[QUOTE=Mah]One time in a cramped mini van, I offered my jacket straight off to the lady right in front of me. Without even telling her right away, I gently put my jacket on top of her lap, aptly covering that space between her legs and skirt. I politely told her that she would need it for a while.
I got a nice smile and a thank you. [/QUOTE]
I've had to do things like that with some of my friends. A lot of them don't dress in skirts or dresses often, so when they do, they tend to forget how to sit in them and I have to remind them what it is they're showing off. Take into account many of them are of the "I want to feel 'free'" mindset, often they aren't wearing anything beneath their skirt and blouse either so that's made them QUITE appreciative of my discreet whispers.
Young girls and revealing clothes
-
Fiona
@Chimaera 182
The trouble with a lot of the discussion about this topic is that guesses are made without evidence. It muddies the waters and that's why I asked for evidence. I am grateful that you took the trouble to put up those links.As you will know from reading them, most point out that the effects of rape are the same for men and women. That is for the individual. At least one of the links also points out that the existence of rape puts constraints on how women behave directly and generally, precisely because society is very aware of it as a problem. Men are not constrained, because few think about the problem regularly, unless and until it touches their lives. I do not deny that men are vulnerable but I am saying that their lives are not affected in the same way. You might think it would be better if men were more aware and more frightened, as women are. I don't like the idea of levelling down.
You do say it is because of biology. One of the very early posts in this thread referred to the fact that we have brains and we can make choices in ways that animals do not.This was reiterated by Magrus and others. As I said, we are not talking about "looking" in the reflexive way Magrus described. Although he described one situation where a woman over-reacted to her own misunderstanding of what was going on, that is not very usual and it was a mistake. The issue is indeed "what happens next", as someone else has already said.
You said you have not suggested the situations are comparable, but a great deal of what you write does tend to imply that. Indeed the argument that men are as vulnerable as women seems to do so clearly, and this is a big part of your thesis, is it not ? This is bandwagon stuff. Magrus reported an instance of a man raped at a party, by a woman, while he was drunk. You also referred to that I think. With all due respect I do not think that is rape; I think it is an urban myth. Men are raped by men, just as women are. Maybe the other thing does happen but it is vanishingly rare. Focussing on this kind of "equality" is just another evasion tactic, imo.
You also point out that male rape is not recognised at all in many cultures and you are right.That is discriminatory. I believe it reflects the history of women as possessions. Raping a woman was recognised as serious because it was damaging another man's property. It could also lead to pregnancy so that a man could end up having to support another man's child. This discrimination is due to the values of men underpinnng the law. Before you ask, I do not mean all men, or that "genarally" means "always". However it is a distraction to focus on what can happen on rare occasions when the big problem is perfectly obvious and quite pervasive.
@Magrus.
You didn't understand what I was saying because I did not expess it very well. It is better explained in the first of Chimaera 182,s links. What I mean is that women are limited by the threat of rape. The fear of rape and male violence is very widespread and it causes women to limit their actions to keep themselves safe. All men benefit from this because it reduces competition in all sorts of subtle ways. For example, if women are not free to go where men go on the same terms, they miss a lot of the informal contact which in many fields lead to job opportunities. That is a minor example. The more pervasive lack of confidence and focus which follows from the need to keep safe is a handicap. The status quo gives men an advantage, even when they don't support it. I hope that is a bit clearer.
The trouble with a lot of the discussion about this topic is that guesses are made without evidence. It muddies the waters and that's why I asked for evidence. I am grateful that you took the trouble to put up those links.As you will know from reading them, most point out that the effects of rape are the same for men and women. That is for the individual. At least one of the links also points out that the existence of rape puts constraints on how women behave directly and generally, precisely because society is very aware of it as a problem. Men are not constrained, because few think about the problem regularly, unless and until it touches their lives. I do not deny that men are vulnerable but I am saying that their lives are not affected in the same way. You might think it would be better if men were more aware and more frightened, as women are. I don't like the idea of levelling down.
You do say it is because of biology. One of the very early posts in this thread referred to the fact that we have brains and we can make choices in ways that animals do not.This was reiterated by Magrus and others. As I said, we are not talking about "looking" in the reflexive way Magrus described. Although he described one situation where a woman over-reacted to her own misunderstanding of what was going on, that is not very usual and it was a mistake. The issue is indeed "what happens next", as someone else has already said.
