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Hi Lost One, I was going to post in the other thread later on...now I'm not sure where to post. I have to sleep now, but some brief points:

1. Men's and women's brains are different - sure, they differ in size, slighly in lateralisation and anatomy and perhaps in some other aspects as well. The important issue however is: is the function different? White people and Asian people's brains also differ. Does that make whites and asians differ at a functional level, ie does it have any relevance?

PS, in my field, which is brain neurotransmission, men and women do not differ.

2. The book "Men are from Mars and women are from Venus" is not a book based on scientific findings, it's a book based on the writer's opinions and some very selected data. Please don't confuse this kind of popular books with science.

3. Just this week I read about 3 cases of women raping men. Man 1 had reported the rape to the police, but he regretted doing it since the police had insinuated that the victim may have liked it and even joked about being envious of the victim. Man 2 never reported the rape since his friends reacted with humiliating in the same manner as the police did in the case on Man 1, so Man 2 was afraid to tell anyone after that. Man 3 was raped by a gang of females at his workplace. After the rape they would often comment the event to him in a manner that implicated that he liked it, that he would like it to happen again etc - also in front of other workmates. Man 3 never reported the rape to the police, he committed suicide a short period later.

4. Males may masturbate more than women in some cultures - not in all though. Also, rate of female masturbation change over time, ie women who are over 70 years old today, masturbated less when they were 20 than the 20 year old women do today - an indication that masturbation behaviour is highly affected by sociocultural condition.

5. Just last week there was a new Swedish report showing that females engage in extramarital sex more often than males. What do you make of that?

[QUOTE=C Elegans]5. Just last week there was a new Swedish report showing that females engage in extramarital sex more often than males. What do you make of that?[/QUOTE]

That's why I like Swedish chicks.

As for the rape thing, a man has got to enjoy it somewhat, because if he is not excited, then a limp penis is of no use to a woman. In the woman's case, a guy can still force himself in her, regardless of her being turned on or not. So, unless the woman inserts an object anally in the man, then I do not see how raping a guy is a big deal.

Anyway, I agree with most of your points, but everything you have said so far suggests that men and women are exactly alike, the only difference being physical. Do you believe in this?

I'd also like to mention Freud in his belief that women go through different psychological processes with the Electra complex (or 'penis envy'), and there is a line of study that says physiological differences also play a part in determining gender behavioral differences.

Lost One wrote:As for the rape thing, a man has got to enjoy it somewhat, because if he is not excited, then a limp penis is of no use to a woman.

No, a man can get an erection for many other reasons than sexual arousal. Have you never awoke in the morning with an erection without being sexually excited? Men can get an erection from being nervous, afraid, stressed or needing to pee.

Anyway, I agree with most of your points, but everything you have said so far suggests that men and women are exactly alike, the only difference being physical. Do you believe in this?

I am convinced that in a society where men and women get the same social conditioning, the differences between individuals are larger than the difference between men and women at group level.

I'd also like to mention Freud in his belief that women go through different psychological processes with the Electra complex (or 'penis envy'), and there is a line of study that says physiological differences also play a part in determining gender behavioral differences.

Sure, as a lic psychologist I of course know Freud, and I also know his development "theories" (they are not theories in a proper scientific sense) are poetry, not psychology as a scientific discipline. There is no evidence of what Freud called "penis envy" - it is more likely that the penis envy concept reflects Freud's own Victorian ideas.

Back to sleep!

Sorry to digress
But I maintain.. any woman who has gone camping and hiking likely *has* experienced penis envy!

[QUOTE=C Elegans]No, a man can get an erection for many other reasons than sexual arousal. Have you never awoke in the morning with an erection without being sexually excited? Men can get an erection from being nervous, afraid, stressed or needing to pee. [/QUOTE]

Just wanted to point out that in addition to this it is also quite possible to rape someone without the ingredient of penetration. There is no need for erection to commit a rape.

C Elegans wrote:No, a man can get an erection for many other reasons than sexual arousal. Have you never awoke in the morning with an erection without being sexually excited? Men can get an erection from being nervous, afraid, stressed or needing to pee.

