might be said about women's magazines altogether

However, knowledge about selection of magazines one reads and frequency one does might be of great help in guessing the nature of a person, of course.

Just MO, though

L.