You said you have not suggested the situations are comparable, but a great deal of what you write does tend to imply that. Indeed the argument that men are as vulnerable as women seems to do so clearly, and this is a big part of your thesis, is it not ? This is bandwagon stuff. Magrus reported an instance of a man raped at a party, by a woman, while he was drunk. You also referred to that I think. With all due respect I do not think that is rape; I think it is an urban myth. Men are raped by men, just as women are. Maybe the other thing does happen but it is vanishingly rare. Focussing on this kind of "equality" is just another evasion tactic, imo.
You also point out that male rape is not recognised at all in many cultures and you are right.That is discriminatory. I believe it reflects the history of women as possessions. Raping a woman was recognised as serious because it was damaging another man's property. It could also lead to pregnancy so that a man could end up having to support another man's child. This discrimination is due to the values of men underpinnng the law. Before you ask, I do not mean all men, or that "genarally" means "always". However it is a distraction to focus on what can happen on rare occasions when the big problem is perfectly obvious and quite pervasive.
@Magrus.
You didn't understand what I was saying because I did not expess it very well. It is better explained in the first of Chimaera 182,s links. What I mean is that women are limited by the threat of rape. The fear of rape and male violence is very widespread and it causes women to limit their actions to keep themselves safe. All men benefit from this because it reduces competition in all sorts of subtle ways. For example, if women are not free to go where men go on the same terms, they miss a lot of the informal contact which in many fields lead to job opportunities. That is a minor example. The more pervasive lack of confidence and focus which follows from the need to keep safe is a handicap. The status quo gives men an advantage, even when they don't support it. I hope that is a bit clearer.
@Fiona, that makes sense now. However, you're failing to see things from the opposite side. I know I've been turned down from jobs for the simple reasoning, and excuse me if this sounds crude, that I don't have a "nice rack". For the exact reason's you've expressed that females have reason to worry, be afraid, etc, they get special treatment as well. Whether it's wanted, asked for, or right doesn't come into play. This isn't a fair trade off, it isn't right, and it isn't how it should be either.
No one should have to fear bodily, or emotional harm, ever. However, many, many women know that they can use their bodies to gain power over men, and quite a number of those relish doing so from my experience as well. I don't mean to say that it should be this way, or is "good" this way, it simply is. A lot of men give into their urges, and it can be used to benefit females as well as harm them.
No one should have to fear bodily, or emotional harm, ever. However, many, many women know that they can use their bodies to gain power over men, and quite a number of those relish doing so from my experience as well. I don't mean to say that it should be this way, or is "good" this way, it simply is. A lot of men give into their urges, and it can be used to benefit females as well as harm them.
"You can do whatever you want to me."
"Oh, so I can crate you and hide you in the warehouse at the end of Raiders?"
"So funny, kiss me funny boy!" / *Sprays mace* " I know, I know, bad for the ozone"
"Oh, so I can crate you and hide you in the warehouse at the end of Raiders?"
"So funny, kiss me funny boy!" / *Sprays mace* " I know, I know, bad for the ozone"
-
Fiona
If it is not indelicate to ask. what is a "rack"?Magrus wrote: I know I've been turned down from jobs for the simple reasoning, and excuse me if this sounds crude, that I don't have a "nice rack".
snip
It isn't quite power in the same sense, since it is not an imposition. Power implies making someone do something they don't want to do. From the outside you might see a man acting against his own interest because he is trying to please a woman. You may believe she is manipulating him, and you might be right. Does he agree when you ask him if that is what is going on?No one should have to fear bodily, or emotional harm, ever. However, many, many women know that they can use their bodies to gain power over men, and quite a number of those relish doing so from my experience as well. I don't mean to say that it should be this way, or is "good" this way, it simply is. A lot of men give into their urges, and it can be used to benefit females as well as harm them.
[QUOTE=Fiona] Power implies making someone do something they don't want to do. [/QUOTE]
I do not agree: think Hitler and the greater part of the German population in the 1930's. Sometimes power is manipulating someone in doing something he wants to do, but shouldn't. And sometimes it's convincing someone of wanting something that isn't good for him/her. But those are the bad uses of power.