Well, when I have an erection, which yes, can come spontaneously, I always associate to it to sexual arousal, which may be conscious or unconscious. As for the last bit about getting an erection from being nervous, afraid, stressed or needing to pee, I disagree with this. While you can have an erection along with feeling these things, I don't think they cause erections by themselves. I know being afraid or wanting to pee never turned me on. Quite the contrary. But I suppose a spontaneous erection can occur along with this.

I am convinced that in a society where men and women get the same social conditioning, the differences between individuals are larger than the difference between men and women at group level.

And yet, you do not risk to say that men and women can be exactly alike in all things non-physical? Doesn't physiological differences affect behavior?
I know women are just as capable as men in just about anything (except soccer, boxing, wrestling which is not in the mud, driving, etc... ), but how can they have the same behavior as men at all times when our bodies are different? Does psychology not agree that physiological differences affect our behaviors in different ways?

Lost One wrote:Well, when I have an erection, which yes, can come spontaneously, I always associate to it to sexual arousal, which may be conscious or unconscious. As for the last bit about getting an erection from being nervous, afraid, stressed or needing to pee, I disagree with this. While you can have an erection along with feeling these things, I don't think they cause erections by themselves. I know being afraid or wanting to pee never turned me on. Quite the contrary. But I suppose a spontaneous erection can occur along with this.

For a detailed description of the mechanics that cause erection, go here:
http://www.fpnotebook.com/URO8.htm
In short, erection of the penis is caused by the corpus cavernosum, two columns of tissue, being filled with blood. The physiological system that cause the corpus cavernous to become blood filled, is connected to the general arousal system governed by the sympathetic nervous system. This system is activated by fear, stress or anxiety as well as by sexual arousal. For instance, when the sympaticus is activated your heart rate and blood pressure goes up, and more blood is transferred to peripheral body parts such as arms, legs and penis. Sexual arousal is just one of many types of arousal that are regulated by this system. That's why men can get a spontanous, unwanted erection triggered by fear. Some men can even get an involontary ejaculation by severe pain, anxiety or fear. This has been demonstrated in experiments, and reported in many cases. Just check any medical textbook about male sexual organs.

It is actually a great danger in believing that erection during rape or sexual abuse implies that the victim had some pleasure out of the event, because this kind notion often leads to the victim blaming himself even more than rape-victims ususally do, and when adult women or men abuse children or very young boys, it is often used as yet another means to control the victim (See? I know you want it, I know you like it, etc). This often has the effect that the victim is even less likely to report the abuse to the police, since he feels he had himself to blame, or, especially if it's a child or young person, the victim may start questioning himself wheter it was really an abuse or whether the perpertrator was right to say he liked it. So, the erranous belief that erection must be connected to sexual arousal can actually have destructive consequences. Rape of males, regardless of whether perpertrator is a man or a woman, is probably the most underreported crime in the Western world, still male rape victims suffer as much as female rape victims, perhaps even more since it's a taboo in society and more violence is usually used in rapes of males than females.

And yet, you do not risk to say that men and women can be exactly alike in all things non-physical? Doesn't physiological differences affect behavior?
I know women are just as capable as men in just about anything (except soccer, boxing, wrestling which is not in the mud, driving, etc... ), but how can they have the same behavior as men at all times when our bodies are different? Does psychology not agree that physiological differences affect our behaviors in different ways?

I would not say that two individuals can be exactly the same either - not even monozygotic twins who have identical genes and are reared together in the same family, become exactly the same.

Physiological and behavioural factors are in interaction with each other, but for a physiological feature to have impact on behaviour, it must first and foremost have a functional implact. For instance, you and I may have different size of our left kidney. This does not affect the function the kidney has in yours and mine body, respectively. Thus, kidney size per se can't be said to have an impact on behaviour. A white and a black person have many differences in pigmentation, and these differences are also at a functional level - the black person's eyes can take more UV-radiation without damage, the black person can stay in blazing sunshine without protection all day without getting burned and thus has a decreased risk for developing malign melanoma compared to the white person. But - do these differences contribute to differences in behaviour in any psychologically meaningful way?

