Facism and its characteristics

ik911 · Post by **ik911** » Fri Feb 11, 2005 3:41 pm

[QUOTE=CM]Ik911 the 14 apply with the fact that democracy does the opposite. It respects human rights. It has freedom of speech. The media is free etc. Democracy is the opposite of those 14 points.[/QUOTE]
Hahahaha...

No.

There is no democracy that is exactly the opposite of those 14. Really.
People tend to confuse Democracy with Perfect Government and Prosperity, so I don't blame you, but democracies are far from the opposite.

It started with Greek democracy strongly showing points 2.3.4.5.8
So that was a pretty good score, but the communities were small, not more than 100k people at max (don't have the exact number).

And now the Bush regime is showing all 14.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Fri Feb 11, 2005 5:14 pm

[QUOTE=Xandax]Well - seeing as fascisme is a more modern day "invention" it would not be unlikely that it have drawned inspiration from the old tried-by-fire despotisme.
You could even compare it to a warlord ruleling tribes a long time ago, and still finds similarities.[/QUOTE]

Despotism, fascism and warlord ruling have one feature in common that is opposite to democracy; they are authoritarian forms of regimes. Since they all belong to the same group, it's not surprising they share some common features.

Athenian democracy was very different from modern democracy, we would not define it as democracy today, and political systems are not classified so that they fall into the same cathegory today, the name is the same though so some people believe Athenian democracy is more similar to modern democracy that it actually is.

[quote="CM]
Democracy is the opposite of those 14 points. [/quote"]

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Nationalism is actively opposed, all forms of discrimination based on etnic background is prohibited.
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Human rights regarded as extremely important, are fundation for the law.
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - No identification of enemies at all.
4. Supremacy of the Military - Military almost non existent, extremely small part of national budget.
5. Rampant Sexism - Most gender equal country in the world, special programs to regulate and control gender equality. Free divorce, abortion, adoption of children for single parents and gay people, gay couples have same rights as straight couples.
6. Controlled Mass Media - Free press, no censorship and no control except law that prohibits spreading of racist propaganda.
7. Obsession with National Security - Hardly no national security at all.
8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Religion and government separated, secular society.
9. Corporate Power is Protected - Industry pay high taxes, job market and employer's rights regulated by law.
10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Labour unions have much power and govermental support.
11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - No censorship of arts or academics, free education all the way to PhD, art and culture have governmental financial support.
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - liberal views, low punishment, psychiatric care for psychiatrically ill criminals.
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Leaders are voted for in elections.
14. Fraudulent Elections - Elections to parliament every 4th year, no corruption or fraud in elections.

Sweden is pretty much like most Northwest European democracies, save we have higher taxes than most.

CM · Post by CM » Fri Feb 11, 2005 5:16 pm

Btw that applies to most if not all European countries. Even some in Latin America.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Fri Feb 11, 2005 5:33 pm

[QUOTE=CM]Btw that applies to most if not all European countries. Even some in Latin America.[/QUOTE]

I suspected as much, but you are the political scientist - I'm only good at brains, not societies

CM · Post by CM » Fri Feb 11, 2005 5:37 pm

lol. I am nothing of the sort. To quote my mother i am immature brat

But i agree. Democracy is the opposite of those 14 points as you pointed out. The same can be said for all OECD countries and a good many others.

jopperm2 · Post by **jopperm2** » Fri Feb 11, 2005 6:19 pm

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - We're fairly nationalistic in that most think America is the best country there is.
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - I wouldn't say disdain, but it isn't always top priority
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - Let's just say that after the 9/11 attacks there was a US flag on almost every car on the road.
4. Supremacy of the Military - We aren't run by military generals, but it is very important
5. Rampant Sexism - I wouldn't say rampant, I'm male though. There are some gender limitations.
6. Controlled Mass Media - So-called "offensive" media controlled. Mostly free press
7. Obsession with National Security - Ahem.. No comment
8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Not intertwined but politicians admit they are basing the laws on their own religious standards
9. Corporate Power is Protected - Some limitations, but corporations have the upper hand.
10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Labor unions have some power in certain sectors, there are some pro-labor laws such as minimum wage etc. These are limited though
11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - No disdain, but arts are horribly under funded. Intellectualism is not overtly encouraged unless it is the type that fetches a tidy salary
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Varies a lot by state. Federal government not generally involved with most crimes. Obsessed with counter-terrorism though.
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Can anyone say Halliburton? It's not as bad as some places, but it ain't great.
14. Fraudulent Elections - Minimal claims of voter fraud. Open efforts to prevent this.

I wouldn't call the US the model democracy, but it's no Cuba. I wonder if someone else would have some comment on my assessment. I'm no expert in some of these areas.

ik911 · Post by **ik911** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 6:29 am

But having those fourteen points doesn't exactly make it a fascist nation...

Supremacy of the Military - We aren't run by military generals, but it is very important <-- Half of the enormous budget goes to the USA. That's just scary...
Fraudulent elections. - Besides Bush having won by cheating in his first term, elections are manipulated by smear campaigns and the media is manipulated.
Well, I'm not sure about smear campaigns, but as seen in the other thread, FOX is manipulating it's viewers. Besides, and that I find the worst, presidents get votes for being pretty cool... Not for what they think (or even do...) .

CM · Post by CM » Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:06 am

My part of this conversation is over.

ik911 · Post by **ik911** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 10:47 am

[QUOTE=CM]My part of this conversation is over.[/QUOTE]
What, is it getting too serious?

CM · Post by CM » Sat Feb 12, 2005 10:51 am

No its rather you aren't being serious. You flip flop to suit your needs even if you contradict yourself.

ik911 · Post by **ik911** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 10:53 am

No, I'm saying that the USA isn't a fascist nation, even though it has all the 14 defining characteristics.

jopperm2 · Post by **jopperm2** » Mon Feb 14, 2005 11:24 am

The voting on behalf of "cool" candidates does not denote illegitimate elections, if the people want to be run by mickey mouse then so be it. What it is referring to is all-out fraud where ballots have been tampered with etc.

Also, I haven't seen any proof that there was fraud in the 2000 election. I'm sure it has been covered here before though. I would appreciate it if you could sustantiate those allegations.

On the military thing, you're right, we do spend an awful lot on it. I don't think that qualifies under the 14 though. I would place it under numbers 1, 3, and 7.

ik911 · Post by **ik911** » Mon Feb 14, 2005 4:07 pm

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

disproportionate amount of government funding certainly fits, and domestic agenda (there's lots to be fixed, like the 'projects' and poverty that's just neglected as unimportant.) too.

However, apaches, b2's, stealth fighters, abrams and especially the 'brave' soldiers are praised for their supremacy in battle.

So it definitely fits into #4.

But I still wouldn't call America a fascist country. My guess is, the list is not exclusive enough.

jopperm2 · Post by **jopperm2** » Mon Feb 14, 2005 4:42 pm

Oops, I guess it would fit under there.. (I only read CE's post, not the original, don't tell, k?)

ik911 · Post by **ik911** » Tue Feb 15, 2005 4:04 am

[QUOTE=jopperm2](I only read CE's post, not the original, don't tell, k?)[/QUOTE]k, I won't tell