You seem to see power as a necessarily bad or evil thing. It ain't. As with many things it is all in intention and actual use.
I do not agree: think Hitler and the greater part of the German population in the 1930's. Sometimes power is manipulating someone in doing something he wants to do, but shouldn't. And sometimes it's convincing someone of wanting something that isn't good for him/her. But those are the bad uses of power.
You seem to see power as a necessarily bad or evil thing. It ain't. As with many things it is all in intention and actual use.
I think that God in creating man somewhat overestimated his ability.
- Oscar Wilde
The church is near but the road is icy; the bar is far away but I'll walk carefully.
- Russian proverb
- Oscar Wilde
The church is near but the road is icy; the bar is far away but I'll walk carefully.
- Russian proverb
-
Chimaera182
- Posts: 2723
- Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 11:00 am
- Contact:
[QUOTE=Fiona]@Chimaera 182
You said you have not suggested the situations are comparable, but a great deal of what you write does tend to imply that. Indeed the argument that men are as vulnerable as women seems to do so clearly, and this is a big part of your thesis, is it not ?[/QUOTE]
I probably should've emphasized. It's 7:45 in the morning here now, and my memory's rather fuzzy on this whole thread, but I didn't mean to imply that the "whole" of the conversation between men and women was easily comparable; just maybe certain aspects can be compaired. However, several situations we brought up are not comparable (and since my memory's too fuzzy to recall most of this discussion, I can't sort them out at this time). When it came to rape, both male and female, statistically, females are raped more, but males are just as vulnerable. The number of women raped compared to men is not comparable, just the fact that men can be just as vulnerable. The results of such victimization are comparable, though; it's just that in a society where men are supposed to be strong and incapable of suffering such an act, when it happens to them, they may think it's more traumatizing to them; it doesn't mean it is. I hope this kinda clears up what I meant.
[QUOTE=Fiona]If it is not indelicate to ask. what is a "rack"?[/QUOTE]
Rack, in American slang--I'm not sure if it's the same in Britain, although I thought it was; I watch British comedies and thought I remembered them use the expression before--refers to a woman's breasts. And in that instance, it's also sexual discrimination. Magrus was turned down from a job merely because he wasn't a woman; well, not just a woman, but a woman with big boobs. But in that instance, it still displays the sort of "status quo" Fiona refers to with how the world works with men in charge. In this instance, if a woman with a perfectly normal "rack" were to apply for the job with that specific person wearing a low-cut outfit so he could take a gander at her knockers, she would get the job. I know some women object to that kind of objectification; I also know there are smart women out there who would use such a situation to their advantage, demeaning though it may be to them.
[QUOTE=Fiona]You may believe she is manipulating him, and you might be right. Does he agree when you ask him if that is what is going on?[/QUOTE]
A man admit to a moment of weakness? That he was manipulated by a woman in such a way that he gave preferential treatment to a woman just because she was willing to show a little leg, or cleavage, as is usually the standard nowadays? He would rarely ever admit to such a thing, especially if such became public knowledge; if his company was sued for improper hiring standards, he would very likely deny any such impropriety. So he would never agree to such a thing; he feels he has the power, after all, he hired her, she didn't use her power to get the job.
[QUOTE=Lestat]I do not agree: think Hitler and the greater part of the German population in the 1930's. Sometimes power is manipulating someone in doing something he wants to do, but shouldn't. And sometimes it's convincing someone of wanting something that isn't good for him/her. But those are the bad uses of power.[/QUOTE]
Hitler was a great orator and used rhetoric to get what he wanted/needed. He seduced the people to believe in his dream of a greater Germany. Such seduction is probably more like the instance of a woman showing some skin to get a job, since it is appealing to another's wants to get what the seducer needs. Hitler says he will make Germany great again, and the Germans give him power; a woman shows up to a job interview in a lowcut blouse, and the male boss gives her a job. Both instances are a case of manipulation; however, sometimes a woman may not actually be consciously aware that she is exploiting such an advantage. A woman may just go to a job interview in something she thinks looks good and will endear her to who's hiring her, not thinking it might be a man who wants to stare at her body every day. So she may not actually be aware that that's what the boss hired her for, so I don't know if such a case is her use of power. Power is generally used in such instances consciously, at least on the part of the wielder.