The pigmentation difference might make the white person to use sunblock and wear sunglasses in the summer, and it would perhaps also cause the white person to avoid a long journey to Sahara in the middle of the summer. In that very concrete and limited way you can say it affects their behaviour. However, it is highly unlikely that these limited differences should in any way affect the black and white person's functioning regarding personality, emotion, cognition, social function, etc. In short - the difference has no functional effect outside the particular area of sun-bathing behaviour.

In the same sense, you could say that having a pair of breast with more fat tissue, cause a woman to wear a bra, especially when running, jumping or performing other dynamic physical exercises. But the existance or lack of breasts is, like differences in pigmentation, highly unlikely to have any general impact of psychological factors and behaviour patterns.

You ask if physiological differences affect behavior, and yes they do, but differences in behaviour also affect the physiology.

So: many of the anatomical differences between men and women have no or little impact on behaviour patters and basic psychological characteristics. Science has still much to learn about the mechanism that determine human behaviour, but this much can be concluded from current knowledge:

- All of human behaviour is the result of a very complex chain of interactions in all directions between genes, biology and environmental factors. Your brain alters structurally depending on what you do with it. Synapses (connections between nerve cells) you don't use waste away. Expression of a gene can be altered depending on what you do and what happens to you.

- Human behaviours are determined by learning to 99%.

- The less restrictions our sociocultural environment have, the more will our genes influence our behaviour. Thus, we can expect genetic differences to play a larger role in for instance Western Europe's rich societies, than in the poor and disease-struck slums of Calcutta.

- There are no difference between men and women in regards to general emotional, social and cognitive characteristics, need and functions.

- There are some specific differences between men and women that are probably not due to social conditioning: men score better than women in tests of some spatial abilities such as mental rotation of 3D objects, and women score better is tests of visumotoric speed. However, difference (ie range and standard deviation) is larger between individuals than between men and women at group level. (That's why you need very large groups of people to find a statistically significant difference between men and women.)

- All human behaviour and psychological features, are connected to and dependant on, the brain. Brain function is dependant of brain cells communicating with each electrochemically. To this date, there is no evidence that support any gender differences at a cellular or chemical level.

Anatomical differences in reproductive organs and levels of a couple of hormones, plays little role for human behaviour compared to the similarity in the most complex organ of the body - the brain.

@C Elegans: I am impressed

But isn't it true:
1. Women have a better "connection" between the 2 hemisfere (corpus callosum?) and therefore also is better than men to think "abscrat" and to see "the hole picture" of many problems. Wheres the man more often thinks "one line" and focus on one problem?
2. The male hormon (testosteron) and female hormon (estrogen, gestagen) also influence the brain and thereby can produce different behavior for man and woman? I mean many women in menopause have a change in mode and behavior - because lack of estrogen?
3. I am not sure if I agree with you when you say 99% of human behavior is related to behavior. Can't you explain that more detailed please

1. Women have a thicker corpus callosum. This is not known to affect brain function or cognitive functions in any way. There are no reports I know of that demonstrate women have better "synthesing" abilities than males.

2. Sex hormones affect the brain a lot during the prenatal stage - it is speculated that flux of hormones prenatally determine sexual orientation. However, studies where sex hormon levels are manipulated in adults, show no changes in brain. Indirect changes that we cannot measure, can't be ruled out of course.

3. Well, etiologists and behaviour scientists have models to analyse to what extent a species behaviour is determined by innate, inherited instince and by learned behaviour. A worm like C Elegans acts mostly upon inherited instinct and has little learning ability. Humans on the other hand are extremely dependant on model learning, generalisation and conditioning. I'll find you a reference later on if you want to read more about this kind of estimations.

PS: Some clarifying terminology: A difference such as a thicker corpus callosum, would be called a neuroanatomical difference (just as a larger kidney would be an anatomical difference). A difference such as more cortically lateralised primary language areas, would be called a structural difference. The level I work with, which is most closely related to function of the brain, is the neurotransmission level.

Thanks.
I was always fascinated by neuroanatomy and neurophysiology. But it is many years ago I studied it - so I guess many things have changed since that
1. Interesting why womens corpus callosum are thicker. Because if it is thicker it also have potential for more transport of information?
2. I only wonder: a lot of women have change in mode or behavior in menopuase - I always thought is was due to change in female hormons?
3. I would very much like if you could find an artikel or link, when you have time

[QUOTE=C Elegans]Anatomical differences in reproductive organs and levels of a couple of hormones, plays little role for human behaviour compared to the similarity in the most complex organ of the body - the brain.[/QUOTE]

Well, that summed it well enough for me.

