Idiots vs. Brainers

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Fri Jan 05, 2001 2:24 am

This post for 2 reasons. One, post 80! Whoopy! *Happy Dance*

Now, I agree that a Sorceror would have a better chance, but thats because he can cast more spells, more often. Aside from that, the rest of the variables still kick in, so PHHHBT on you.

------------------
Courage is Bravery,
Bravery is Courage,
Children are Flamable

Rail · Post by **Rail** » Fri Jan 05, 2001 3:13 am

An inquisitor would have the advantage over all other fighter types, and should beat the mage a majority of the time. They are keyed toward defeating mages. Ture seeing ability, super dispel magic, magic resistance with Carsomyr. They should have the upper hand. Still depends on the player, but all things being equal, I think they would usually emerge victorious.

Sorcerors offer flexibility in when and where they cast their spells to defeat a variety of opponents, but they generally have fewer spells to choose from. Since you don't need 15 different 4th level spells, the sorceror is a stronger choice for an experienced player when adventuring. However, since you would know the opponent and could prepare ahead of time, the sorceror only has a slight advantage over other mages in a planned duel, IMO.

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Fri Jan 12, 2001 3:35 pm

Bringing back the good old debate for all the new people.

In case some are too lazy to read the begining (no offense) Here's a recap. Fighters vs. Mages. Most people are going mages, and they give good points. Others are Fighters (blockeads) and give reasons for them.

Read through, and add your voice... Let's see who'll win this one....

------------------
Courage is Bravery,
Bravery is Courage,
Children are Flamable

Anatres · Post by **Anatres** » Fri Jan 12, 2001 3:43 pm

Yeah, too lazy to read all the other posts. But what about the Kensai/Mage? Isn't this the best of both worlds (especially if you dual at level 8 Kensai). Memorize a bunch of 'touch' type spells and move in! Slash, bash and then fry them!

Bill · Post by **Bill** » Fri Jan 12, 2001 4:11 pm

Has anyone tried Mplayer.com? There are plenty of players who want to duel,and most of them are hacked.So,if anyone want ot try his/her player,can do it there.

For me dueling is stupid-and using hacked characters with custom made items & spells is even worse (we are not talking about Diablo here).
From what i have seen,most players prefer fighter/mages for the duels.An exception was a player using a legitimate berseker-he claimed to have a 22-2 record in duels.

If you want to make a duel with your characters,simply import them in a mplayer game (ie in chapter 2),start the game,pause,give orders attacking each other and watch the outcome.Of course you need to pause and reassign orders-especially for a mage.

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Fri Jan 12, 2001 4:20 pm

My Paladin with Carsomyr, 2 rings of Gaxx, dragon armor, and an amulet of magic resistance solos mages. I even soloed those stupid mages of the twisted rune (only one I was concerned about was the vampire).

I definitely say a Paladin with the full deluxe gear could eat a mage for lunch.

However, this is just my opinion based on BG2. If we're referring to PnP, I'd have to say that it would all depend on the player.

Stoner Cold · Post by **Stoner Cold** » Fri Jan 12, 2001 5:19 pm

it depends what the fighter\paladin\whatever has. if he has a cloak of mirroring he could probably beat the mage easily. i think its cloak of mirroring, its the one that reflects magic damage. u get it in sahugian city.

------------------
And thats the bottom line, 'cos Stoner Cold said so!

Nighthawk · Post by **Nighthawk** » Fri Jan 12, 2001 5:39 pm

Lots of good posts, lots of misinformed and misleading posts...all in all, it really comes down to equipment and I've tried to cover all the gamebreakers here.

No magical items: Mage blasts fighter to death with skull traps, flame arrows, or other spells on contingencies and triggers. However, with no magical items at all a monk will probably beat any other class due to stealth (not currently implemented for duels), 63% magical resistance, great saves, and a better offense than any other warrior (without magical items).

Cloak of Mirroring: ALL spell damage the mage inflicts on the fighter will instead come back on him. This includes Horrid Wilting, Cloud Kill, and other area effects -- test it out for yourself it you don't believe me. Summoned monsters, even pit fiends, will die as fast as the mage can summon them and eventually he'll run out of spells. If the fighter lacks protection from hold/charm AND the mage can get off MULTIPLE Maliasons (due to the low saves at that level) he MIGHT be able to hold or charm the fighter if the fighter is using the cloak rather than the scroll but the fighter definitely has the advantage. Stoneskin is not real useful since it doesn't block fire/ice/acid/electrical/poison damage and a mage taking that damage consistently will have spell failure.

Magic Resistance: A fully equipped paladin or monk can approach 100% magic resistance and with a potion can easily exceed it. This is similar to a Protection from Magic scroll except it doesn't stop Imprison.

Protection from Magic: Even better than the cloak since it protects against hold/charm/etc AND against Imprison (see below). The mage would have to be stupid to cast damaging spells against a fighter equipped with either. Protection from Magic ON THE MAGE may be even better since it also dispells and prevents any defensive spells, summonings or going invis (although apparently triggers can still activate).

Staff of Magi: The mage can INSTANTLY go invis anytime he wants by re-equipping the staff. Even True Sight will only flash him on the screen briefly before he vanishes again. This allows the mage to wait out a Protection from Magic or cause a draw against a cloak + other protection equipped fighter. HOWEVER, this doesn't work correctly in any duels people can currently do since the players are assumed to be on the same side and therefore can always see eachother.

Imprison Scrolls: In any case where the fighter isn't protected by Protection from Magic (or a berzerk berzerker) this will be an instant win for the mage.

[This message has been edited by Nighthawk (edited 01-12-2001).]