You said you have not suggested the situations are comparable, but a great deal of what you write does tend to imply that. Indeed the argument that men are as vulnerable as women seems to do so clearly, and this is a big part of your thesis, is it not ?[/QUOTE]
I probably should've emphasized. It's 7:45 in the morning here now, and my memory's rather fuzzy on this whole thread, but I didn't mean to imply that the "whole" of the conversation between men and women was easily comparable; just maybe certain aspects can be compaired. However, several situations we brought up are not comparable (and since my memory's too fuzzy to recall most of this discussion, I can't sort them out at this time). When it came to rape, both male and female, statistically, females are raped more, but males are just as vulnerable. The number of women raped compared to men is not comparable, just the fact that men can be just as vulnerable. The results of such victimization are comparable, though; it's just that in a society where men are supposed to be strong and incapable of suffering such an act, when it happens to them, they may think it's more traumatizing to them; it doesn't mean it is. I hope this kinda clears up what I meant.
[QUOTE=Fiona]If it is not indelicate to ask. what is a "rack"?[/QUOTE]
Rack, in American slang--I'm not sure if it's the same in Britain, although I thought it was; I watch British comedies and thought I remembered them use the expression before--refers to a woman's breasts. And in that instance, it's also sexual discrimination. Magrus was turned down from a job merely because he wasn't a woman; well, not just a woman, but a woman with big boobs. But in that instance, it still displays the sort of "status quo" Fiona refers to with how the world works with men in charge. In this instance, if a woman with a perfectly normal "rack" were to apply for the job with that specific person wearing a low-cut outfit so he could take a gander at her knockers, she would get the job. I know some women object to that kind of objectification; I also know there are smart women out there who would use such a situation to their advantage, demeaning though it may be to them.
[QUOTE=Fiona]You may believe she is manipulating him, and you might be right. Does he agree when you ask him if that is what is going on?[/QUOTE]
A man admit to a moment of weakness? That he was manipulated by a woman in such a way that he gave preferential treatment to a woman just because she was willing to show a little leg, or cleavage, as is usually the standard nowadays? He would rarely ever admit to such a thing, especially if such became public knowledge; if his company was sued for improper hiring standards, he would very likely deny any such impropriety. So he would never agree to such a thing; he feels he has the power, after all, he hired her, she didn't use her power to get the job.
[QUOTE=Lestat]I do not agree: think Hitler and the greater part of the German population in the 1930's. Sometimes power is manipulating someone in doing something he wants to do, but shouldn't. And sometimes it's convincing someone of wanting something that isn't good for him/her. But those are the bad uses of power.[/QUOTE]
Hitler was a great orator and used rhetoric to get what he wanted/needed. He seduced the people to believe in his dream of a greater Germany. Such seduction is probably more like the instance of a woman showing some skin to get a job, since it is appealing to another's wants to get what the seducer needs. Hitler says he will make Germany great again, and the Germans give him power; a woman shows up to a job interview in a lowcut blouse, and the male boss gives her a job. Both instances are a case of manipulation; however, sometimes a woman may not actually be consciously aware that she is exploiting such an advantage. A woman may just go to a job interview in something she thinks looks good and will endear her to who's hiring her, not thinking it might be a man who wants to stare at her body every day. So she may not actually be aware that that's what the boss hired her for, so I don't know if such a case is her use of power. Power is generally used in such instances consciously, at least on the part of the wielder.
General: "Those aren't ideas; those are special effects."
Michael Bay: "I don't understand the difference."
Michael Bay: "I don't understand the difference."
