Baldur’s Gate and D & D Are Truly Evil

Phil · Post by **Phil** » Wed Jan 24, 2001 12:37 pm

Originally posted by Buck Satan:
Very interesting, a thread about religion and AD&D... an ongoing debate for many, many years. This could very easily get out of hand, so please watch what you say to each other =)

A few quick notes.

Firstly, there's actually quite a few interesting websites about this debate. Bad news, can't remember any links.

Secondly, statistically, the suicide rate amongst roleplayers is lower than the national average in the US. Roleplaying actually makes you *more* stable. It's all those orgies and spells of immortality I guess - who'd want to give that up

Thirdly, I actually met my first roleplayers through Sunday School! I was a good little boy, when I was young

Phil, son of Hastur, SAN 15 and falling

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Wed Jan 24, 2001 12:39 pm

@Drakron .. think... ' I would break my game before I reload it' that should jarr your memory.

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The Defender of Truth

Jhareth of house Noquar · Wed Jan 24, 2001 12:39 pm

Great post hermetic!
Damn Straight I'm a heathen!!!
You can take your Original Sin and shove it up your )*@#^%)*@^#%)*&^!!!

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Lil alurl velve zhah lil velkyn uss...
<^><^><^><^><^><^><^><^>
Your friendly neighborhood
Drow in Sunglasses,
Jhareth of house Noquar

Drakron Du´Dark · Post by **Drakron Du´Dark** » Wed Jan 24, 2001 12:51 pm

Yes...........Now I remember, The Reroll...well I belive that he was MIA.

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"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not became a monster... when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss gazes into you..."
Friedrich Nietzsche

Phil · Post by **Phil** » Wed Jan 24, 2001 12:53 pm

Originally posted by Gruntboy:
Piracy? That's your value system. The crusades were about the crusaders value systems - booty and largesse.

Ooh, now we're talking. Did I ever mention my MA in Mediaeval History?

Dangerous generalisations, people. The early crusades were about, say, six things.

1. Religious Fervour - Jerusalem was in the hands of the Moslems. Sure it had been for a while, but rile up those knights and they do, when it comes down to it like a good fight. Don't under estimate this element. Peter the Hermit got thousands of people worked up for the Peoples Crusade. Of course, the First Crusade met the remnants of that wandering across Anatolia - most of them had been killed. Suspiciously, Peter the Hermit wasnt amongst them.
Also, don't forget that many great nobles were drawn to Crusade by the offer of Plenary Indulgences, basically a forgiveness from the Pope for previous sins. Very useful if you're prone to a bit of medieval excess, but have the medieval belief in a Dantean Inferno.
2. Booty - With any fight comes loot. Knights need loot to survive. Horses don't come cheap!
3. Awe - The Westerners were approached by the Byzantine Empire for help. This was the remnants of the Roman Empire. 500 yrs on they still held it in a degree of awe.
4. Trade - More a factor in the later crusades, with the Italian City States encouraging this kind of activity for the sake of their profits.
5. Land - This was the key factor influencing the leaders of the First Crusade, without which the later ones wouldn't have happened. Great knights like Baldwin Le Bourg, Tancred de Hautville and his uncle (and de facto leader of the crusade) Bohemond wanted their own fiefdoms. Bohemonds family had been trying this in Sicily and against the Byzantine Empire for some years. Out in the middle east (Outremer) was lots of land with only 'heathen' owners. Go in, grab it and hey-presto!, you're a landowner.
6. Honour - What more reason does a valiant knight need, especially seeing as the golden age of Romantic Chivalry was fast approaching.

After the first crusade, Bohemond became Prince of Antioch and Baldwin le Bourg became King of Jerusalem. Now *that's* motivation.

Phil the History-geek

Phil · Post by **Phil** » Wed Jan 24, 2001 12:56 pm

Originally posted by Drakron Du´Dark:
Phil? that name rings a bell......
And its AD&D 2 edition, 3rd edition rules in a RPG game will be Neverwinter Nights our Pool of Radiance, Ruins of Myth Drannor.
BG II uses AD&D 2 edition rules.

Ah, well if it's BG2 we're talking about, then I humbly stand (er, sit) corrected

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:00 pm

Yes Drakron ...bingo bingo... like I said sad sad indeed. Some cannot be helped.

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The Defender of Truth

[This message has been edited by Weasel (edited 01-24-2001).]

Drakron Du´Dark · Post by **Drakron Du´Dark** » Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:03 pm

Phil were you in the crusades?
I like to say Thanks to the Crusades veterans that are still alive since they help to get the City were I live(Lisbon) from the moures.If were not for They I would have to speak arab.