There are still points I could argue with you C E. One of them is that I think physiological differences does impact on behavior more than you say it does. But maybe I'm just thinking on an animal level. That is, animals are mainly male dominant, and this is clearly not the result of simple, cultural conditioning as other animals in other parts of the world show the same gender characteristics. Thus, I tend to think that there is more to it than cultural conditioning. After all, cultural conditioning stemmed from something that existed before. If males weren't more dominant than females before the concept of male dominance ever existed, then why did the concept ever surge? And if different civilizations of old that never communicated with one another also displayed this general male dominance, then is there not some basic truth to it?

If anything, it could also be genetic, the gender differences. But I sincerely believe they are there, planted in us, ready to influence our behaviors, if not for our brains and cultural conditioning (which can work the other way too) nullifying this.

[QUOTE=Lost One]Well, that summed it well enough for me. [/QUOTE]

Let me tell you, Lost One. The human body is almost as much a mystery as is the origin of organic life itself. As far as we have come, there is still far to go.

BTW, if this is the first thing you're reading, CE, please check your PM.

Ok this is telling me a couple of things. 1) There are to many people with more degrees of education then I do, 2) these people have more time then I do to sit here and write these long winded speches(?) about the human condition. 3) we are getting alil of topic i think this is about rpgs and we people think they are male dominated not the neurology. To sum this up, how do I say this with out losing anyone. Basicly more women are playing then before because of marketing, sell to the right group of people and you have a seller(?). It does not matter about physiology or the brain. Yes all of you are right about most of this stuff but... it doesnt hit the problem at hand. its marketing and selling to the right group. Men will always seek violence. And I am only speaking as a man I dont know what women want to see in rpg's.

Actually - the posts have not not really been off topic.

The "longwinded" argumentation came up when somebody stated that it was biological differences that made men play more cRPG (games) then women - whereas a number of us meant it was cultural defined.
Now C.E. has been kind enough to post quite a number of scientific information.
Therefore the discussion about biological differences between female and male are on topic.

I have to agree with Xandax. The whole argument about RPGs being male-dominated is part of a larger discussion in which essentially three views are presented: 1) RPGs aren't male dominated; 2) RPGs are male dominated, but this is subject to change, and change is occurring, right now; and 3) of course RPGs are male-dominated, because these games involve aggressive exploration and fighting, and males are biologically inclined to this.

The sad thing is that many of the cultural arguments that masquerade as scientific ones are used by game companies to justify the simplification of RPGs. We're repeatedly told that no one plays RPGs once they reach their 20's, for instance--despite all the research done that shows to the contrary, intelligently designed games are quite popular with the over-the 21-hill crowd. (The SimCity franchise is a good example of this.) I know of one game VP whose proof consists of the fact that he hates computer games, while his teenage son plays them. (Very large, scientifically gathered sample, that.) Bioware itself was started by four physicians who loved tabletop and computer roleplaying; but they had to dumb down KotoR to appeal to the audience Lucasarts said was the right and proper one who bought RPGs.

Back to subject: Having worked on a professional MMORPG for four years, and knowing several other MMORPG teams, I can confidently state the mix of programmers/gamemasters is equal between men and women. And that in at least the one I worked on, the sides of techie vs artsy were also split evenly down the middle.

A funny thought...

[QUOTE=fable]I have to agree with Xandax. The whole argument about RPGs being male-dominated is part of a larger discussion in which essentially three views are presented: 1) RPGs aren't male dominated; 2) RPGs are male dominated, but this is subject to change, and change is occurring, right now; and 3) of course RPGs are male-dominated, because these games involve aggressive exploration and fighting, and males are biologically inclined to this.