-
Fiona
@Lestat. I don't quite agree, though I see what you mean. These discussions are bedevilled by the different meanings which attach to the same words, and this can obscure a lot. I was referring to power as "possession of control or command over others; dominion;government,sway; authority over". The dictionary also gives other definitions, in line with your point. For the purposes of this discussion I think the concept has to include the idea of imposing behaviour because of the existence of some kind of threat or sanction. If there is no penalty for non-compliance then we are looking at ideas such as charisma or force of character. These things are real, but they're not scary in the same way. In short they are not as powerful. In this thread several people have said that revealing clothing puts women into dangerous positions. That entails the existence of power as I am using it,I think. Do you disagree with that (however badly expressed)
@Chimaera 182. You beat me to this and I think you said it better. Sorry for the overlap
@Chimaera 182. You beat me to this and I think you said it better. Sorry for the overlap
[QUOTE=Chimaera182]Hitler was a great orator and used rhetoric to get what he wanted/needed. He seduced the people to believe in his dream of a greater Germany. Such seduction is probably more like the instance of a woman showing some skin to get a job, since it is appealing to another's wants to get what the seducer needs. Hitler says he will make Germany great again, and the Germans give him power; a woman shows up to a job interview in a lowcut blouse, and the male boss gives her a job. Both instances are a case of manipulation; however, sometimes a woman may not actually be consciously aware that she is exploiting such an advantage. A woman may just go to a job interview in something she thinks looks good and will endear her to who's hiring her, not thinking it might be a man who wants to stare at her body every day. So she may not actually be aware that that's what the boss hired her for, so I don't know if such a case is her use of power. Power is generally used in such instances consciously, at least on the part of the wielder.[/QUOTE]
Yes, of course. But what I objected to is the implication in Fiona's original phrasing that:
a. Use of power implies getting people to do something they don't want to do.
b. And thus use of power being something uniquely negative.
The referral to Hitler is maybe a bit inappropriate within the thread, but it was one that came to mind first.
Yes, of course. But what I objected to is the implication in Fiona's original phrasing that:
a. Use of power implies getting people to do something they don't want to do.
b. And thus use of power being something uniquely negative.
The referral to Hitler is maybe a bit inappropriate within the thread, but it was one that came to mind first.
I think that God in creating man somewhat overestimated his ability.
- Oscar Wilde
The church is near but the road is icy; the bar is far away but I'll walk carefully.
- Russian proverb
- Oscar Wilde
The church is near but the road is icy; the bar is far away but I'll walk carefully.
- Russian proverb
[QUOTE=Fiona]@Lestat. I don't quite agree, though I see what you mean. These discussions are bedevilled by the different meanings which attach to the same words, and this can obscure a lot. I was referring to power as "possession of control or command over others; dominion;government,sway; authority over". The dictionary also gives other definitions, in line with your point. For the purposes of this discussion I think the concept has to include the idea of imposing behaviour because of the existence of some kind of threat or sanction. If there is no penalty for non-compliance then we are looking at ideas such as charisma or force of character. These things are real, but they're not scary in the same way. In short they are not as powerful. In this thread several people have said that revealing clothing puts women into dangerous positions. That entails the existence of power as I am using it,I think. Do you disagree with that (however badly expressed)
[/QUOTE]
OK, I'm going to go off topic again, just to clarify why I (still) disagree with your original implication that power = having people do things against their will:
Taking your definition of power, consider the following:
- Police stopping you from driving while drunk (for an example of 'good' use of power)
- Gang leader who threatens squeamish gang member into participating in a gang bang (something the gang member might want to but feels is wrong).
- Warlord giving militia members the order to loot and kill a village of rivalling ethnic group (rather like giving a licence to do what they might want to do)
And I disagree with you that the 'hard power' (authority backed by force) you seem to referring is less scary than the 'soft power' (seduction, force of personality, the power of ideas, etc.). Sometimes, because it is so insiduous, 'soft power' is IMO scarier because it makes people want to do evil things, or at least make them acceptable, rather than force them to do them. Again the following example is completely of topic: before the start of the genocide in Rwanda Radio Mille Collines continuously referred to Tutsis as "c0ckroaches" and "vermin", dehumanising them and preparing people mentally for the extermination of such vermin (if they're vermin it becomes acceptable to exterminate them).
Back to topic: In the same way the soft power of ideas such as spread by media about man-woman relations can have a very insiduous effect, encouraging men to think such things as "no = playing hard to get" & "short skirt = woman wants sex".
[/QUOTE]
OK, I'm going to go off topic again, just to clarify why I (still) disagree with your original implication that power = having people do things against their will:
Taking your definition of power, consider the following:
- Police stopping you from driving while drunk (for an example of 'good' use of power)
- Gang leader who threatens squeamish gang member into participating in a gang bang (something the gang member might want to but feels is wrong).