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"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not became a monster... when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss gazes into you..."
Friedrich Nietzsche

hermetic · Post by **hermetic** » Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:18 pm

Hey Phil, I'm currently applying for the MA in Medieval Studies at U of Toronto. That where you went? Or are you a Cornell boy? Catholic University? Anyhoo I gotta agree wholeheartedly with you on land being a major cause for the crusades. Godfroi de Bouillion was hardly on a religious crusade. What he and his "followers" (10 of them, wasnt it?) wanted was to put their foot and flag in Jersalem. They didn't want to spread the good word. Islamic theology makes Christian theology look like tripe anyway. Heh. And yes, Drakron, the Iberian peninsula was the western front of the crusades.

Hmmm...this doesn't have much to do with BG2 and its sinister themes. You guys ever think about the attitude Keldorn has towards Viconia? True, she kinda bashes Keldorn's religion, but she's right about every word of it. Keldorn, who supposedly is Lawful Good, ends up attacking her, totally uncalled for. Consarn it, let's go even further back in the story, from whom do we rescue Viconia? A mob! And what is Keldorn's class? An INQUISITOR! Am I onto something?

Doltan · Post by **Doltan** » Wed Jan 24, 2001 2:04 pm

Let me wipe off that MA is Interpreting British Spellings. How can you Brits survive with all of those extra letters (mediaeval, favour, honour)? My fingers get tired just typing all of the a's and u's.

So, what's so dangeOUrous about generaliSing about the crusades? Surely, the Catholic church can't still worry about such things?

bullions27 · Post by **bullions27** » Wed Jan 24, 2001 2:45 pm

You'll have to read the history of the Masquerade from White Wolf for an explanation . The Inquisition sought out corrupted souls with evil (vampires) and burn them at the stake. Hence, certain Paladins becoming Inquisitors to root out undead and destroy them. Their reasons for their actions, undead souls are irreversible.

hermetic · Post by **hermetic** » Wed Jan 24, 2001 3:40 pm

I'm sorry Doltan, I'm not following. Who was generaliZing about the crusades? I was merely commenting on Phil's excellent take on the crusades. And I don't think the church had much to do with it, really, at least on a theological level. The powers-that-were back then knew full well what they were getting involved in against the Saracens and the reasons, as Phil pointed out, were all practical. Just like George W's future strikes on Iraq, they'll be for practical reasons. HEH

Back to BG2: I don't know if I explained myself well enough. I'm looking for some input on my theory that there are many symbolic elements to the game's story. Viconia, on the verge of being burnt at the stake, is like a witch. In fact, Keldorn calls her as much literally. Keldorn's paladin kit, in turn, is named after the very type of person who enacted such acts against witches and Jews and other heathens in the middle ages, he's an inquisitor. What does he do? He ends up attacking Viconia if she doesn't leave the party within a day of Keldorn's word. I understand that there is a direct parallel with Korgan (chaotic evil) ultimately attacking Aerie (lawful good), but I still think there's something to be said for the clever plot twists of BG2. Little tidbits of this sort are brilliantly allegorical. That's why BG2 is so good...and Luciferian.

bullions27 · Post by **bullions27** » Wed Jan 24, 2001 3:53 pm

Oh I agree. BG 2's themes are centered around in some form or fashion religious and spiritual views. Take for example the Trials in the end, reminds me of Ghandi.

Avariel · Post by **Avariel** » Wed Jan 24, 2001 8:33 pm

Besides being a great way to make friends, have fun, and escape the problems of life for a few hours, RPGs also develop problem-solving skills, and the ability to look at a situation in more than one way.

Something that I'm sure certain holier-than-thou "religious" people, seeing as they like to look at things only ONE way, would have a problem with.

I'm too tired to actually type my entire point of view on this argument, and you're lucky, since it would use up about three pages of the forum.

But, think on this, Anti-RPG Bible Thumping People, my local DM has been playing and running his campaign for years, and he's a MINISTER, an Eagle Scout, a member of the National Guard, and a respected member of the community.

But he still makes time every week to sit down and run an adventure for some of us "young impressionable youth", (most of whom are Christians and also just nice people) who could instead be out drinking and driving, using drugs, stealing, fighting, or any other number of things.

Think on this, and then tell me how "evil" RPG's are.

~Avariel

Phil · Post by **Phil** » Thu Jan 25, 2001 4:55 am

Originally posted by Doltan:
Let me wipe off that MA is Interpreting British Spellings. How can you Brits survive with all of those extra letters (mediaeval, favour, honour)? My fingers get tired just typing all of the a's and u's.