The sad thing is that many of the cultural arguments that masquerade as scientific ones are used by game companies to justify the simplification of RPGs. We're repeatedly told that no one plays RPGs once they reach their 20's, for instance--despite all the research done that shows to the contrary, intelligently designed games are quite popular with the over-the 21-hill crowd. (The SimCity franchise is a good example of this.) I know of one game VP whose proof consists of the fact that he hates computer games, while his teenage son plays them. (Very large, scientifically gathered sample, that.) Bioware itself was started by four physicians who loved tabletop and computer roleplaying; but they had to dumb down KotoR to appeal to the audience Lucasarts said was the right and proper one who bought RPGs.

Back to subject: Having worked on a professional MMORPG for four years, and knowing several other MMORPG teams, I can confidently state the mix of programmers/gamemasters is equal between men and women. And that in at least the one I worked on, the sides of techie vs artsy were also split evenly down the middle.[/QUOTE]

(Somewhat-off topic) Another thing I read in Playstation magazine a few years back. Supposedly, a young woman during the big breakout of video games in the 80s would really attract guys if they were really into video games themselves. The writer of this article, being a woman herself, was apparently one of those women.

[QUOTE=Xandax]Now C.E. has been kind enough to post quite a number of scientific information.
[/QUOTE]

I see it that way:
Every time CE is posting something about science (neurology), I have an opportinity for learning something interesting.

[QUOTE=fable] for instance--despite all the research done that shows to the contrary, intelligently designed games are quite popular with the over-the 21-hill crowd. [/QUOTE]
hehe... over-the-hill... thats a fun fun word that I hope I never hav e use...
Anyway, I just can't see an equal representation of the sexes in RPGs... maybe your server is unnaturally gifted with a more equal division but most of the servers I'm on are predominatedly male,
As for science eliminating bias, science IS a bias all in of itself, just wanted to point that out

[QUOTE=Morril]I was always fascinated by neuroanatomy and neurophysiology. But it is many years ago I studied it - so I guess many things have changed since that
1. Interesting why womens corpus callosum are thicker. Because if it is thicker it also have potential for more transport of information?
2. I only wonder: a lot of women have change in mode or behavior in menopuase - I always thought is was due to change in female hormons?
3. I would very much like if you could find an artikel or link, when you have time [/QUOTE]

Neuroscience is currently the fastest changing topic around - the current problem is A. that we make a lot of findings but don't know the meaning of these findings (same problems as in genetics) and B. that we don't have the technology to test many hypothesis.

1. Theoretically speaking yes, and formerly it was thought that the thicker CC in women contributed to better simultaneous capacity. However, then it was demonstrated that women do not have better simultaneous capacity than males, so that hypothesis had to be rejected. In recent years, many subcortical connections between the two brain hemispheres has been discovered, so it is actually unclear what role - if any - a thicker CC may play functionally.
2. Both men and women go through hormonal changes in the middle age. The menopause is actually the period when menstruantion has been abscent for >1 year. The period when people (both men and women) may experience symptoms is the perimenopause, ie the transition period between prior hormone levels and the menopause. This period usually lasts for a couple of years and may be associated with hot rashes and increased sweating. However, the association to mood is uncertain. A majority of women do not experience mood changes during the perimenopause, and the group who does are generally women with previous history of affective disorders. However, the changes can go in both directions - some women with a history of depression get a depression, whereas some improve their mood. Also, it has been reported that some men who go through the "andropause" get depressive symptoms too...so it's difficult to draw any conclusion, but it seems that the changes, the period of destablisation of sex hormone system, may affect mood in both sexes. However, it is noteworthy that personality traits and cognitive functions do not change over this period.
3. Sure, there are 1000:s of good articles, not so many good weblinks however. What would you be interested in?

[QUOTE=Galuf the Dwarf](Somewhat-off topic) Another thing I read in Playstation magazine a few years back. Supposedly, a young woman during the big breakout of video games in the 80s would really attract guys if they were really into video games themselves. The writer of this article, being a woman herself, was apparently one of those women. [/QUOTE]

By coincidence, Microsoft sent out a press release today touching upon all this. It reads, in part:

Recent surveys have shown a tremendous surge of female gamers, and contrary to the common perception of video gaming, women make up nearly 40 percent of all video and computer gamers. On Microsoft's Zone.com, two out of every three online gamers are female, and roughly 60% of all online gamers are over the age of 35.

This not only explodes the myth of RPGs being male-dominated, but also the one about the extreme youth of gamers as a group.