- Warlord giving militia members the order to loot and kill a village of rivalling ethnic group (rather like giving a licence to do what they might want to do)
And I disagree with you that the 'hard power' (authority backed by force) you seem to referring is less scary than the 'soft power' (seduction, force of personality, the power of ideas, etc.). Sometimes, because it is so insiduous, 'soft power' is IMO scarier because it makes people want to do evil things, or at least make them acceptable, rather than force them to do them. Again the following example is completely of topic: before the start of the genocide in Rwanda Radio Mille Collines continuously referred to Tutsis as "c0ckroaches" and "vermin", dehumanising them and preparing people mentally for the extermination of such vermin (if they're vermin it becomes acceptable to exterminate them).
Back to topic: In the same way the soft power of ideas such as spread by media about man-woman relations can have a very insiduous effect, encouraging men to think such things as "no = playing hard to get" & "short skirt = woman wants sex".
I think that God in creating man somewhat overestimated his ability.
- Oscar Wilde
The church is near but the road is icy; the bar is far away but I'll walk carefully.
- Russian proverb
- Oscar Wilde
The church is near but the road is icy; the bar is far away but I'll walk carefully.
- Russian proverb
My personal view on the matter is that if a female dresses in provocative clothing e.g. skin tight clothing or what not (you may not find that provocative and that's your oppinion) and is trying her best to get the attention of 1 person and 1 person alone whilst making a show of herself then naturally everybody is going to stare ok maybe not for long but still if she is prepared to try to get the attention of 1 person then she should accept the possible outcome or consequences i also point out that not all females do this but it is on the rise.
oxxx]:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
I am the weapon, my strength is merely an ally
I am the weapon, my strength is merely an ally
-
Fiona
@ Lestat
The intention doesn't seem to matter in any of these cases. Each is backed up by the threat of some kind of sanction if the individual does not comply.-Police stopping you from driving while drunk (for an example of 'good' use of power)
- Gang leader who threatens squeamish gang member into participating in a gang bang (something the gang member might want to but feels is wrong).
- Warlord giving militia members the order to loot and kill a village of rivalling ethnic group (rather like giving a licence to do what they might want to do)
You seldom see one without the other. Most powerful people prefer not to have to make the threat good, where possible. It's a waste of resources. However people vary, and in any group where a "soft power" is deployed to make people want to do evil things there will be dissenters. The sanction reduces the numbers. Once the majority have done what is asked (whether willingly or not) they are less tolerant of those who point out it is wrong. The threats grow and become more diffuse. The on-topic part of your post is important. I think a lot of men prefer not to recognise the threats which underpin the behaviour we are talking about and would prefer it to be in the nature of charisma or force of personality etc. Those things exist in this context but they are supported by physical threat. That's why even those who are on the other side of this debate started out saying it is dangerous for women to dress in revealing clothes. I remains my view that soft authority is not authority until it has force behind it.And I disagree with you that the 'hard power' (authority backed by force) you seem to referring is less scary than the 'soft power' (seduction, force of personality, the power of ideas, etc.). Sometimes, because it is so insiduous, 'soft power' is IMO scarier because it makes people want to do evil things, or at least make them acceptable, rather than force them to do them.
Fiona wrote:If it is not indelicate to ask. what is a "rack"?
Breasts. I had an uncle of mine tell me straight out, that while he'd love to hire me, since I wasn't a cute female, I'd be bad for business. Many small businesses make a lot of the pull they have with competitors based on who is working there. You may not realize it, or notice it, but it is there. I worked for my other uncle at a grocery store and you know, all of the cute girls were up front were everyone gathered. I asked him why that was, and he said it was just good business logic.
You may believe she is manipulating him, and you might be right. Does he agree when you ask him if that is what is going on?
As for the last two sentences there, I've developed a complete lack of faith in the mental abilities of most males. Some do, and find it to be a sort of "chase", some do and ignore the whole thing. Most, just don't realize what exactly is going on and take how things are as how they "should be" I do believe. Either way, "Power" in my view is anything you are capable of doing to gain. Doesn't matter what you do, or what you gain, or why. It's simply "I can do X to get Y and therefore have more power over Z person because of it."