So, what's so dangeOUrous about generaliSing about the crusades? Surely, the Catholic church can't still worry about such things?

We keep those extra letters just so that middle-class conservatives can pretend we're better to our trans-atlantic colleagues. "We have extra vowels in our words. We *must* be superior"

As for false history being dangerous...well, it's not really. It's just a way for historians to feel important

Phil · Post by **Phil** » Thu Jan 25, 2001 4:59 am

Originally posted by Drakron Du´Dark:
Phil were you in the crusades?
I like to say Thanks to the Crusades veterans that are still alive since they help to get the City were I live(Lisbon) from the moures.If were not for They I would have to speak arab.

Ah, but if it wasn't for the Moors in Spain and Portugal, you wouldn't have all of that wonderful architecture.

The Crusades in Spain were the first actual crusade, although not called as such, begun by Charlemagne around AD800 and immortalised in Le Chanson de Roland (although the true event this was based on was probably an attack by Basques and not Moors). The later Crusades in Spain have the equally wonderful Poem of The Cid as a source. Available in Penguin Paperbook from Amazon.co.uk

Phil · Post by **Phil** » Thu Jan 25, 2001 5:02 am

Originally posted by hermetic:
Hey Phil, I'm currently applying for the MA in Medieval Studies at U of Toronto. That where you went? Or are you a Cornell boy? Catholic University?

Erm, a few thousand miles out. King's College, London. Specialised in Magna Carta, Warfare and Crim/Criminal justice in 13th Century England.

Gruntboy · Post by **Gruntboy** » Thu Jan 25, 2001 5:07 am

Phil - why were the 2 points I stated any more dangerous than your 6? Some of us don't have time to get our course material out and write a mini-essay

Letters after your name don't impress me. Did I mention I did War Studies at King's College London? Put that in your pipe and smoke it, MA-boy!

Extra vowels aren't impressive neither. I'm ignorant and proud of it.

Snooty middle-class brits can say that, doesn't change the fact that the tommy-tanks won ther independence fair and square and Britannia's rule has been in decline ever since, to the point we are now a 3rd world country. Like I give a sh*t. They paid for those vowels in full with the blood of patriots

Phil · Post by **Phil** » Thu Jan 25, 2001 5:10 am

Originally posted by hermetic:
And I don't think the church had much to do with it, really, at least on a theological level. The powers-that-were back then knew full well what they were getting involved in against the Saracens and the reasons, as Phil pointed out, were all practical.

OK, last post before I start working. My first reason wasn't practical: "Religious Fervour". A 20th century perspective plays this down, but strong evidence suggests certain crusaders (e.g. Robert Curthose, son of a certain Norman Guillaume le Bartard) were there for the 'Crusade' and not the land. The Papal envoy, whose name escapes me, was also supposed to be genuinely outraged by some of the nobles rushing for bits of land. Mind you, that was the *1st* crusade. Things went downhill after that.

Finally, Saracens really only applied on & after the 3rd Crusade. 1st Crusade was against the Ummayadd Caliphate, except for Jerusalem, which had recently been taken from the U.C. by the Fatamid Caliphate. It's after the 3rd Crusade that scholars generally recognise the land/financial side totally take over from the religious motivation.

For a brilliant pocket history on the Crusades, Terry Jones (of Monty Python fame) has an excellent book called 'History of the Crusades', based on the BBC television series he presented. To reassure you, he is a genuine medieval scholar. He did a talk at my College: I missed it, I was in the bar

Phil · Post by **Phil** » Thu Jan 25, 2001 5:14 am

Originally posted by hermetic:
Viconia, on the verge of being burnt at the stake, is like a witch. In fact, Keldorn calls her as much literally. Keldorn's paladin kit, in turn, is named after the very type of person who enacted such acts against witches and Jews and other heathens in the middle ages, he's an inquisitor. What does he do? He ends up attacking Viconia if she doesn't leave the party within a day of Keldorn's word. I understand that there is a direct parallel with Korgan (chaotic evil) ultimately attacking Aerie (lawful good), but I still think there's something to be said for the clever plot twists of BG2. Little tidbits of this sort are brilliantly allegorical. That's why BG2 is so good...and Luciferian.

I think that's excellent, although inaccurate. Crusaders killed Heathens. Inquisitors could only act on members of their own faith; Keldorn ought to leave Viconia alone. Of course, he could leave himself, because of personal (alignment) differences.

Then again he could always do what the Spanish Inquisition did. They forced all the Jews to convert, and then discovered that they weren't being good Christians (they didn't know how to!!) and had them thoroughly, er, er, inquisited :}

Right, that's really it. History isn't as good as BGII! [Even if you don't re-roll

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