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Mon Jan 15, 2001 6:59 pm

Ok people, this thread must go on! This is a great discussion, and I want to hear what some of the new members think on it. This is a sister thread to Full out war. Therefore will also be part of the discussion. For information on Fighters, Paladins Mages and such, come here. Let the discussion resume!

------------------
Courage is Bravery,
Bravery is Courage,
Children are Flamable

samcu · Post by **samcu** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 10:45 pm

I thought that the mighty Cleric would win: vs ranged/melee Fighters/Spellcaster - cast sanctuary and blade barrier, add animal summoning. Shield of reflection for any ranged attacks, I think it also reflect acid and flame arrows back.

Some Ground Rules of Duelling

Duration: Four quarters. Four turns per quarter. Ten rounds per turn.
Place: Gladiator arena at the back of CC
Condition: Players can quit/admit defeat by exiting the arena. However, fatality is preferred for the entertainment value. (Contracted players cannot sue the tournament organisers for any wrongful injuries/deaths.)

Dúnadan · Post by **Dúnadan** » Mon Mar 26, 2001 4:55 pm

You all seem to be forgetting something. While the intelligence of the average fighter is a round 10-12, any mage woth his robes has an int of near 18. Now, thats super-genius level, and even though it is impossible to implement in the game, the mage would outhink the fighter evry time, and even if he barely had any spells, would still come up with a way to defeat the fighter. Of course, with human players behind the PC's, this factor cannot come into play, since nobody would roleplay a character that dumbly.

------------------
President of the World Alliance for the Advancement of Me (W.A.A.M.)

mizuno · Post by **mizuno** » Mon Mar 26, 2001 5:35 pm

@bill, why u think dualing is stupid? i think dualing offers a lot of flexbility and can beat almost every single class, (has to exclude inquisitor and some other good class) my ranger/cleric kicks ass even better than when my own cavalier. he can fight and has lots of cleric spells. anddon't mention the mighty Kensai/Mage. with a lot of experience to grap, 9 levels of experience is nothing in BG2, and lvl9 of figter(any type, inc. ranger), the character could quite easily get to max ex cap. and thus same would be more powerful than single clas character.

@Nighthawk, imprisonment scrolls are not available in the game unless you use SK.

------------------
Mizuno is a Proud Member of the Brotherhood of the Woods

Bruce Lee · Post by **Bruce Lee** » Mon Mar 26, 2001 5:36 pm

I think that if you test out classes you should only allow generic weapons. No robe of vecna, no cloak of mirroring etc. I mean otherwise just use the rift device followed by ring of the ram. But someone stated a very reasonable comment before. If the mage is fully prepared he should win. On the other hand if they fought ten times and in every new battle the spells the mages had used were no longer available, then the fighter would eventually triumph.

------------------
Proud member of the Brotherhood of the woods.

mizuno · Post by **mizuno** » Mon Mar 26, 2001 5:58 pm

Originally posted by Bruce Lee:
I think that if you test out classes you should only allow generic weapons. No robe of vecna, no cloak of mirroring etc. I mean otherwise just use the rift device followed by ring of the ram. But someone stated a very reasonable comment before. If the mage is fully prepared he should win. On the other hand if they fought ten times and in every new battle the spells the mages had used were no longer available, then the fighter would eventually triumph.

agree ingenerally case,

------------------
Mizuno is a Proud Member of the Brotherhood of the Woods

Angelus · Post by **Angelus** » Tue Mar 27, 2001 5:34 am

Originally posted by Dúnadan:
You all seem to be forgetting something. While the intelligence of the average fighter is a round 10-12, any mage woth his robes has an int of near 18. Now, thats super-genius level, and even though it is impossible to implement in the game, the mage would outhink the fighter evry time, and even if he barely had any spells, would still come up with a way to defeat the fighter. Of course, with human players behind the PC's, this factor cannot come into play, since nobody would roleplay a character that dumbly.

Personally I think whatever his int. is (of course not to dumb), a good trained and experienced warrior could always tacticaly outhink a mage with high int. What counts in this case is the experience and the way of thinking, not the pure IQ. I don't think a mage would know all that much about fighting without spells.

Garcia · Post by **Garcia** » Tue Mar 27, 2001 6:06 am

the sorc./mage will win for sure.
there are so many spells to choose from that more than 5 of them will leave the fighter no chance.
take spell trigger with haste/improved haste, then you have a hit and run sorc. able to outrun him and throw spells at will or summon some badies to keep him occupied.

Manveru · Post by **Manveru** » Tue Mar 27, 2001 6:19 am

But there is always the third side : in this case priests of both types - they could be regarded as "brainers" because they usually have high wisdom. e.g Druid's Insects spell - causes that mages cannot cast spells but it also could cause the fighter panic. What is more priests could better than mages defend themselves in close combat.(Priest respectively to his strength could wear any shield or armor and has more Hp than mage)

So, what do you thing about priests ?

------------------
Manveru Telkontar, a Proud Member of the Brotherhood of the Woods.

Elen sila Lumenn' Omentielvo

Bill · Post by **Bill** » Tue Mar 27, 2001 9:13 am

@mizuno: I was reffering to duels,not dual classing.

Kovi · Post by **Kovi** » Tue Mar 27, 2001 9:21 am

Yet another duel topic.

If someone is interested the PC vs PC thread is quite a good one: [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/002735.html"]http://www.gamebanshee.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/002735.html[/url]
or some real weapon/class test (only dumb fighting) results in: [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/003204.html"]http://www.gamebanshee.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/003204.html[/url]

koz-ivan · Post by **koz-ivan** » Tue Mar 27, 2001 4:52 pm

imo what these threads are missing is at 20th level the mage wins every time in p&p games why?

cause at 1st level the ftr wins every time, the ad&d games have always been about balance but that does not mean a 20th level ftr is better than an archmage.

does anyone really think drizzt could take down elminster?