What about the U.S. makes you mad?

thantor3 · Post by **thantor3** » Mon Aug 27, 2001 10:24 am

I agree with Deke and want to expand that idea a bit. What makes me angry (vs mad because since I live in the US I am already certified

) about the "American way of life" is its narrow-minded selfishness and its overweening sense of entitlement. In my experience, Americans see access to resources as a right, not a privilige, which may explain why the per capital consumption of said resources is so high here. Along with this narrow-minded attitude about resources, there is also what I would call a attitude towards nature itself that is based on domination, rather than dominion. In other words, it is based on what can be extracted from nature as opposed to having a sense of stewardship towards it. Personally, I feel that many Americans have never emerged from adolescence (no doubt aided by the prevailing capitalistic mindset that seeks to keep us there), so it is not surprising to me that the pursuit of endless consumption and personal pleasure defines our culture. I really think it is time for us to grow up.

Happy Evil · Post by **Happy Evil** » Mon Aug 27, 2001 10:44 am

Originally posted by thantor3:
 ...so it is not surprising to me that the pursuit of endless consumption and personal pleasure defines our culture...

...and helps to fuel economies all over the world.

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Aug 27, 2001 10:44 am

@Thantor, unfortunately the attitude towards resources faithfully duplicates the attitudes that were common in the lands of American ancestry, mostly in Western Europe. France and Britain are good examples: they were once overrun by forests. But despite pleas in Britain that date back as far as Henry VIII, and calls for better forestry management and funding during the reign of Louis XIV, most of this "property" which had been regarded as "royal preserves" was auctioned off to industrialists and real estate dealers.

The problem is not I think so much one of global stewardship--let's face it, that is *never* going to be part of the urbanized culture's way of thinking, aside from select individuals--as it is a lack of awareness that galloping consumption of non-renewable resources will mean disaster. There is a mentality in much of the Euro-American world that enough resources remain for hundreds of years. As a result, hardly any federal investment has occured (despite promises of "billions" from both the Reagan and George Bush governments) to develop sustainable alternative sources of energy on a mass scale. The only real work in that field is coming from--guess where? Japan, and a few private corporations which see the long term results as highly profitable.

Vehemence · Post by **Vehemence** » Mon Aug 27, 2001 10:34 pm

Originally posted by Mr Sleep:
 I could have been even more corny but i thought it sounded at least vaguely sincere, you have to bear in mind i am a bloke so poetic words struggle to come to the top, without some prompting

Not with the right inspiration my friend... once you've got that, you'll be struggling to keep them from coming out...

Xandax: I think the US getting the games before the rest of the world is good. Gives them time to work out the bugs and have a patch already for when we get it

Movies on the other hand, that blows! Movies should be world wide releases.

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Tue Aug 28, 2001 5:39 am

So are you struggling with inspiration Veh?

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Tue Aug 28, 2001 7:07 am

is it true that americans have to swear alegiance to the flag?

well if its true then i dont like that kind of thing. I have the impression that americans are too nationalistic in their out look.

hope i didnt offend any one

Lets start a topic called:

What about europe makes you mad?

Happy Evil · Post by **Happy Evil** » Tue Aug 28, 2001 7:54 am

Originally posted by Tom:
is it true that americans have to swear alegiance to the flag?

well if its true then i dont like that kind of thing. I have the impression that americans are too nationalistic in their out look.

hope i didnt offend any one

Lets start a topic called:

What about europe makes you mad?

Some years ago, american children would recite what is called the "Pledge of allegiance" at the beginning of the day. My opinion is, though it was nationalistic, it was really an introduction of the ideals the founding fathers proposed in the Declaration of Independence.
Recently, The Pledge of Allegiance has been abandoned because of "seperation of church and state" issues.
So....
Place your hand over your heart, face the flag and recite as follows...
" I pledge allegiance, to the flag, of the United States of America. To the republic, for which it stands, one nation, under god, indivisible, with liberty, and justice for all."

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Tue Aug 28, 2001 8:05 am

i find that very strange no offence. it sounds like brainwashing or indoctrination of children.

if the country i was born in did something wrong i would fight it.

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Tue Aug 28, 2001 8:07 am

ohh and a biggie

the beer is like water.

Gwalchmai · Post by **Gwalchmai** » Tue Aug 28, 2001 9:09 am

Originally posted by Vehemence on the subject of poetry:
Not with the right inspiration my friend... once you've got that, you'll be struggling to keep them from coming out...

*Ak! Gag! Barf!*

Re: Bashing the US
Most of the problems cited in this thread are certainly true for the US, but I've got to think that other countries have their share of equivalent problems, similar in quality and quantity, if not actually the same problems.

Happy Evil · Post by **Happy Evil** » Tue Aug 28, 2001 9:13 am

Originally posted by Tom:
i find that very strange no offence. it sounds like brainwashing or indoctrination of children.

if the country i was born in did something wrong i would fight it.

Strange, to you maybe, but wrong? How is it wrong?
I remember as a kid thinking that the part that says "for which it stands" was one word. "forwhichitstands" Now thats strange.
I really dont see anything wrong with the pledge other than the alienation of many religions and atheists. IMHO, brainwashing involves initiating thoughts and ideas that are undesirable. An udesirable effect. I fail to see how this arrangement of words is offensive or undesirable especially if your from the US.