"You can do whatever you want to me."
"Oh, so I can crate you and hide you in the warehouse at the end of Raiders?"
"So funny, kiss me funny boy!" / *Sprays mace* " I know, I know, bad for the ozone"
"Oh, so I can crate you and hide you in the warehouse at the end of Raiders?"
"So funny, kiss me funny boy!" / *Sprays mace* " I know, I know, bad for the ozone"
not to be argumentative magrus i'm just making a point but in that case you are plain and simply sexist you consider males easy pickings thinking you can seduce them easily but it is not the case with all males (this may not be what you implied it's mereley how i interpreted your post)
oxxx]:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
I am the weapon, my strength is merely an ally
I am the weapon, my strength is merely an ally
[QUOTE=Krystian]My personal view on the matter is that if a female dresses in provocative clothing e.g. skin tight clothing or what not (you may not find that provocative and that's your oppinion) and is trying her best to get the attention of 1 person and 1 person alone whilst making a show of herself then naturally everybody is going to stare ok maybe not for long but still if she is prepared to try to get the attention of 1 person then she should accept the possible outcome or consequences i also point out that not all females do this but it is on the rise.[/QUOTE]
Yes, girls should realize that they will attract attention (the unwanted kind as well as the kind they enjoy) if they wear revealing clothing, just like they should expect to get ant bites if they stick their hands in an ant mound, since ants behave like ants. I don't think anyone would disagree with the basic premise of that argument, but different people might put a different spin on it. My take on it should be pretty clear.
But what about a more difficult question? Men also stare at women who don't dress provocatively. In that case, you can't put any of the responsibility on the women. Is that something that women should just "accept"?
Yes, girls should realize that they will attract attention (the unwanted kind as well as the kind they enjoy) if they wear revealing clothing, just like they should expect to get ant bites if they stick their hands in an ant mound, since ants behave like ants. I don't think anyone would disagree with the basic premise of that argument, but different people might put a different spin on it. My take on it should be pretty clear.
But what about a more difficult question? Men also stare at women who don't dress provocatively. In that case, you can't put any of the responsibility on the women. Is that something that women should just "accept"?
no i totally agree with you on that and it is wrong..
men shouldn't violate a womens privacy if she doesn't want any attention at all.
but like wise women do the same but i believe that men don't flip out as much as women (i'm not being sexist towards women there) or at least i don't hear or see it as much as i do for the women...
men shouldn't violate a womens privacy if she doesn't want any attention at all.
but like wise women do the same but i believe that men don't flip out as much as women (i'm not being sexist towards women there) or at least i don't hear or see it as much as i do for the women...
oxxx]:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
I am the weapon, my strength is merely an ally
I am the weapon, my strength is merely an ally
-
Grimar
- Posts: 2011
- Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 2:03 pm
- Location: Norwegian stationed in the philippines
- Contact:
for your last Q von, that is just the nature of some men... and they are responsible for it themself!
I once had a little teaparty, this afternoon at three, twas was very small, three guests in all; I, myself, and me. myself ate up the sandwhiches, while i drank up the tea. twas also i that ate the pie,and passed the cake to me
[QUOTE=Krystian]not to be argumentative magrus i'm just making a point but in that case you are plain and simply sexist you consider males easy pickings thinking you can seduce them easily but it is not the case with all males (this may not be what you implied it's mereley how i interpreted your post)[/QUOTE]
*laughs* I'm not sexist, I just don't respect most people in general based on personal experience. Besides, I've no clue why I'd ever want to seduce a male, that would make me gay and I'd definately prefer sticking to making females squirm instead thanks.
*laughs* I'm not sexist, I just don't respect most people in general based on personal experience. Besides, I've no clue why I'd ever want to seduce a male, that would make me gay and I'd definately prefer sticking to making females squirm instead thanks.
"You can do whatever you want to me."
"Oh, so I can crate you and hide you in the warehouse at the end of Raiders?"
"So funny, kiss me funny boy!" / *Sprays mace* " I know, I know, bad for the ozone"
"Oh, so I can crate you and hide you in the warehouse at the end of Raiders?"
"So funny, kiss me funny boy!" / *Sprays mace* " I know, I know, bad for the ozone"