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Tue Aug 28, 2001 9:19 am

Originally posted by Happy Evil:
Strange, to you maybe, but wrong? How is it wrong?
brainwashing involves initiating thoughts and ideas that are undesirable. An udesirable effect. I fail to see how this arrangement of words is offensive or undesirable especially if your from the US.

indoctrination is wrong because it stops people from thinking on their own.

the content of Brain washing can be of any kind good or bad.

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Tue Aug 28, 2001 10:03 am

Originally posted by Tom:

indoctrination is wrong because it stops people from thinking on their own.

the content of Brain washing can be of any kind good or bad.

It is not indoctrination. The pledge of allegiance is just that. A pledge of alliegance.

The Freedom of Religion amendment is actually saying that Americans have the freedom to worship God however they feel is right as long as it is not illegal(i.e. sacrificing another human being, stealing, etc.), but people just look at the 'title' "Freedom of Religion" and ignore the actual meaning of that amendment. The seperation of church and state means that the government will not control the Christian churches and that the Christian churches would not control the government, which is what was going on in Spain, England, and other Roman Catholic countries. They were as much fighting for freedom from the Anglican and Roman Catholic churches as they were fighting for freedom from the English government. America's founding fathers were either all or almost all Christians and almost all of them were active members of their church.

I'm not saying that it's wrong for people to be able to be in other religions. I'm just explaining why the pledge of alliegance has "one nation, under God" and why America's official motto is "In God we trust," not that our nation follows that motto.

[ 08-28-2001: Message edited by: Sailor Saturn ]

Happy Evil · Post by **Happy Evil** » Tue Aug 28, 2001 10:19 am

Tom, we're talking about children! Do you have any? Do you let them make all of their own decisions? Parents generally think and make decisions for their young kids. This includes the schools they go to, and the methods used there. I, as a schoolkid, wasnt hustled off to camps to be made into a little nationalistic zombie.
It was just a thing.(<hows that for a power word)
Right after the pledge of allegiance, we would sing a song called "In the little red schoolhouse". Dont remember the words, but I'm sure someone could find some subliminal propaganda in it too.
IMHO, the pledges purpose was to instill the fact that this nation is founded on things such as "liberty" and "justice". Kinda cheesy and idealized I know. Yet harmless.
"Indoctrination" and "Brainwashing" are intimidating words. I would prefer to say "educating" as I dont percieve the pledge as brainwashing. If it was brainwashing, it wasnt very good.

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Tue Aug 28, 2001 10:30 am

Originally posted by Happy Evil:
Tom, we're talking about children! Do you have any? Do you let them make all of their own decisions? Parents generally think and make decisions for their young kids. This includes the schools they go to, and the methods used there. I, as a schoolkid, wasnt hustled off to camps to be made into a little nationalistic zombie.
It was just a thing.(<hows that for a power word)
Right after the pledge of allegiance, we would sing a song called "In the little red schoolhouse". Dont remember the words, but I'm sure someone could find some subliminal propaganda in it too.
IMHO, the pledges purpose was to instill the fact that this nation is founded on things such as "liberty" and "justice". Kinda cheesy and idealized I know. Yet harmless.
"Indoctrination" and "Brainwashing" are intimidating words. I would prefer to say "educating" as I dont percieve the pledge as brainwashing. If it was brainwashing, it wasnt very good.

If it was brainwashing, then teachers should recieve a lot more training in the 'art.' Though I am technically an American citizen(sp?), I do not consider myself an American. I even stated in another topic that I am not an American.

Happy Evil · Post by **Happy Evil** » Tue Aug 28, 2001 10:47 am

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn:
...Though I am technically an American citizen(sp?), I do not consider myself an American. I even stated in another topic that I am not an American.

I'll bite, what are you? Besides a person that is.
Do you have a clan or group of some sort?

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Tue Aug 28, 2001 11:38 am

Originally posted by Happy Evil:
I'll bite, what are you? Besides a person that is.
Do you have a clan or group of some sort?

On previous occasions(particularly right after that last presidential election), I would tell people that I am from the Republic of Texas. That was both a reminiscent and a hopeful outlook...but I've decided it's unrealistic. I am a Texan and damn proud of it. I cannot help it that some leader of Texas was stupid enough to let Texas join the United States of America. I'm also proud to state that I'm part Irish.

So, to answer your question, I could say I'm an Irish Texan. However, the Irish is merely an ancestral thing. You wouldn't be able to tell I'm Irish by looking at me. And, like it or not, Texas is just a state. I guess I'm the girl without a country and that's probably why I live on the lonely planet Saturn when I'm not here on Earth at college...

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Tue Aug 28, 2001 11:43 am

@SS there is an easy method to determine whether you are of irish decent, Guiness

Happy Evil · Post by **Happy Evil** » Tue Aug 28, 2001 11:52 am

I too (takes off his Stetson hat and holds it over his heart) am from Texas and shamelessly share in your sentiment.
Ahh love those suthin axe-cents. Yee-Haaw!

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Aug 28, 2001 12:50 pm

The small-minded yahooism that doesn't even recognize its own insularity bothers me. As an example (which I think I posted before), consider Miriam Amanda Wallace Ferguson, twice Governor of Texas. (The first time, she replaced her recently deceased husband.) Ferguson took a strong stand against the idea of making Texas bilingual. As she put it in a famous statement that is still quoted in some chambers, "If the Good Lord had meant us to speak Spanish, he would have written the Bible in Spanish instead of English."